Complaint Review: BBB

 I saw the comment one couldn't believe eBay & PayPal hid a transaction. They did with me, luckily I copied it because what happened to me shocked me. I'm a victim of bullying by eBay supervisor's. A buyer claimed we sold them fake Spy sunglasses and wanted a full refund. We copied our purchase receipt and sent it as our proof of authenticity buyer didn't contact us again but eBay didn't lift the freeze they set up on our PayPal account. When I complained eBay said buyer had 30 days to respond, this was news to me but we had never been accused of fraud and asked for a supervisor up higher on the ladder, next thing eBay ruled on buyers side. I filed a bbb report, a eBay rep called was really nice said they would allow us to charge our 20% restocking fee. Few days later I got the item back, buyer kept the fabric case there was nothing to refund because eBay had already taken the money out of our account but they took it again. I copied the transaction along with the original amounts they had already taken. Along with the new deduction came a nasty letter from customer service that if we couldn't afford to refund our buyers they would send us to a collection agency ! I was preparing a letter for my attorney and the attorney general and went back to the reference amounts and the first deduction had disappeared. I checked the math and the refund was 39.00 but they only took 1.43 from our PayPal account. This was only one of our complaints, we also have deductions for eBay giving works with no reference to what item it's for. We need that point of reference to know if the deduction could be for a returned item or no pay auction or best offer item. If we ask eBay they say we have to ask PayPal. If we ask PayPal they say ask eBay. The nice rep who called us gave us a gift certificate that equalled the amount of the unidentified charge but a few days later it happened again. As stated in the beginning of this post we are in shock. I can't believe eBay and PayPal have been so unscrupulous. We removed our expensive items we had for sale on eBay. Now we have another amount frozen for a return on an item that didn't fit. eBay had a note the freeze would be lifted if not returned by a certain date. That date has come and gone but our PayPal account is still showing the amount frozen .The amount, they froze is the full sales amount including the buyers shipping cost. The buyer chose an expensive 30.00 shipping option. We should only have to refund the cost of the item. We are sick about all these issues. We will no longer sell an item on eBay for more than 100.00 because like the ugly supervisor said if we can't afford to play by their rules we could be sent to a collection agency.

The WORST thing for the average consumer to purchase online...is a vehicle. Other then a house, it is the largest purchase/investment any of us will make.

There is no doubt that the biggest swindlers and scammesr in the USA are car dealers...so did you really think Ebay would protect you from that? 

The ONLY reason to even consider buying a vehicle from eBay motors..is either a) the deal is too amazing to pass up..or b) you are a PROFESSIONAL car dealer buyer/seller and see through the BS. 

I quoted what Ebay states regarding buying a vehicle from them which should be common sense to any grown up...but really spells it out so eloquently...I will quote it again but just the second paragraph which is PARAMOUNT to just about every eBay compliant... (BTW this is NOT my "bible" but how all of us should deal with this century if we think we are able to purchase stuff online..otherwise go to a store or dealer with someone holding your hand to guide you and punch you in the FACE if you are about to make a REALLY poor decision...)  What is REALLY so hard to understand here?????

"Please understand that the VPP program is not an insurance policy, a solution for buyer's remorse, or a substitute for buyer diligence (i.e. pre-purchase research and inspection). Therefore, we encourage you to perform appropriate research and exercise proper care and judgment in the purchase of any vehicle. "

There has been enough discussion in this post and everybody explaned their opinions and viewpoints in details. Obviously any further discussion is not going to add anything to the merit of this case. Posting here is not intended to prove or disprove any point. It is merely to give the authors opinion so I thank everybody and wish that this post has been informative for them.

So   what  is  this  "eBay Motors Vehicle Purchase Protection (VPP) program"  ????    A program  that  protects  the  buyer of  a vehicle  not  older  than 1 year  from a  seller between  32 and 34 years of age,   if  the  vehicle  was  purchased  3 days before full moon ?

Yeah,  we  all   understand,  Ronny  that  ebays  policies  and  regulations  are  like  the  bible  for  you  and  that any critizism is like blasphemia  for  you.   Purchase  protection  means  to  me  that  I  don't  have  to  worry  about  buying a car with undisclosed problems  that  can't  be  repaired.  

The  VPP  is  just  another  empty  promise  making  buyers  believe  that  Ebay  is  a  "safe haven".

But it is just too much fun.

To Steve. It sucks that you had problems with your car but the Buyer Protection is not a warranty.

Copied from ebay when you look up ebay motor buyers protection...

"The eBay Motors Vehicle Purchase Protection (VPP) program provides protection of up to $50,000 against certain losses associated with some types of fraud. You are automatically enrolled in the program at no charge when you complete the purchase of an eligible vehicle on the eBay Motors site (motors.ebay.com). 

Please understand that the VPP program is not an insurance policy, a solution for buyer's remorse, or a substitute for buyer diligence (i.e. pre-purchase research and inspection). Therefore, we encourage you to perform appropriate research and exercise proper care and judgment in the purchase of any vehicle. 

VPP is administered and managed by an independent service provider (the "VPP Administrator") that is not affiliated with eBay Inc ("eBay"). All VPP requests will be administered and processed by eBay and the VPP Administrator. The maximum reimbursement amount per vehicle is $50,000. 

These terms and conditions ("Terms and Conditions") shall govern your participation in the VPP program."

Now to the OP again...

All your complaints lodged on this website (Ebay, BBB, California AG) state in the title that Ebay is a criminal. We asked you to prove it and you did not even come close. So get over it. If your complaint it that you think the 45 day policy for disputes is not long enough for you that is fine. You have every right to complain about that. But it is not a criminal policy. As many of us have suggested to try to actually help you since the BBB and the AGs office do not care...take Ebay to small claims court. IF they committed a crime against you then you should prevail...or, come back here and lodge a complaint against small claims court.


As far as Robert....his problem with me started back when he said something to the effect that I always have to get the last word.

I told him yes if I believe I am right.

What the psycho thinks I said is "I am always right".

I never said or even implied that. So what does the genius do? Leave links to posts years old where I did get the last word believing I am right, or, posts where I made a mistake and admitted it. So what the heck did he prove? 

Answer: Nothing. All has has been doing since is being like a Karl spamming and hijacking other peoples threads and personal attacks against me, my hobbies, my business, my education etc. HE does NOT care about you or your complaint in the least..only if he can harass me here. That is his only intent so don't fall for it that he is on your side. Even he is not ignorant enough to see this report is not legit.


To the OP...


Good luck in your court case against Ebay.

We know by now all your sick arguments about defending ebay. Just go to another posts to whine there. Try to keep your word.

Mr Southern chemical just look up a bit and you will find a post by me telling Ronny that this is not the right post to discuss ebay under. He still hallucinates about ebay nevertheless. I have a separate post about ebay on this site. just look for it. When idiots like Ronny write here I have no choice but to respond and that really looks like this post as if it was about ebay.

Also if you read well all the posts you find that my questions about the BBB and the AG are related to the way they deal with public not because I expect them to do anything to ebay. My whole idea from posting here is to expose the practices of all those entities so the public know with whom they are dealing.

Obviously there are people who defend ebay and are pissed form my writings which is great. It is a major objective for me to piss ebay and its fans. I am entitled to my opinion and what I post or not. I am not losing anything from this. If someone doesn't like just switch to another report.

To the OP.



Nice try. But it appears that you are clueless, and that is the root of your problems.



First, you failed to read and understand the terms of your Ebay account regardin buyer protection and disputes. Plain old common sense would have told you to open a claim at the first sign of being strung along.



Second, you posted this complaint in a totally wrong category and against a party not involved. Ebay is not a "business consultant" and the BBB did not rip you off. Again, just being clueless. Your report chould have clearly been listed in some internet shopping category, and should have clearly listed the Ebay seller's info and named that person as the one who ripped you off. You failed to do that.



Third. Getting the AG involved. Like many others, you failed to understand the role and scope of authority of the Office of the State Attorney General. Not the place to handle individual, petty disputes. That is what civil courts are for.



Fourth. Only truly clueless people believe in the BBB. The BBB has no authority to do anything for anyone, and a BBB rating is worthless. You get what you "pay for" with the BBB. Accreditation is for sale.



Fifth, Your assumption that you would get some response from the Governor's Office! (You really are not that important). Really.



In the future, excercise more caution, and try to develop some basic common sense.



Move on.

that's   right:  Ebay's   buyer  protection  policy  basically  requires  the  buyer  to  file  his  claim  when  placing  the  order.   I  bought  a   car  which  was  still  under  the  manufacturer's  warranty  (Chevrolet)  and  now  after  having  taken  it  for  over 6  times  to  different  dealerships for  repairs  I  can't  file  a  "Ebay  Motors  claim"  anymore -   I  should  have  filed  my  claim  when  receiving  the  vehicle  and  before  taking  it  to  a  dealership  for  repair  attempts.

They are just an opportunity.  What is it that anyone can prove they "force"????????????

 Do they have the Sopranos with guns to our head? I simply can not grasp this from anything I have ever had to deal with using Ebay. I read the rules and comply. If I did not wish upon my own God given free will to comply, then I would simply decide not to use them. Why does this confuse some so much? 

I am surprised you finally grew a set and are willing to confront me head on.  I am uncomfortable with this kind of confrontation but will appease you...

ROZbert stated and I quote:


"You're still claiming to be a victim I see.  You made some posts about me that were lies, claiming a was mean to folks who had complaints about banks.  Nothing was further from the truth as I tried to HELP folks who were having bank issues.  You were a major pollutant of RoR and you frequently went on name calling rampages when someone such as I called out your nasty ways and lies.  I requested you post ONE report were as was mean to anyone with bank issues.  You couldn't do it because no such report exists.  Then and now you claim to be a victim.  You posted so much BS that it's unlikely that you can remember half of it."

I never claimed to be a victim. I was just sick and tired of you bank defending cowards BLAMING victims and what was the end result? Did not ANY and EVERYTHING I posted about the BANK ripoffs not come true? The law changes as far as auto enrolling in OD protection????  The re-sequncing of transactions? Are you REALLY THAT ignorant?  

"Remember this classic?  You posted a FALSE REPORT which effected an innocent business.  So typical of you at the height of your hypocrisy and lies (or was it the height of your drinking and posting?).  http://www.ripoffreport.com/internet-fraud/unknown/unknown-i-am-a-giant-sucker-f3568.htm"

Uh...I did NOT file a false report. I made a mistake and ADMITTED it by filing a report as "Unknown" but was clearly not aware there was a company called "unkown" who seems to have never complained further. Only you as a FEEBLE attempt to discredit me you f**king retard.. Anyone can see that if they actually care enough to go to that link.


"I'll give you credit, in that of late, you've been much more POLITE than you were a couple of years ago.  I suppose that is an improvement-perhaps you're laying off the sauce before you post.  However, you're still harassing folks with your pollution of RoR and as we see below, you continue to lie."

Sauce? Tomato?



"Another lie from the Cowardly Lyin.  Tell us Rozzy, when did you ever question my "failure" or ability using ebay?  The answer is NEVER.  When did I ever post that I even used Ebay, let alone had a "failure" with Ebay?  The answer is never.

What I did post is that you're beloved EBay (as well as your beloved Best Buy) had several lawsuits against them for what most folks would consider to be "shady" or illegal business practices."

Yea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Internet stalker ROZBERT found Best Buy and Ebay had lawsuits against them. Have you even bothered to read what the banks YOU and some other cumdumpsters were defending are dealing with???  Here, I will post some of it.... JUST FROM TODAY for example...would you like more??

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/07/bank-of-america-overdraft_n_1079924.html



"Tell us Rozzy, are you still schlepping under vehicle hoods checking car batteries?  Remember that one?  What company that installs satellite radio receivers and "smart start" alcohol detection/interlock systems hires an electrical engineer (BSEE or better degree) to schlep under engine hoods?  LOL."

What does satellite radio receivers have to do with alcohol detection interlock systems? Just because some of us have to actually get our hands dirty to help develop technology does not mean we are schleps you ignorant jackazz. What is it that you "claim" to do again Rozbert?

Granted you scare me because you are a KNOWN internet stalker and have some kind of obsession with me and want so badly to discredit me..I am up for this challenge because you are such a losing d****e bag and I can debate you in my sleep.

...at least you are rationalizing the situation a bit unlike Ronny who thought by talking nonsense he was going to impose his viewpoint on everybody.

In my situation the seller kept giving me all kinds of false promises and was lying to me with sweet talk like: Dont worry we are working on your order, we are checking with the post office, we will let you know as soon as we find out. we will ship your order soon. we are going to ship tomorrow.  It turned out that he was buying time to pass the deadline. After that he stopped responding to me completely.  What do you call that?? Why would I file a case against someone who was fully cooperating with me and responding to all my emails with enthusiasm and dedication?? Why should I assume that he was lying to me?. You said that the buyer should "file a claime right away" but this requires assumption that the seller is lying to me. At that time I had no reason to believe so. I expected ebay to realize the fraudulent behavior of that seller and be firm with him but they stuck to their policy and did nothing. I am sure that the seller will play the same trick with other buyers in the future.

I believe ebay is not handling such issues properly. A seller like that should not stay on eBay if they were to be honest to their customers but they proved they don't give a d**n. In addition they lied to me about their no reply email address which turned out to be not true. All that adds to the fact that they are not honest people and dealing with them is risky. I have alternatives and I am going to take my business elsewhere.

As for the BBB there has been a consensus here that their rating is worth crap that is why they need to be exposed to the public. This is the purpose of this report.

Millions  and  Millions  of  flies  adore  sh*t,   they  can't   be  wrong....

and  what's   the  point  about  sellers  who  complain  that  they  received  bogus  checks ?    it's  not  Ebay's   problem  and  it  never  was.   it  is  the  seller's  responsibility,   he  had the option  of choosing "PayPal  only".  Now  the option of "PayPal only"  is the only option besides of  taking the business somewhere else.   What  about  if  you  had  the  option  of  voting  for  Obama  and  for  nobody  else  (in  order  to  protect  you  from  making  a  bad  decision...) ?

Now,  when  using PayPal as a  "guest"  they are telling me "it's  not our problem"  when something goes wrong.  So if  they care so much about  the poor buyer who has a problem with his order,  why don't  they forbid   to  use  PayPal   as  a "guest"  to protect  this unfortunate seller ?

The BBB's only purpose is to protect any business that gives them money --- period!  Complaints are better handled through the Federal Trade Commission, including complaints about the BBB itself.

I don't think the sarcasam should be nit-picked. It's just good fun and I don't think it should distract everyone from the Key issues in this report.

To Steve from Mesa: The issue with the checks and money orders made things complicated for many sellers. The fact is that there were hundreds of thousands of complaints to ebay from sellers who claimed they rceived bounced checks and bogus money orders. The ammount of complaints probably outnumberd the ammount of people who didn't have issues. So in the end honest people like yourself got stuck being a victim of ebays policy.

I'm a frequent buyer of autographs on ebay. I do know that ebay tries to combat fraud but sometimes sellers do use ebays policy their advantage to screw people. Buyers have to be aware that if they do not receive an item or if the seller is trying to buy time such as "I'm sorry your item is out of stock at this time but we will receive it again in 90 days"............file a claime right away. Again...this was designed to help protect sellers from extortionary methods from buyers. The only thing that I'm trying to point out with this is that no matter what ebay attempts to do.....no matter how good its intentions are someone in some way is going to get screwed.

As for BBB: its pretty much a waste of time. They may have an A+ rating for the simple fact that they may respond to 96 or 97% of the complaints however any complaint that involves their policy they will ignore. If you ask ebay to make an exception for you regaurding your complaint then ebay would have no choice but to do it for everyone. As far as what Ronnie is saying about the transactions vs bad transactions on ebay he is probably right. Lets say there are 40,000 complaints made to the BBB about ebay vs 5 trillion good transactions: you can pretty much see for yourself that allthough 40,000 complaints is a big number but when compared to the 5 trillion good transactions that its just a really bad fart on a windy day. No matter how bad it is: no one would smell it.

On another note ebay basicly forces you to agree with the terms, conditions, and policys upon opening an account and that's another reason why your complaint is falling on deaf ears. If I were in your position I would go after the seller.

....it is certainly you Mr Ronny. You have all the symptoms. Added to that you are paranoid and think everybody is having vendetta with you. The only purpose that your posts here serve is to show your sick mentality and sick argument. You can see there is a big contrast between your style and everybody's else. Too bad you are leaving my posts, I wont have the pleasure to pound you anymore. Go find somewhere else where you can show your sick attitude.

......when it comes to Robert from Buffalo. To put it mildly he is a psychopathic internet stalker and has some kind of obsession with me.  And this has been proven over time on this website.

You're still claiming to be a victim I see.  You made some posts about me that were lies, claiming a was mean to folks who had complaints about banks.  Nothing was further from the truth as I tried to HELP folks who were having bank issues.  You were a major pollutant of RoR and you frequently went on name calling rampages when someone such as I called out your nasty ways and lies.  I requested you post ONE report were as was mean to anyone with bank issues.  You couldn't do it because no such report exists.  Then and now you claim to be a victim.  You posted so much BS that it's unlikely that you can remember half of it. 

Remember this classic?  You posted a FALSE REPORT which effected an innocent business.  So typical of you at the height of your hypocrisy and lies (or was it the height of your drinking and posting?).  http://www.ripoffreport.com/internet-fraud/unknown/unknown-i-am-a-giant-sucker-f3568.htm

I'll give you credit, in that of late, you've been much more POLITE than you were a couple of years ago.  I suppose that is an improvement-perhaps you're laying off the sauce before you post.  However, you're still harassing folks with your pollution of RoR and as we see below, you continue to lie.

He also does not like that I question why he fails using Ebay.

Another lie from the Cowardly Lyin.  Tell us Rozzy, when did you ever question my "failure" or ability using ebay?  The answer is NEVER.  When did I ever post that I even used Ebay, let alone had a "failure" with Ebay?  The answer is never.

What I did post is that you're beloved EBay (as well as your beloved Best Buy) had several lawsuits against them for what most folks would consider to be "shady" or illegal business practices.

Tell us Rozzy, are you still schlepping under vehicle hoods checking car batteries?  Remember that one?  What company that installs satellite radio receivers and "smart start" alcohol detection/interlock systems hires an electrical engineer (BSEE or better degree) to schlep under engine hoods?  LOL.

......when it comes to Robert from Buffalo. To put it mildly he is a psychopathic internet stalker and has some kind of obsession with me.  And this has been proven over time on this website. He also does not like that I question why he fails using Ebay.

If that is the kind of person you want to be on your side out of the millions of Ebay users...I wish you luck.  

Good luck with your BBB and AG reports. I am done here as once this Robert nut gets involved he makes Karl seem normal. That is scary actually. Now go sue Ebay.

....problem for you Gentleman_10, is that I am not pissed. I do not care if you think Ebay sucks and is a criminal. No one here does. 

All I asked for was proof and got nothing. So of the millions of people who use it per day without problems... I hope that you , and Steve and Rozbert can fix Ebays problems with your nonsense.

I know in your delusional state you think Ebay is "my" company...but it is not.  Yes I stated I am the owner of Ebay but if you believe that, or believe that I was serious about that...then you have bigger problems. Stop buying stuff online from China please to prevent scams. That is all.

Thanks Robert that was funny. Diagnosis for Ronny: Dementia with touch of dyslexia (medical word for inability to read) and mania. He wants to impose his views on everybody and if they dont agree with him they have "vendetta" against him. However, I am not going to give him even the pleasure of having the last word. I am going to keep hammering him until he shuts up COMPLETELY so may be he learns NEVER to interfere in my posts again. Lets see if he learns that.

Read his links. I am an Izdiot.

Gentleman-10:  You're wasting your time attempting to discuss anything with Ronny G (aka The Wizard of Roz.)  His reading comprehension deficit is legendary on RipOff Report.  Don't take my word for it.  You can read a sterling example of this bozo's ability here; http://www.ripoffreport.com/websites/price-shuffle/price-shuffle-scam-149-95-a-faf28.htm

If you need more laughs, simply search RipOff Report (advanced search-rebuttals) for "wizard or roz" and you'll most likely end up wetting your pants!  LOL!

You see, Ronny considers it a "win" if he gets the last word.  It doesn't matter if he's wrong as long as he gets the last word.  Enjoy!

Steve:  I'm surprised you're wasting your time with Rozzy-I know you know better!  LMAO.

This is quite interesting info Steve. There are two ways to deal with such people; either take them to court when it is feasable or expose them to the public to the fullest capacity. Contact newspapers and tell them what happened and cite those laws that you did. That will devastate the crooks in the BBB and everywhere. Public exposure is very powerful way.

I  have  contacted  the  BBB  in  Honolulu  several  times  and  asked  them  to  correct  the  information about  Hawaiian Airlines  which  states  "No  government  actions  against this company  are  known"

In  fact  this  is  not  true:   In 2009  they  were  fined $ 50,000 in civil penalties  for  unfair and deceptive  practices.  Consent  Order  2009-8-4   issued  by The Department of  Transportation  on  Aug., 10,  2009  (OST-2009-0001)

Violation  of   14 CFR  Part 257  and  49 U.S.C.   41712.   This is  publick  information and it  can be  looked up  on the  FAA  website.

I  contacted  Mr.  Sonnenberg  of the  BBB  several  times,  giving  him  this  information, so that  they can't say "we  didn't  know about  it."  However, my  emails are  being  ignored.  Nothing  has  been updated  or  changed on  their  website.

You are right Builder, anyone can notice that but Mr ebay (Ronny) is pissed from facing this reality. He doesn't like it that his company is being exposed along with the crooks in BBB who are protecting it. The poor man is going nuts.

  Business pay for that rating. You can screw over the entire world and still receive a A+. BBB is an absolute joke.

You are just hallucinating like a maniac who doesnt know what he is doing or saying. You are extremely pissed off because of my complaint against your company and I am glad you are. I am going to continue to piss you off every step in the way. I will continue going after ebay and its crooks. Eat your heart out. I am sure the readers will notice what kind of people run ebay and how easily they can be pissed off when complaining against them. To piss you even more here are more competitors for ebay for people to use instead; amazon.com, upillar.com, buy.com, pricegrabber.com,
http://cj.shop.com, http://shopping.yahoo.com  just bank your head against the wall, OK?

..but what is not clear to me is if this report is about Ebay?, or is not about Ebay? Or both?. Or is it "kind of" about Ebay.. or not? Or is it that you have a vandeatta against Ebay and since you were not satisfied and decided to lodge complaints here against the BBB and California AG thinking in your own mind that this would help you with your failed Ebay China camera purchase you decided to make and no one here really gives a crap?  So you mention "mock"? Yes..of course you are going to get mocked and teased online when you act a fool. That goes without saying.

I have stated here my association with Ebay. I am m Ebay buyer and seller. That is all. Or maybe I am the owner and have nothing better to do then deal with your stupid complaint against Ebay for your China camera purchase in the Arab land?. Paypal, the BBB and California Attorney General???

What planet do you live on?????  Heck I am just playing with you like a wind up doll. I wonder how hard it would be for some scammer from freaking China to scam you....but, why worry about that? Ebay got you protected.

Idiot.

It is clear that you are associated with ebay somehow but you are lying about it. Defending them like a raging bull, knowing the details of their stats and what they considered doing or not doing, added to that the stubborn, tenacious mentality that you enjoy, all that speaks volumes of your association with them.

Not surprised to see you mocking my suggestions. You and ebay are locked on what is right and dont have the mental flexibility that allows you to  accept suggestions.

I have vendetta against ebay?? This is the most stupid thing you ever said. My only dealing with ebay was that transaction so where is the vendetta coming from? I was actually willing to continue dealing with them if they correct the situation and force the seller to send me the camera but they were completely stubborn, exactly like you.

If you look up again you find me pointing out that this is a post about the BBB  and should not discuss ebay here, but you continued that discussion. You seem to have problem understanding what is written.

You keep your mentality and I will continue exposing ebay to the public and continue to go after the crooks who protect them.

Now go find some documentation of how many complaints there are per YEAR against Ebay...and do the math.  Why not lodge a complaint against President Obama too? Not that I am a fan of his...but surely he should do something to stop this horrible crime against you buying  a camera from China online? Oh wait...he may not have much jurisdiction in the UAE?

Again me being a sarcastic p***k at times admit I am not infallible. But I can tell the difference between someone with a vendetta, and someone reporting a legitimate crime.

How could you not tell that when I stated I was the owner of Ebay it was not TOTAL obvious sarcasm?  Not even the lowest of customer service employees respond here to ANY Ebay or Paypal complaints...even if a legit one ever came up.

You are losing this debate and clutching at straws. And the fact that you think I was serious when I said I was the owner of Ebay PROVES beyond the shadow of a doubt you do NOT have the wisdom, hindsight, foresight or basic intelligence to be shopping online....locally or international. For your OWN good always shop with someone holding your hand or sending you reminders NOT to be a fool. And if you listen to them, you may not have to come here lodging reports against the BBB or Attorney General.

The ONLY thing I use the BBB for is to read complaints. The ratings mean nothing anymore. IF someone else wishes to debate me on that fact then I will be more then up for the challenge.

The answer to this is that those 3500 complaints are filed in Silicon Valley BBB only. There must be many others filed in other BBB offices arround the country. Also, many transactions are done internationally in 30 countries (as the BBB told me) so those from other countries may not know this venue to complain, therefore the actual complaint rate is much higher than what it seems. When I presented this argument to the BBB they did NOT answer back. As I mentioned earlier, the BBB gives A+ rating to ebay even though they admit that they do not answer complaints timely. This alone should be a reason to drop their ratings. If you read above also you find that Mr Ronny who claims to be the owner of ebay admitted that the BBB rating could be bought by money so what else do I have to say???

The bottom line is that ebay is a company that doesnt care about customer's satisfaction. Losing a case of clear theft just because of the deadline is not an honest practice. A court action would be appropriate but may require a class action if I have a good number of people who have similar grievances. That will at least cause enough publicity to expose ebay practices. ebay is sticking to the literal legality of its practice instead of using honesty with customers.

First of all, I am NOT the owner of Ebay. That was clearly sarcasm. I am just a person who uses Ebay. I also have stated they are not perfect but that I do not seem to have any problems with them as far as buying and selling. But I am really really cautious.

As far as your reply I will try to respond as best I can...

You seem to like making fan fares. How do I know you are the owner of ebay?

Next question: Are you Jewish??...just wondering.

Not Jewish or religious. Just American.

From the beginning you didnt sound like someone who is willing to listen or take suggestions or correct the situation. You were adamant that ebay is right and those whose transactions went wrong are wrong. You and ebay have the mentality of not giving a d**n about the customers' satisfaction and have the "take it or leave it" attitude. This is what I find a deviation from most other American companies.

What does it matter what country. Every business has their rules and you take it or leave it. That is how it works. Now at least in America which is all I can speak for, if any business big or small is really conducting crimes or has ethics issues and don't make good, they end up in a lawsuit and settle. We do not depend on the BBB or the AG to make these decisions...we sometimes have to fight this as nothing but mear citizens but thankfully do have some rights here.

Send an email to all parties involved 1 week before the deadline to remind them to file a case if their transactions haven't been concluded properly. Right now ebay discourages parties from filing cases and encourages them to "talk" to each other. I was fooled by that encouragement and believed the seller's lies that he was going to correct the situation.

Why should they have to send a remider? What are they an alarm clock? And even if they did you have to know anyone on the losing end would say they never got the email or their computer was broken etc. Not something Ebay wants to be held accountable for and I do not blame them.

Extend the deadline to file a case to at least 60 days since international transactions take much longer than American ones.

Now on this one you may have a valid point. I have not done too many international transactions. Well I have not nor will EVER buy international..but I have sold only because the buyer pleaded with me..I did not really want to and it is not my policy. I took every precaution possible but was aware I could get screwed since I am not an expert on international trade laws...but that was my choice; If it failed I would not blame ebay or the other counties BBB if the have one or their AGs. I would write it off as lesson learned and never do it again.

Give up the "beating around the bush" mentality and be straight forward to customers. Don't say that this is a no reply email while it is not, and dont require phone calls to discuss things in an obvious attempt to evade making written statements. Customers feel dishonesty immediately and lose trust with the business that beats around the bush.

I have no comment on this one that would do anything but upset you so I will leave it.

Allow filing feedback for indefinite period of time not just the transaction deadline and let the ratings be real not artificial like now. When a crook knows he wont be negatively rated after the deadline he tries to pass that deadline by sweet lies and then relax after the deadline. When the rating is real, the crooks are exposed and people drop them as choices. This way ebay wont have headache with them since crooks who mess up once are prone to mess up again and again which becomes a source of headache to ebay. It is to ebay advantage to let those crooks be properly rated in order to have a peace of mind later.I don't know what other situations can cause a dispute in order to make suggestions about them but the golden rule is: Honesty at all times!!. Whenever there are critical rules for a certain transaction, it is crucial to send a reminder email of those specific rules to parties concerned. People may not care to make extensive readings of fine prints and between the lines before making transactions. For the example Steve gave, you could have sent an email reminding him from the beginning that guest transactions are not covered by any guarantee. He could be given a choice from the beginning to go ahead with the transaction or decline. This way he will have no surprises later. I believe most disputes could be avoided if the rules were explained well from the beginning. 

This is probably something Ebay has considered but wisely did not implement it. Imagine for example someone purchases an item...is happy with it and leaves a perfect feedback. Then 3 months later they drop it and want the seller to replace it and claims it is a defect. Seller says to go to hell so then the buyer tries to hold Ebay accountable. Nope not gonna happen. If you really want that kind of protection shop retail.

All that being said, if you dont change your "take it or leave it" attitude, nothing can be fixed at ebay. So you need to start with that first and foremost.

If someone has what I feel is a legitimate complaint I would never say take it or leave it. I have not heard one yet. And my attitude has nothing to do with Ebays policies or your problem with them . I am just expressing my opinions and right to speech here and it happens to be based off of my personal experience as an Ebay user...but this does not mean I am claiming to be or am in any way infallible. Prove your case. And as well I could accuse you of fraud in a sense for trying to guise your complaints against Ebay here as reports against the BBB and the California AG's office. It is so blatantly obvious you have some kind of vendetta against Ebay and trying anything to hold them accountable for something you most likely did wrong. Would it make you feel any better if I sent you a reminder that you probably messed up?

Why not lodge a complaint against this website for not helping you as well...I can see that coming next.

In terms of the BBB - NEVER expect the rating to change, not simply because of your complaint or anyone else's for that matter, nor in terms of BBB being paid membership fees by E-Bay.  Your problem is one of immateriality.  Given the number of transactions E-Bay does in a year, 3500 is less than nothing, even if all 3500 happen to be legitimate (80%-90% of all complaints are NOT legitimate, including yours), the number pales in comparison to the number of transactions performed per year.

If you think you have a case, file a small claims suit against E-Bay.

You seem to like making fan fares. How do I know you are the owner of ebay?

Next question: Are you Jewish??...just wondering.

From the beginning you didnt sound like someone who is willing to listen or take suggestions or correct the situation. You were adamant that ebay is right and those whose transactions went wrong are wrong. You and ebay have the mentality of not giving a d**n about the customers' satisfaction and have the "take it or leave it" attitude. This is what I find a deviation from most other American companies.

Just since you asked, that is what I would do if I were you:

1. Send an email to all parties involved 1 week before the deadline to remind them to file a case if their transactions haven't been concluded properly. Right now ebay discourages parties from filing cases and encourages them to "talk" to each other. I was fooled by that encouragement and believed the seller's lies that he was going to correct the situation.



2. Extend the deadline to file a case to at least 60 days since international transactions take much longer than American ones.



3. Give up the "beating around the bush" mentality and be straight forward to customers. Don't say that this is a no reply email while it is not, and dont require phone calls to discuss things in an obvious attempt to evade making written statements. Customers feel dishonesty immediately and lose trust with the business that beats around the bush.



4. Allow filing feedback for indefinite period of time not just the transaction deadline and let the ratings be real not artificial like now. When a crook knows he wont be negatively rated after the deadline he tries to pass that deadline by sweet lies and then relax after the deadline. When the rating is real, the crooks are exposed and people drop them as choices. This way ebay wont have headache with them since crooks who mess up once are prone to mess up again and again which becomes a source of headache to ebay. It is to ebay advantage to let those crooks be properly rated in order to have a peace of mind later.

I don't know what other situations can cause a dispute in order to make suggestions about them but the golden rule is: Honesty at all times!!. Whenever there are critical rules for a certain transaction, it is crucial to send a reminder email of those specific rules to parties concerned. People may not care to make extensive readings of fine prints and between the lines before making transactions. For the example Steve gave, you could have sent an email reminding him from the beginning that guest transactions are not covered by any guarantee. He could be given a choice from the beginning to go ahead with the transaction or decline. This way he will have no surprises later. I believe most disputes could be avoided if the rules were explained well from the beginning.

All that being said, if you dont change your "take it or leave it" attitude, nothing can be fixed at ebay. So you need to start with that first and foremost.

Gentleman_10  is  right,   obviously  you  work  for  Ebay's   public  relations  department.   Ebay  sucks  and   many  users  a  just  getting  sick  of  their  way  of  patronizing  them.   The  "buyer's  protection"   argument  is  just  a  pretext  -   they  care  a  s**t  about  it,  the  true  reason  is  that  they  own  PayPal  and  don't   want  their  users  to  get  around  it   because  of  the  lost  revenue.  They  also  own  about 50%  of  Craigslist,   that's  the  reason  why  Craigslist  has  some  stupid  policies  like  for  example  that  you  can't   offer  anything  nationwide  or  worldwide,   they  don't  really  want  it  to  compete  with  Ebay.  Ebay  is  losing  users  and  hopefully  it  will  lose  marketshare  to  competitors  like  Upillar.com  in  the  next  years.

I am the owner of Ebay.

Now with that out of the way let's pretend I did not personally insult you and then you can stop personally attacking me. 

What do you suggest other then complaining here can be done to better improve the way Ebay operates but yet not cause them excessive risk?

...that means anything but you are the one who is bragging that you can make a good judgment and can make "simple on line transactions" and calling everyone else an idiot and making excuses to ebay for every stupid policy that they have and trying to push hard that they are not crooks. You are Mr Know it all and others dont know anything. This is simply not working. Your views are obviously skewed and you seem to be associated with ebay in some way. Correct me if I am wrong. We are simply not buying your arguments.

As far as buying something as a "guest",,,I think it is wise of them not to offer protection. What do they know about this "guest"? All they know is the guest may screw them and you over...and then you will cry it is their fault and would try to leave Ebay holding the bag yelling "buyer protection! wahh!!" Could happen...no?. Who needs that headache or would be stupid enough to take that risk?

 Let the guest get their own account or.... use yours but forfeit the protection if they and/or you so choose to risk it. Simple enough. Why couldn't your "guest" get their own account? Maybe that is the bigger question?

..They only care about you or anyone else as a CUSTOMER....they are a BUSINESS, not your mom or a charity. Their rules and regulations and policies are not difficult to understand. If you like checks and money orders don't use Ebay then. Craigslist is waiting lol. If they really thought it was wise or safe, why would they forbid it?

Yes they get a paypal fee since they own paypal...but they make the bulk of their profit by listing and sellers fees. This means in all logic that for them to survive and prosper, SUCCESSFUL transactions need to be conducted....not disputes and bannings. If anyone is a risk to them they ban. If you want to take risks that is your choice but how would Ebay know YOU are not some kind of scammer trying to circumvent their protection systems? Sometimes they make a decision that not dealing with some customers or forms of payment is better then keeping them and risking loss.

Got a better, safer why for them to conduct their business? Please post it or suggest it to them and if it makes sense perhaps they will change something.

As far as Mr. Judgment it is not a matter of my Judgment that means anything. I don't claim to be perfect but I am not the one here crying I got ripped off and can not prove it and bought something from another country yet failed to protect myself. Judgement.

Ohh,   Ebay  cares  so  much  about  me,  more  than  my  mother...   I  am  really  touched.

If  you  want  to find out   what   "buyer  protection"  means  to Ebay,  just  buy  something  using  PayPal    as   a  "guest".
If  something  goes  wrong  Ebay  will  tell  you  "You  used  PayPal  as  a  guest  -  you   have  to  contact  paypal  directly.   Then  PayPal  will  tell  you  "You  used  PayPal  as  a  guest,  there  is  no  buyer  protection  if  you  don't  have  an  account with  us...."

You are still trying to convince us that you are the only smart guy with good judgment and can make a simple online transaction while other cant. We believe you!. Congratulations! However we are not buying your argument, even though you are pushing for it too hard, that ebay are not crooks. You just keep using ebay but we will stop.

....and that is all well and good. Perhaps you have good judgement.

The problem is so many people do not have good judgement and can't even conduct a simple online transaction without drama and fighting and disputes and threats and getting ripped off...Just read though this website a little and tell us people are using good judgement.

So Ebay in a feeble attempt to protect itself and it's users has determined that checks and money orders are unsafe. I am glad they do not allow that form of payment anymore since all it did was allow idiots to get ripped off and then cry to ebay """wahhhhh...you said I had protection"""...So, you want protection...don't take checks or money orders. I commend them for this, not condemn them.

I  accepted  checks  and  money  orders  for  years  and  wasn't  screwed  a  single  time.   It  should  be  the  seller's decision  to  choose  the  form  of  payment,  it's  not  Ebay's   business.

STEVE WROTE:

"This is what Ebay used to  be:  an intermediary.  Now in these days I can't decide anymore if I want to take the risk to accept checks or money orders from buyers,  I have to use PayPal.  (For "My own protection" )  - " 

YES EXACTLY!!!   Ebay is warning you not to do this or you might be screwed. So IF YOU decide to be an idiot, don't expect them to cover it and cry here about it. Seems SO simple. Checks and money order have NO PLACE in THIS century or to be used for online transactions. As far as money orders..there are probably more complaint here regarding fraud then we could count. As far as checks in this day and age you are willing to send out a document that has your name. address, bank routing number and bank account number on it?? That would be EXTREMELY foolish and why would Ebay want to be responsible for that? They would not so they are WARNING you and even forbidding it so they don't take the heat and you don;t get screwed, or screwing over them or others as well. I would say you should THANK them for trying to protect you from making a REALLY REALLY bad decision if you are truly ethical and not trying to get over on them or members.

"Ebay is so concerned about me losing my money that they  are  telling me not to accept personal checks or  money orders, they are like mom and dad instructing their 6 year old  son...." 

NO, they are not so concerned about you. Who are you that they should be? They are a BUSINESS....not a charity. They are simply trying to profit and in a feeble attempt to protect idiots...WARN them of forms of payment they they do not consider safe and will not provide protection against. DO you really think they want to deal with you calling them up and crying that a check did not clear or a money order was a fake? That is NOT what they are in business to do.  

  "In Germany  they are starting to force buyers into making payments directly to Ebay  and  then  the  seller  has to wait until   the money is forwarded  (or  not).  i know a bunch of people with 500 transactions or more who have closed their ebay accounts in response."

Then this is how Germany has determined is the best way to deal with scammers. If users in Germany don't like it, then I would certainly hope they excersize their right to close the account. Jeez what do you think Ebay is...some kind of company put on Earth to protect idiots from making bad decisions and scammers?

...this report is about eBay?

I didnt say the rating should be changed because of the 3500 complaints per year. I said it is because the woman who answered my email from BBB admitted that ebay are behind on their responses to us and we keep reminding them to do so This means that ebay doesnt give a d**n about the BBB but still got top rating. How can that be?? The BBB further say on their site that the rating is based on the way they deal with complaints and the way they
settle them. This is off course a lie. I discovered that myself from dealing with the BBB.

As for filing a case with ebay before the deadline it would be prudent but I was trusting the seller who kept giving me false promises and I never expected ebay to be complacent. I have closed my account and will never do any transaction with ebay because they were lying to me and didnt show any interest in solving the problem. They deleted the possibility of giving
feedback which should never be deleted. A feedback should be given anytime since the transaction was done already. Ebay can force the seller to make a settlement in 5 minutes but they didnt want to. They dont deserve to be trusted in any other transaction. I have much better alternatives on the net who really care abut their customerss satisfaction and I will take my business there. Ebay deviates from all other american companies standards in customers satisfaction.

This is what Ebay used to  be:  an intermediary.  Now in these days I can't decide anymore if I want to take the risk to accept checks or money orders from buyers,  I have to use PayPal.  (For "My own protection" )  -   Ebay is so concerned about me losing my money that they  are  telling me not to accept personal checks or  money orders, they are like mom and dad instructing their 6 year old  son....   In Germany  they are starting to force buyers into making payments directly to Ebay  and  then  the  seller  has to wait until   the money is forwarded  (or  not).  i know a bunch of people with 500 transactions or more who have closed their ebay accounts in response.

And agree they suck. But I am not a representative of ebay or paypal nor an attorney or employee but a concerned user. You state in the title they are crooks so I would like to know if this is true.

I can not imagine ebay or paypal deleting traces of a transaction. If they did I would see a HUGE problem with that. Since ebay and paypal make money from transactions what would be the reason they would delete a transaction and hide all evidence of it? It is counter productive for them to do this. Are you 100% sure you were on the legitimate ebay and paypal sites because scammers have been known to make phony sites that look identical and paste legitimate logos but have nothing to do with ebay or paypal. Can you post any of these webpages and emails?

Trust me you don't need to post much evidence to convince anyone on this site that the BBB as become a scam and does protect criminals...but you used your experience with what you claim is ebay and paypal to make your point that the BBB is protecting criminals and it simply makes no sense at all.

Asking the BBB to change Ebay's rating just based on the fact that they receive 3500 complaints a year is unfounded when you see the massive numbers of transactions completed every year on ebay.  I understand that you had an unsatisfactory experience and you feel as if your complaint was ignored but, and this isn't an excuse, with a company the size of ebay it is easy for a single issue to be lost.

My recommendation for future transactions if you ever do use ebay again is to file your grievances early.  If you are getting close to the 45 day cut off point take the time to file the complaint, Ebay will give you the chance to continue working with the seller or buyer while still having an open case and if the issue gets resolved you can close the complaint, in the case that it isn't you have an open complaint that was started within ebays given timeframe and ebay will review the issue.

I personally have been using Ebay for about 6 years now and i have had issues with sellers twice, never once have i had an issue with ebay not helping in the dispute process and the one time where the 45 day window was coming to a close i opened my dispute and when the seller failed to deliver i continued with it, no issue.

As to Ebay deleting your transaction, this happens to all transactions after a couple of months because they do not have infinite server space so it is unavoidable.

...You are supposed to understand well what is written. I didnt say they deleted my feedback. I said they deleted all traces of the transaction with the seller so I could never file a feedback. There is a big difference. Obviously that is OK with you. You dont see a problem here. Right?

Also I said  you are turning this post into discussion about ebay although it is about the BBB and didnt say you are the one Making this report about Ebay obviously you dont notice
the difference.

I also said that 2 kinds of behaviours make me believe they are crooks:

a) They pretended that their customer's service email is no-reply and wont be read and wanted me to call them on the phone to provide verbal statements and avoid written ones but when I replied and threatened to complain they responded from the same email that they said they dont read.
b)
They removed all traces of the transaction with that seller from their site so it couldn't be verified and I couldn't provide feedback about that seller. All this tells me that this company adopts fraud as a regular behavior.

As far as the evidence you are talking about I have copies of web pages from ebay site and have copies of email sent to me saying that they dont read from a certain email address but they came back and resopnded from the same address that they dont read from!!

By the way, I made ebay aware of my report about them on this site but they havent rebutted it. They dont seem to have what to say. Only you are acting as their attorney and big enthisiast. Congratulations!.

Obviously their irregular behavior is OK with you. Keep using ebay, that is fine with me but I will stop because I dont want to be ripped off again. The readers will make their own mind.

Again, stop using this post to talk about ebay. This is a post about the BBB!!

Making this report about Ebay when it is about the BBB? This is the title of your report and I quote...

"BBB Better Business Bureau of silicon valley, CA The BBB is protecting crooks like ebay and paypal in San Jose California Internet"

So I agree with you that the BBB might be protecting crooks but you also called ebay and paypal crooks and I disagree. So I have a right to reply, comment or question it here.

If ebay deleted any feedback you left on a seller they must of had a darn good reason to do that. Maybe you do not agree with the reason all well and good but we know nothing of the circumstances. Maybe you are simply a disgruntled buyer and lost a dispute. So you came here to get revenge but present NO evidence whatsoever against the companies you are slandering. I only notice that ebay has a rating system that is not what ebay or paypal decides, but is based solely on feedback left by its users. How some can not even do that right is beyond me.

As far as the racist comment I never said I did not like Arabs. And I never said I did not like the Chinese. I commented based on the info you left here. But that is irrelevant since this discussion is here to see if there is proof that ebay and paypay are crooks. I use them often to buy and sell online so it is a concern to me and millions of other users.

I also agree troubled transactions are the exception, not the norm. But when they happen there is a dispute process and they have to make a decision. Sometimes the buyers wins, sometimes the sellers win. Sometimes the buyer and seller figure out a way to solve it on their own,. If it comes down to ebay or PayPal deciding a dispute...well someone is going to win, and someone is going to lose. In general their criteria is pretty clear and they do not have any really difficult to understand terms...but bottom line is they can not be responsible for a users bad decisions..only do the best they can to make sure online transactions are safe as possible. And in my opinion they are not perfect, but do a pretty good job of it overall. Basically if you use good judgment, you can conduct successful online transactions with ebay. Remember ebay and paypal make their money from successful transactions and not from settling disputes and banning users and deleting feedback. So it is in their best interest not to mess with feedback or do anything other then try to make using the site as safe as possible...since they do have to protect their own interests being a business and not a charity.

As far as the BBB I used to think they served a useful purpose but in the last several years I can not trust thier site. I notice they have been giving A ratings to companies that are by far the biggest scams on earth. I am not talking about a company that conducts hundreds of thousands or millions of transactions a day and has a few thousand complaints overall..but companies that just about EVERY transaction they conduct results in a complaint. Why would they give those companies an A rating? All I can figure is they are doing it for the money.

....make a "simple online transaction". or that is what you think....You dont seem to understand what I said about ebay deleting the transaction to stop me from filing a feedback about the seller and they lied about using their email
address. All that is a normal behavior to you and doesnt make ebay people crooks, right?

Furthermore, although I work in Arab Emirates, I am not an Arab. you seem to be a racist who doesn't like Arabs!!.

You also dont seem to be able to solve the riddle about why many people use ebay without a problem. Off course the troubled transactions are not the rule. They are the exception. That is why you keep making transactions with no
problem until you come to an odd situation where something goes wrong and that is where ebay is put to the test. That test exposes their irresponsible and erratic behavior and makes them cooks. This makes dealing with them risky because such situation may happen any time with such crooks selling on ebay and encouraged for such behavior. You seem to be associated with ebay that is why you are so enthusiastic about them. The facts I am displaying here are clear. It is up to the readers to consider ebay a scam or not.

Your main problem is the lack of understanding and wrong interpretation of what is being written but the facts are clear. Also you are turning this post into discussion about ebay although it is about the BBB.

..that someone in China messed up selling a camera to Arabs?

All I know is for over 10 years I have been able to buy and sell on ebay without a single problem. I know it is hard for some people to conduct a simple online transaction..yes of that I have no doubt, but you can't blame ebay for you making a bad decision. And as stated I agree the BBB is a bunch of hogwash. Anyone can pay for a good rating. But as I also stated it is hard for anyone to justify that ebay is a scam based on a few thousand reports when MILLIONS of transactions are conducted per DAY without all this drama and ish. Why can SO many MILLIONS of people not have a problem, and a few can't seem to follow some simple rules? And to say ebay or paypal sides with sellers is ludicrous if you actually researched complaints against them.

Granted I agree there are both buyers and sellers that are really too stupid or unethical to conduct a SIMPLE online transaction...the MOST complaints by FAR against eBAY and PayPal...are that they all to often side with the BUYERS.

My story with ebay is listed here

http://www.ripoffreport.com/auctions/ebay-com/ebay-com-paypal-com-beware-of-60ee4.htm

As you see, ebay deleted the traces of transaction so I could not even rate the seller. You falsely believe that the rating reflects the reality but I know otherwise. They also lied to me about their email address. If you dont call that fraud that is your problem. Actually ebay deviates from the norm of all other American companies with this inferior standard of customers satisfaction. It is very easy for them to force the seller to make a settlement because the seller needs ebay to do more business but they take the seller's side against the customer. When the seller tells me that he is waiting for verification from the post office about the shipment, it is not logical to jump and file a case with ebay while assuming that the seller is making good effort to solve this issue. It is clear that ebay contains a large concentration of crooks who know the system very well and know that if they make false promises, the 45 days will pass and they will steal the money with impunity. I was trusting that no matter what happens ebay will set things straight like how I am used to with other American companies but I was surprised from ebay attitude and deliberate evasion of responsibility.

All that and the fact that they dont respond to the BBB and apparently they buy their rating with money from them tells me that they are running an organized fraud operation. You keep dealing with ebay and you will come to this conviction at one point down the road. I was dealing with ebay for 5 years before I noticed that they are a scam.

So of course a few thousand complaints are not going to effect their BBB rating. Not to defend the BBB has they are a scam as far as I am concerned in some aspects...the way eBay works is the BUYERS who use ebay determine the rating of the SELLERS. What could be more fair and transparent?

eBay is simply a website where people can buy and sell merchandise online. PayPal is just a service used to make the online payments safer. Neither eBay or Paypal are there to babysit or bail out idiots who can not conduct a simple transaction, nor do they exist to bail anyone out who makes a bad decision because they are an idiot.