Bell Road Toyota - Rip-off artists: In my opinion, they take money illegitimately. Auto ripoff. EX-employee, now Auto Advocate for Rip-off Report gives you the inside Report Phoenix Arizona
The below statement is what Bell Road Toyota does to their employees, from my experience.
I worked for Bell Road Toyota, at one time. I thought it was an OK place to work. One thing I tried to figure out, when I first started working there was, why most of the car sales people that they hired did not have either an acceptable level of product knowledge, or acceptable sales experience. They even have a name for this. Sales people that are new to the car sales business are called "GREEN PEAS."
It also seemed to me that Bell Road Toyota was very secretive when "desking" all of their car dealers. "Desking" refers to how deals are written, to include the commission to the sales staff. They keep their employees in the dark as to how they crunch the numbers before and after a car deal is completed, so they can improve profits for the dealership and minimize the commissions they pay out.
In other words, what this means is that they were hiding information from their sales people on how they structured car deals. It just seemed strange to me, that I worked for the car dealer and was not allowed to see how the desk manager was calculating the deal. Why was this information so well guarded? I have a theory and believe I have the evidence to prove it.
In the automotive sales industry, they have what they call "Front-end gross" and "Backend Gross". The sales people get paid on the profit of the sale of the car and they also get paid more money if they get the car buyer to accept $5000 for their trade-in that has an Actual Cash Value (ACV) of say $10,000. If a salesman were to get a car buyer to accept the deal, the salesman would get $1000 in commission if he was on a 20% commission program, and $1,250 if he were on a 25% program. Additionally, the salesman receives either 20% or 25% of the profit of the sale of the new car, minus the car dealer's hidden fee they call "a PACK." A Pack can be up to 1,000 bucks, which is deducted from the commission.
Then the Finance manager, who gets paid on the Backend gross, would get money in his pocket if he has the ability to sock the car buyer at a higher interest rate or sells a warranty for $2000 for which the dealer paid maybe $500. F&I managers also have the ability to do what is called "Float the front-end gross profit to the backend," which is actually stealing from the sales people.
I remember one time that I tried to look at the computer when one desk manager was "desking" one of my deals. One desk manager named Roger asked me, "Do you want a day off ?" I said, "no." So he threatened me by saying, "Then don't worry how I structure car deals!"
There were many sales people complaining that their pay vouchers should have been bigger. After thinking about this for a while, I figured out that that this Toyota dealership takes money that is not theirs.
I remember one other time I had a nice lady come in and ask to see 4 Runners. I was more than happy to show her what she wanted. This lady had a Toyota Previa All Track 4X4 minivan that was in mint shape and ready to put on the lot. She told me that she wanted to trade it in for a new 4 Runner.
Her Toyota minivan was paid off in full. She also had her title and was ready to make a deal. I sold her the 4 Runner and she was on her way. Later that month, I got what car dealers call a "Mini" pay voucher, at that time was $50.00. I asked Roger how I could get a Mini when this lady had a free and clear trade.
He said, "Stick. Don't you remember, we had to pay off her van." I thought, "Oh, OK." So I called this lady and did what is called follow up. I asked her "How do you like your new 4 Runner?" She said she loved it. I asked her, "Did we get your Previa paid off?" She reminded me that it had no lien. In other words it was FREE AND CLEAR.
I felt that Bell Road Toyota floated the front-end gross of my deal to the back end. I figured that her van had an ACV of at least $8500. At the time I worked for Bell Road Toyota I was being paid on a 20% commission program.
I felt I was entitled to at least 20% of $8500, which is equal to $1700 dollars. Additionally, I was entitled to something from the sale of the 4 Runner she bought. How could I have gotten only a $50 voucher?
Now, one can see why I help www.badbusinessbureau.com go after bad car dealers.
The photo (to be posted shortly) you see on the back of my truck says what I FEEL. It will not be removed from the back of my truck until this issue is resolved. Just think how many people in Phoenix will read what is posted on the tail gate of my truck.
I wonder how many of their current sales people feel similarly about their car deals. The Rip-off Report has recorded conversations with current employees that say they feel this is going on right now.
I will send copies of this Rip-off Report by snail mail to the following:
Toyota Motor Corp.
Yoshimi Inaba President,CEO
19001 S. Western Ave,
Torrance, CA 90509
Phone # 1-310-468-4000
Fax # 1-310-468-7800
The American International Automobile Dealers Association
211 North Union Street, Suite 300,
Alexandria, Virginia 22314.
Phone number (703) 519-7800,
fax number is (703) 519-7810.
Howard Keyes, Owner
Bell Road Toyota
Arizona's EEOC.
Arizona AG's Office
Automotive News.
New York Times.
The Chicago Tribune.
The AZ Republic.
Stick B
Phoenix, Arizona
Click here to read other Rip Off Reports on Bell Road Toyota
Click here to read other Rip Off Reports on Toyota Dealers and Products
19 Updates & Rebuttals
The Great Thorn - Rip-off Report Consumer Advocate
Bayville,New York,
U.S.A.
Hey Don, you can defend all auto deception you want, but all auto deception will be EXPOSED It is OUR JOB here at Rip Off Report.com
#20Consumer Suggestion
Sun, May 18, 2003
Don the car dealer that you work for or any other car dealer can play what EVER deception games you want with car buyers. You risk the chance that it will be exposed right here at ripoffreprot.com
All of any dirt in the auto industry must be exposed. You clowns have been getting away with way too much for way too long. Like Auto Motive News said in an article on Rip-off Report.com some time ago, "Let the seller beware"
Yes, it is true that if car dealers did not have F&I departments that car buyers in fact would have to go to their local banks, credit unions, or finance companies in order to obtain financing.
You keep this in mind If car buyers only went to local banks and credit unions the deception in the auto industry would be CUT in HALF and you know it.
Car dealers lying to banks is an everyday thing. Car dealers have no problem bending the truth about a Buyer's income, They have no problem Having the true cosigner sign where the buyer is supposed to sign.
They do the cosigner scam because they know the one that has the higher Fair Isaac Score is the one the banks will love.
If a car buyer takes a cosigner in to a bank or a credit union neither will have the buyer sign where the cosigner is supposed to sign. They do not play deception games like car dealers do and YOU my Fellow American KNOW IT!
The only beef that I have with banks is that they are too lazy to have any of their loan officers call all parties involved in any car deal, the car dealer, the buyer or the cosigner and verify all documentation before funding ANY CAR DEAL.
Doing this alone would KILL a ton of auto dealer deception. Maybe the dirty car dealers would not be able to have their trained F&I CLOWNS cram window etching, useless extended warranties or some dumb a*s paint protection or a Low Jack that I feel is an OVER PRICED car PAGER down a car Buyer's throat.
Foot note" to you folks that have a Low Jack. Call up Low Jack and ask them if you total your car do you have to buy another Low Jack or can you have the one in your totaled car installed in your new car. Or will you be forced to get your checkbook out once again?
The auto industry wants a one way pipe line that flows money AWAY FROM THE CONSUMER!
Maybe a bus load of "Spot Deliveries" would no longer happen. You clowns only do the "Spot delivery" scam to pull buyers off of the market until you can find a bank that will hang any paper on the buyers. Doing this prevents your competition from having a chance at bending your "UP's" over.
Trust me Mr. Car dealer's employee, The day has come that all spot lights that I get my hands on will be brightly shinning all deception in the auto industry, I WILL SEE TO IT. I have the time to do JUST THAT. It all will be done right HERE!
Don
Portland,Oregon,
U.S.A.
I have a solution...
#20Consumer Suggestion
Sat, May 17, 2003
OK. You win
You got all car dealers figured out. Our secrets are out now.
GIVE ME A BREAK!
To catorgize all car dealerships into one evil group is IGNORANT.
To question my integrity without even knowing me is IGNORANT
To imply that I would break the law and switch the price or figures around on a purchase is IGNORANT
Car dealships offer financing because they are able to sale more cars.
If they didnt then consumers like yourself would have no choice but to visit their local banks, credit unions, or finance co in order to obtain financing. keep in mind these are still good options for the customer, in most cases the dealer can offer a better financing package.
As far as an educated consumer, i would rather have a customer that has done their reserch on the car and h*o they are going to pay for it than the one who has no clue and is indeciseve about what they want. These customers take up 3 times more of my time.
So please do not preach to me about someone who goes to the grocery store and stops in at a car dealer and speands $20K ON A CAR and then blaims the car dealership.
No regards to you joe
Joe
Never Again,Maine,
U.S.A.
Car dealer training and finance department.
#20Consumer Comment
Mon, May 12, 2003
Don what you say sounds like typical car dealer bull. If financing was not so profitable dealerships would not even bother and stick to just selling cars.
The products sold in the F&I office are often sold for double and are usually useless, like a 4 year warrantee on a 2 year lease or GAP insurance that does not provide coverage as advertised. BEFORE YOU SAY TOO BAD THE CUSTOMERS SHOULD HAVE READ THE PAPERWORK, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW HOW MANY CUSTOMERS YOU RUSH THROUGH THE PAPERWORK AND SAY "ITS NOT IMPORTANT!".
Let face it car salemen and finance managers do not like informed customers. They do not want consumers read the contracts and see how much everthing REALY costs.
As for you losing a profit by a loan being paid off in 90-120 days,it usually does not happen because the customer is usually significantly upsidedown because of payment packing of extras in the F&I office. Most people do not know about being able to cancel warrantee and insurance.....guess what you win again! I never had anything against car dealers until I was financially raped by one. I have no problem with dealerships making a fair profit, when deceptive and unfair practices are not used. BUT MOST CAR DEALERS ONLY CAR ABOUT GETTING THEIR CUSTOMERS ENTIRE PAYCHECK AND NOT A MONTHLY PAYMENT.
I feel bad for the veteran that was victimized by this scummy dealership, I know how it feels. I will not have another fiasco like I had to deal with like had at City Mitsubishi. If a dealer wants to physically detain me and use the same tactics I experienced before, I will use any means necessary to walk out.
AS FOR PROBAC.COM AND THE OTHER CAR SALES AND FINANCE TRAINING, THEY TEACH DECEPTIVE AND UNFAIR PRACTICES SUCH AS: high pressure sales, spot delivery, overcoming the customers objections to control the deal and try to steal their entire paycheck.
By the way Don, how many times did the numbers you negotiate with the potential buyer come close to on the contract? I sure you told the buyer not to worry. Right? Would try to sell a 1990 Yugo with 500'000 miles on it for more than one of your new cars? It does not take skill to sell cars, dealers only require to be crafty and have no concience and to do anything it takes to close a sale.
Don
Portland,Oregon,
U.S.A.
Charge Backs...
#20Consumer Comment
Sun, May 11, 2003
Everyone in this rip off report has neglected a very important issue.
Charge Backs
When I customer purchases a warranty, insurance , or gets a loan from a car dealer the dealer will make some sort of profit.
That is a fact.
But what you fail to realize is that the lenders will Charge back the dealer the profits from the loan if the consumer pays off the loan in the first 90-120 days depending on the lender.
The warranty contracts can be canceled and dealers will lose their profits ont hem when they are cancelled.
So why would you think car dealers put all of their profits into the finance department?
THEY DON'T
It is a bad investment of profits.
The funny thing is, in a new car dealership, the service and parts department make more money than the sales departments.
Before you "Failed Green Peas" offer insider info, maybe you should spend some time on the sales desk or the finance office. Only then will you have a full understanding of how a car dealership works and makes money.
Regards~
Don
General Sales Manager
Automobile Dealership
Fraud Hammer X
Hammertown,Hawaii,
U.S.A.
Matthew, when you disrespect Stick and the Thorn you disrespect YOURSELF!
#20Consumer Comment
Sun, May 11, 2003
Stick's expose on Bell Road Toyota is right on and timely. Too bad we can't say the same for your transparent shilling, Matt. Nothing you say is truthful, and we can only begin to wonder at your anxiety to come into a public forum in order to mislead and prevaricate. Stick and Thorn exist to make sure con artists and flim-flam men/boys like you have a harder time stealing from hard-working citizens.
I am sorry that times are so tough that you must perform as a corporate w***e to get ahead. But like you said, car selling/stealing has been good to you. It's given you so much money but has taken away all your dignity and self-respect. You were a better person when you worked at Carl's Jr.
The Great Thorn - Rip-off Report Consumer Advocate
Bayville,New York,
U.S.A.
Joe read this, Great info
#20Consumer Suggestion
Sat, May 10, 2003
Joe how do you think car dealer's sales people get trained?
Go to this list of web site and check them all out REAL GOOD then come back to this Rip Off Report and post your thoughts about what product or service these web sites sell to car dealers across the country
Here is the list, Go to them ALL, OK?
www.probac.com
www.nationalautotraining.com
www.appliedconcepts.net
www.grantcardone.com
www.davidlewis.com
www.jeffsacksandassociates.com
www.stukertraining.com
www.paulcummings.com
www.tewart.com
www.joeverde.com
www.biggross.com
www.nationalautotraining.com
www.fandiprofit.com
www.carsalestraining.co.uk/preview.html
www.autoscreeningtraining.com
www.autosalestraining.com
www.wwcsonline.com
Joe
Bath,Maine,
U.S.A.
Honest and car dealers two words that do not belong together! AVOID DEALER FINANCING AND SELL YOUR OWN VEHICLE.
#20Consumer Comment
Fri, May 09, 2003
Most of the problems consumers have from car dealers results from in-house financing. Get a loan directly from a bank or credit union so you know exactly qualify for. Standard for becoming a car saleman are not that high. Only thing a person needs is no concience and be willing to do anything to a consumer to make a sale.
I have to say I NEVER MET AN HONEST CAR SALESPERSON, they never answer consumer questions directly or honestly. I asked car salemen what a particular used car I'm interested in, the typical response is "look at the value of this car.
Then the salemen walks off without giving the price. Most car dealers rely on the consumer being ignorant and not knowing the right questions.
WHEN A CAR SALEMAN DOES NOT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS I SUSPECT THE INDIVIDUAL WANTS TO RIP ME OFF. The worst dealership I ever encountered is City Mitsubishi in Jacksonville FL. It took more than fast talk and deceptive forms to defraud me. They had to detain me in the finance office with the finance manager and several salemen blocking the exit for several hours.
Also stole my credit card and my car/house keys, refused to return upon demand. The big finance manager had to use physical threats, lunging at me and saying what's wrong not happy being here. They resented the fact I researched how dealers like to falsify contracts and pack payments with warrantees, credit insurance.
They were desperate as of 10/21/01 because of lack of sales in the national economy at the time. Car dealers and a lot of lawyers are dirty because they scratch eachother's backs and rip off consumer. Also threaten people brave enough to speak out. I regret not being more aggressive and throwing chairs at the car dealers and through the glass window of the finance office.
Only reason I did not use violent tactics against these scum was my wife was there and could not protect her and fight hand to hand combat with these terrorists. In future dealings with car dealerships, If they do not take no for an answer I will have the means to convince them it would be better to let me leave. They way the economy is going, it would not surprise me if car dealers started using hand guns to secure sales and hide behing their lawyers.
Joe
Bath,Maine,
U.S.A.
Honest and car dealers two words that do not belong together! AVOID DEALER FINANCING AND SELL YOUR OWN VEHICLE.
#20Consumer Comment
Fri, May 09, 2003
Most of the problems consumers have from car dealers results from in-house financing. Get a loan directly from a bank or credit union so you know exactly qualify for. Standard for becoming a car saleman are not that high. Only thing a person needs is no concience and be willing to do anything to a consumer to make a sale.
I have to say I NEVER MET AN HONEST CAR SALESPERSON, they never answer consumer questions directly or honestly. I asked car salemen what a particular used car I'm interested in, the typical response is "look at the value of this car.
Then the salemen walks off without giving the price. Most car dealers rely on the consumer being ignorant and not knowing the right questions.
WHEN A CAR SALEMAN DOES NOT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS I SUSPECT THE INDIVIDUAL WANTS TO RIP ME OFF. The worst dealership I ever encountered is City Mitsubishi in Jacksonville FL. It took more than fast talk and deceptive forms to defraud me. They had to detain me in the finance office with the finance manager and several salemen blocking the exit for several hours.
Also stole my credit card and my car/house keys, refused to return upon demand. The big finance manager had to use physical threats, lunging at me and saying what's wrong not happy being here. They resented the fact I researched how dealers like to falsify contracts and pack payments with warrantees, credit insurance.
They were desperate as of 10/21/01 because of lack of sales in the national economy at the time. Car dealers and a lot of lawyers are dirty because they scratch eachother's backs and rip off consumer. Also threaten people brave enough to speak out. I regret not being more aggressive and throwing chairs at the car dealers and through the glass window of the finance office.
Only reason I did not use violent tactics against these scum was my wife was there and could not protect her and fight hand to hand combat with these terrorists. In future dealings with car dealerships, If they do not take no for an answer I will have the means to convince them it would be better to let me leave. They way the economy is going, it would not surprise me if car dealers started using hand guns to secure sales and hide behing their lawyers.
Joe
Bath,Maine,
U.S.A.
Honest and car dealers two words that do not belong together! AVOID DEALER FINANCING AND SELL YOUR OWN VEHICLE.
#20Consumer Comment
Fri, May 09, 2003
Most of the problems consumers have from car dealers results from in-house financing. Get a loan directly from a bank or credit union so you know exactly qualify for. Standard for becoming a car saleman are not that high. Only thing a person needs is no concience and be willing to do anything to a consumer to make a sale.
I have to say I NEVER MET AN HONEST CAR SALESPERSON, they never answer consumer questions directly or honestly. I asked car salemen what a particular used car I'm interested in, the typical response is "look at the value of this car.
Then the salemen walks off without giving the price. Most car dealers rely on the consumer being ignorant and not knowing the right questions.
WHEN A CAR SALEMAN DOES NOT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS I SUSPECT THE INDIVIDUAL WANTS TO RIP ME OFF. The worst dealership I ever encountered is City Mitsubishi in Jacksonville FL. It took more than fast talk and deceptive forms to defraud me. They had to detain me in the finance office with the finance manager and several salemen blocking the exit for several hours.
Also stole my credit card and my car/house keys, refused to return upon demand. The big finance manager had to use physical threats, lunging at me and saying what's wrong not happy being here. They resented the fact I researched how dealers like to falsify contracts and pack payments with warrantees, credit insurance.
They were desperate as of 10/21/01 because of lack of sales in the national economy at the time. Car dealers and a lot of lawyers are dirty because they scratch eachother's backs and rip off consumer. Also threaten people brave enough to speak out. I regret not being more aggressive and throwing chairs at the car dealers and through the glass window of the finance office.
Only reason I did not use violent tactics against these scum was my wife was there and could not protect her and fight hand to hand combat with these terrorists. In future dealings with car dealerships, If they do not take no for an answer I will have the means to convince them it would be better to let me leave. They way the economy is going, it would not surprise me if car dealers started using hand guns to secure sales and hide behing their lawyers.
Joe
Bath,Maine,
U.S.A.
Honest and car dealers two words that do not belong together! AVOID DEALER FINANCING AND SELL YOUR OWN VEHICLE.
#20Consumer Comment
Fri, May 09, 2003
Most of the problems consumers have from car dealers results from in-house financing. Get a loan directly from a bank or credit union so you know exactly qualify for. Standard for becoming a car saleman are not that high. Only thing a person needs is no concience and be willing to do anything to a consumer to make a sale.
I have to say I NEVER MET AN HONEST CAR SALESPERSON, they never answer consumer questions directly or honestly. I asked car salemen what a particular used car I'm interested in, the typical response is "look at the value of this car.
Then the salemen walks off without giving the price. Most car dealers rely on the consumer being ignorant and not knowing the right questions.
WHEN A CAR SALEMAN DOES NOT ANSWER MY QUESTIONS I SUSPECT THE INDIVIDUAL WANTS TO RIP ME OFF. The worst dealership I ever encountered is City Mitsubishi in Jacksonville FL. It took more than fast talk and deceptive forms to defraud me. They had to detain me in the finance office with the finance manager and several salemen blocking the exit for several hours.
Also stole my credit card and my car/house keys, refused to return upon demand. The big finance manager had to use physical threats, lunging at me and saying what's wrong not happy being here. They resented the fact I researched how dealers like to falsify contracts and pack payments with warrantees, credit insurance.
They were desperate as of 10/21/01 because of lack of sales in the national economy at the time. Car dealers and a lot of lawyers are dirty because they scratch eachother's backs and rip off consumer. Also threaten people brave enough to speak out. I regret not being more aggressive and throwing chairs at the car dealers and through the glass window of the finance office.
Only reason I did not use violent tactics against these scum was my wife was there and could not protect her and fight hand to hand combat with these terrorists. In future dealings with car dealerships, If they do not take no for an answer I will have the means to convince them it would be better to let me leave. They way the economy is going, it would not surprise me if car dealers started using hand guns to secure sales and hide behing their lawyers.
Matt
Glendale,Arizona,
U.S.A.
Stick, You are still an Idiot
#20Consumer Comment
Fri, May 09, 2003
Buddy, I am currently an Employee of Sunset Ford. My phone number is in the info you collect when I respond. You want to call me to talk about it? You represent Lawyers and call my business dirty?
In response to having trade equity when someone Leases, again you show your lack of knowledge, as if when you lease there is no down payment. I do not agree that all dealers are on the up and up, but I work for a fantastic dealership that cares about it's customers and has a CSI rating of over 97 percent. I am proud to work for them.
You just can't admit that there are honest dealerships out there. I know more about you than you know, call me and let's talk. As for anyone else reading this, don't believe anyone who claims to be an insider, like Stick Bogart, just like you shouldn't believe someone who flipped burgers for a week was a restaurant insider. Just a failure of a salesman who couldn't succeed at his job who happened to win the lottery and trash the people who tried to help him earn an honest living. Long live the truth!
S Bogart
Phoenix,Arizona,
U.S.A.
Matthew you can't stand the fact this web site exposes car dealers!
#20Consumer Suggestion
Sun, April 20, 2003
Matthew which car dealer do you work for? You going to tell me that the car dealer you work for is on the up and up?
Are there any rip off reports on the dealer you work for? Or is it that you do not want to let the cat out of the bag about the dealer you work for because you know about some Rip-off Reports on the dealer you work for?
Are all these people liars?
Are you saying Auto Delaers have a good reputation?
Car dealers take the Buyer's trades all the time and give them nothing for them. Don't try to protect this deception.
If the car dealer that I worked for would NEVER let their sales staff see the computer while they were desking the deals You and I know dam good and well something fishy was going on.
You and most all car dealers can't stand the fact that the dirty car dealers are now BEING EXPOSED.
How could I have gotten a FXXXing Mini of $50 if the buyers trade was free and clear and I put the buyer in a lease? It was not like the buyer was "upside down"!
The sales manager at that time told me "Hey stick don't you remember we had to pay off her trade. Trying to hide something.
I called the customer to do my follow up,. I asked the customer How do you like your new Toyota? She said GREAT
I asked her did we get your trade paid off? She said It was free and clear. In other words. Their was no lean! TRADE WAS SCOOPED
I even talked to an EX-F&I guy that worked there when I did. He told me VERY CLEAR that they moved money all the time!
So don't be too fast to make judgment on me until you know EVERYTHING!
What car dealer do you work for Matthew? I am willing to bet money you will not tell me and all of the readers of this web site which one you work for!
How many Rip-off Reports are on this web site about the dealer you wok for?
Speak up or SHUT UP!
All car dealers will not like what is coming to the consumers real soon.
So go love your local newspaper and go love your local TV station that does not expose the deception that you car dealers play on the consumers.
Every car buying victim that knows about this web site loves what it stands for. It is all about protecting consumers from dirty businesses that rip off consumers. People just like you.
Consumers nationwide are sick and tired of dirty car dealers.
Matthew you say I do not know what I am talking about. If that is so, why is it that local attorneys are hiring me to help them in court? Why is it that I get paid to help local law firms go after dirty car dealers?
There are a few local car dealers that know what I am doing and they want to try to settle OUT OF court. They do not want me to get in front of a jury and tell what I KNOW about car dealer deception.
If I am a dumb a*s, I would not be hired by local attorneys to help win law suits against some local car dealers.
I am involved in a law suit against one of the biggest RV dealers in the country because of what I know. No law firn is going to hire someone to go to court if they do not know what they are talking about. That all being said, go drink a beer and SHUT UP!
Matthew
Glendale,Arizona,
U.S.A.
like I said, Learn The Facts!
#20Consumer Comment
Sat, April 19, 2003
Stick to the facts, in your situation are you telling me that the customer traded in her Previa and the dealership gave her nothing for it? It was worth $8500 and she gave it to the dealership for free? You still know nothing about the car business or automotive finance if you think you are entitled to be paid on that deal.
As far as dirty dealers, I am positive there are some, but not all are dirty. Most of the complaints on your site are a bunch of whining people that things did not work out in their favor. I have worked for three dealerships since moving to Arizona and not one of them is like you make them out. As far as moving profit from the front end to the back end, anyone who has sold cars for more than a few months understands how they control the deal. I know how much profit, or lack thereof I have in every single transaction I do.
If you want to get the real truth out there, if you truly are in search of the "TRUTH", it is that the average profit on a new car, front and back end combined is less than $1500 for every car sold. With the average price of a new car at somewhere around $24000 it is less than a 6 percent average profit. Big department stores have profits of 50% and more. Jewelry stores have 200-500 percent profit. Most customers do not get ripped off, they get a vehicle at a price and payment they negotiate. What other business can you negotiate what you pay for the goods and services you need? A new car has only 10 percent profit in it if you pay full sticker price. A ten percent return on a 20-50,000 dollar investment is not a huge return.
The most amazing thing is with all the information out there about how to buy a car, very very few people actually come in and actually follow the advice on how to get a good deal.
By the way, I have talked to people you used to work with, calling yourself an "Insider" is a bit of a stretch. I worked at Carl's Junior for a month once, but I am hardly an "Insider" in the restaurant business. Anybody who believes what you say should consider the source, someone who worked at a questionable dealership for a month or two, and by no means knows what he talks about.
Sorry if the truth hurts, but I am sure your readers, if you post this message, probably will not believe me, but the truth is the truth. I hope someone out there understands that there are many dealerships, and many salespeople that are very honest, and very much care if you are happy and get a good deal. I make my living by customers referring their friends and family to me, and the dealership I work for is not "Dirty".
As far as the "great Thorn" goes, another idiot that knows nothing, I can look at any of my deals at anytime, I know what my ACV is, and there is no way someone traded in a car for nothing that was worth $8500, you guys just do not know what you speak of. There is no way someone is gonna give away their car. It's not that you are lying about it, you just do not understand anything, so you make up your own conclusions.
Stick Bogart
Phoenix,Arizona,
Fote note to Bell Road toyota. here is how I make my day.
#20UPDATE EX-employee responds
Sat, November 23, 2002
Jusk Think how many people in Phoenix read what is on the back of my truck EVERYDAY!
When I drive down any highway in the valley I look for Toyota cars and trucks that have been sold by Bell Road Toyota and then in a VERY FRIENDLY way I get in front of them so they can read what I FEEL about Bell Roard Toyota.
Most of then give me a thumbs Up or toot their horn. It FEELS VERY GOOD!
To the family that lost their loving son at Bell Road Toyota. I Stick Bogart am so sorry as to what happend to your son.
Maybe one day the state of Arizona will see that their is a true need for a 3 day cooling off period for car buyers.
Most car buying consumers do not realize the tricks car sales people have untill it is TOO LATE!
The Great Thorn
Scottsdale,Arizona,
I The Great Thorn also feels that Bell road Toyota is Deceptive
#20Consumer Suggestion
Mon, September 02, 2002
Matthew, let's you and I get the real truth out for everybody to read. I at one time worked for a few car dealers and I know for a fact that the dirty car dealers in fact do steal money from the "Frontend Gross"
This is a way for GM's and GSM's to look good in the car dealer's owner's eyes and also to fatten their pay check aswell. Desk managers, F&I managers, GM"s and GSM's all get money out of the BACKEND GROSS as pay.
Mathew ever notice that some car dealers like to hire people that have never sold cars before, you know "GREEN PEAS"? If I owned a car dealership and I was deceptive, I would want "GREEN PEAS" too.
This way I could not only maintain control of the car buyers but also the sales staff aswell. Clear way for a dealership to take money that the sales staff does NOT KNOW ABOUT, You agree?
If a car buyer has a FREE AND CLEAR trade that he or she has no lien on and goes to any car dealer this is what can happen to the car buyer and what can happend to the car salesman if the dealership likes to FLOAT the Frontend to the Backend. Call it taking or stealing from the sales staff if you will.
First, If a car buyer wants to trade in his or her car that he or she owes a BIG FAT ZERO on and the salesman has the negotiating ability to get the car buyer to do a car deal where the salesman is giving the buyer a BIG FAT ZERO for the buyer's trade,
This is considered FRONTEND GROSS because the Finance department had NOTHING to do with the negations process AT ALL. The F&I department did not steal the buyers trade, the sales staff does that if they have the ability.
When a salesman is showing the products he sells or is in the negotiating process with a car buyer, the F&I man is not there, nor when a F&I man is doing the paper work in his F&I office with the car buyer, and trying to sell the car buyer a bunch of extra bull s**t just to increase is his pay, you can bet that he will in most cases will NOT WANT THE SALESMAN present.
Sometime the F&I deapartment will move some of the FRONTEND profit to the BACKEND so the F&I man has room to sell the buyer a crazy over priced extended warranty.
Maybe the F&I sumbag needs room to sell a OVER PRICE dumb a*s "DESERT PORTECTION PACKAGE that some GM as fabercated for the sales department. The sales department and the F&I department are TWO different departments. So DUMMY UP!
When a car salesman negotiates with the car buyer on the buyer's trade, this has nothing to do with the F&I department if the buyer's trade in is free and clear.
If a car salesman has the negotiating abilty to get the buyer's trade and give the buyer a BIG FAT ZERO for a car that the buyer owes NOTHING ON, then the trade in is FREE AND CLEAR profit for the car dealer because of the salesman's negotiating abilty to steal the buyer's trade in.
So If a car dealer is paying their sales staff 20% on the frontend gross and the trade-in has an ACV of $8500 then the salesman should be intitled to 20% of the $8500 Because the salesman NOT THE F&I department was the one to get the trade in for the dealer at NO COST! So in the above case if the trade in's ACV was $8500 the salesman Mr Bogart would be intitled to a FAT $1700 bucks. Not to mention 20% of the Frontend profit on the 4 Runner the buyer bought.
Mr Bogart if what you feel is true, you got BENT OVER. I would not trust Bell Road Toyota at all. Sounds like a VERY DECEPTIVE car dealer to me. I also would bet that this car dealer hires a s**t load of "GREEN PEAs"
I would think maybe this bad car dealer needs their books looked at, You a gree Mr Bogart?
Ask your self this Matthew.
When you do a trade apraisal on a buyer's car and you fill out the "ACV Card" does your desk manger let you see the numbers that are put on the ACV card buy a used car manager or GSM during the selling process or after the buyer is long gone in their new car?
Matthew, will the managers at your dealership let you look in any deal jacket on any car deal that you have put together in the past at ANYTIME? I bet not unless they go get it and hide info they do not want you to see.
If a car dealers managers hide info from the sales staff, more then likly they are bending their sales staff over for a few bucks. Car dealers have been stealing frontend gross for many years. Don't play dumb because you work for a car dealer matthew.
Foot note for all car buyers from The Great Thorn.
If you have a FREE and CLEAR trade DO NOT TRADE IT IN if you can, by all maens sell it your self. car dealers are known for stealing your trade real fast especially if they get it in their head to WACK YOU IN A LEASE.
This is a easy way for them to hide your trade-in in the lease and give you pennys on the dollar for your trade in. This is one reason sales people love to slam you in a lease if they know that your trade-in is free and clear.
If I were you I would fax a "printer Friendly version of your Rip Off Report and fax it to Bell Road Toyota. Let them know that they have mane the Rip Off Report and I also would fax a clean copy to
Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc.
19001 S. Western Avenue
Torrance, CA 90509
Toll free: 1-800-331-4331
Fax: Fax: 310-468-7800
Contact the editor at the Rip Off report and try to see how you can post a picture of this car dealership for everybody to know the dealer you are talking about.
matthew
mesa,Arizona,
learn the facts first
#20UPDATE Employee
Thu, May 02, 2002
As a professional car salesman, I am offended by your lack of experience or knowledge that you are professing to have. Most importantly, the fact that a customer has no payoff on her vehicle does not mean that the $8500 value of her trade in is something you get paid for.
You do not get paid 20% of the value of a trade in. The vehicle costs $8500, it was not $8500 in profit. This alone disqualifies you as an "insider".
A trade in vehicle's value is determined by the person who purchases the vehicle. Therefore, the buyer (your manager), determines the ACV (a term you use, but have no knowledge of it's meaning). The ACV, is the vehicle's actual cash value. This means this is what the car is worth to the dealership. Some cars will be given a different "allowance" than the actual value.
If you owe $10000 on a vehicle that is only worth $5000, it is only worth $5000 period. For a dealership to take the vehicle on trade it would require the customer to pay the difference, unless the dealership pays too much for it, which is called an over-allowance.
To do this, the dealership has to absorb the deficiency by marking the car up sometimes. This is not done to inflate the profits, but to allow customers to not have to come up with the difference in cash. Other times dealers under-allow on trade ins.
This does create extra profit for the dealer. Times when this is necessary, is when customers make ridiculously low offers on cars they wish to purchase.
If a customer wants to pay below invoice on a car, or less than the car is worth, dealers often will do it if they can buy the trade in for less than it's market value.
Your ignorance to the basic concepts of structuring an automotive purchase offer are the reasons your manager would not allow you to see his computer screen. You do not know enough about the car business to know what you are looking at. All businesses exist to make money.
Automotive dealerships have huge amounts of overhead, and have many ways of generating profits. They employ technicians trained to fix the most sophisticated cars, parts departments to supply independent repair facilities as well as owners, and a sales department to supply consumers with vehicles. The finance department does many functions. They complete legal paperwork for the purchase or lease of a vehicle, they complete licensing paperwork, they help people obtain loans, and get approved for financing. They also sell products such as Warranties, Paint and Fabric protection, Anti-theft products, and insurance.
Of course they sell these products at a profit. The automotive business has provided me with a good income, I have never ripped anyone off, and have many happy customers. I have known countless people who benefitted greatly from the products that were purchased in the finance office. Every customer whose car has broken down, but was rescued by a roadside assistance benefit in their warranty, every customer who spilled coffee in their new car, but it did not stain the seat as a result of fabric protection, every customer who had a car recovered because they bought the Lojack system.
These people got value from their purchase. You do not have the knowledge to throw around terms like "front-end", or "back-end", you were like so many other "green-peas", who tried to sell cars once, but left before learning anything at all, like how to make customers happy, and make a living doing it.
It can be an honorable profession, despite it's bad image. You only made a "mini", because the dealership only made a small profit, that means your customer got a great deal. You claim to have "insider" knowledge, but it seems you possess very little knowledge of what you talking about.
matthew
mesa,Arizona,
learn the facts first
#20UPDATE Employee
Thu, May 02, 2002
As a professional car salesman, I am offended by your lack of experience or knowledge that you are professing to have. Most importantly, the fact that a customer has no payoff on her vehicle does not mean that the $8500 value of her trade in is something you get paid for.
You do not get paid 20% of the value of a trade in. The vehicle costs $8500, it was not $8500 in profit. This alone disqualifies you as an "insider".
A trade in vehicle's value is determined by the person who purchases the vehicle. Therefore, the buyer (your manager), determines the ACV (a term you use, but have no knowledge of it's meaning). The ACV, is the vehicle's actual cash value. This means this is what the car is worth to the dealership. Some cars will be given a different "allowance" than the actual value.
If you owe $10000 on a vehicle that is only worth $5000, it is only worth $5000 period. For a dealership to take the vehicle on trade it would require the customer to pay the difference, unless the dealership pays too much for it, which is called an over-allowance.
To do this, the dealership has to absorb the deficiency by marking the car up sometimes. This is not done to inflate the profits, but to allow customers to not have to come up with the difference in cash. Other times dealers under-allow on trade ins.
This does create extra profit for the dealer. Times when this is necessary, is when customers make ridiculously low offers on cars they wish to purchase.
If a customer wants to pay below invoice on a car, or less than the car is worth, dealers often will do it if they can buy the trade in for less than it's market value.
Your ignorance to the basic concepts of structuring an automotive purchase offer are the reasons your manager would not allow you to see his computer screen. You do not know enough about the car business to know what you are looking at. All businesses exist to make money.
Automotive dealerships have huge amounts of overhead, and have many ways of generating profits. They employ technicians trained to fix the most sophisticated cars, parts departments to supply independent repair facilities as well as owners, and a sales department to supply consumers with vehicles. The finance department does many functions. They complete legal paperwork for the purchase or lease of a vehicle, they complete licensing paperwork, they help people obtain loans, and get approved for financing. They also sell products such as Warranties, Paint and Fabric protection, Anti-theft products, and insurance.
Of course they sell these products at a profit. The automotive business has provided me with a good income, I have never ripped anyone off, and have many happy customers. I have known countless people who benefitted greatly from the products that were purchased in the finance office. Every customer whose car has broken down, but was rescued by a roadside assistance benefit in their warranty, every customer who spilled coffee in their new car, but it did not stain the seat as a result of fabric protection, every customer who had a car recovered because they bought the Lojack system.
These people got value from their purchase. You do not have the knowledge to throw around terms like "front-end", or "back-end", you were like so many other "green-peas", who tried to sell cars once, but left before learning anything at all, like how to make customers happy, and make a living doing it.
It can be an honorable profession, despite it's bad image. You only made a "mini", because the dealership only made a small profit, that means your customer got a great deal. You claim to have "insider" knowledge, but it seems you possess very little knowledge of what you talking about.
matthew
mesa,Arizona,
learn the facts first
#20UPDATE Employee
Thu, May 02, 2002
As a professional car salesman, I am offended by your lack of experience or knowledge that you are professing to have. Most importantly, the fact that a customer has no payoff on her vehicle does not mean that the $8500 value of her trade in is something you get paid for.
You do not get paid 20% of the value of a trade in. The vehicle costs $8500, it was not $8500 in profit. This alone disqualifies you as an "insider".
A trade in vehicle's value is determined by the person who purchases the vehicle. Therefore, the buyer (your manager), determines the ACV (a term you use, but have no knowledge of it's meaning). The ACV, is the vehicle's actual cash value. This means this is what the car is worth to the dealership. Some cars will be given a different "allowance" than the actual value.
If you owe $10000 on a vehicle that is only worth $5000, it is only worth $5000 period. For a dealership to take the vehicle on trade it would require the customer to pay the difference, unless the dealership pays too much for it, which is called an over-allowance.
To do this, the dealership has to absorb the deficiency by marking the car up sometimes. This is not done to inflate the profits, but to allow customers to not have to come up with the difference in cash. Other times dealers under-allow on trade ins.
This does create extra profit for the dealer. Times when this is necessary, is when customers make ridiculously low offers on cars they wish to purchase.
If a customer wants to pay below invoice on a car, or less than the car is worth, dealers often will do it if they can buy the trade in for less than it's market value.
Your ignorance to the basic concepts of structuring an automotive purchase offer are the reasons your manager would not allow you to see his computer screen. You do not know enough about the car business to know what you are looking at. All businesses exist to make money.
Automotive dealerships have huge amounts of overhead, and have many ways of generating profits. They employ technicians trained to fix the most sophisticated cars, parts departments to supply independent repair facilities as well as owners, and a sales department to supply consumers with vehicles. The finance department does many functions. They complete legal paperwork for the purchase or lease of a vehicle, they complete licensing paperwork, they help people obtain loans, and get approved for financing. They also sell products such as Warranties, Paint and Fabric protection, Anti-theft products, and insurance.
Of course they sell these products at a profit. The automotive business has provided me with a good income, I have never ripped anyone off, and have many happy customers. I have known countless people who benefitted greatly from the products that were purchased in the finance office. Every customer whose car has broken down, but was rescued by a roadside assistance benefit in their warranty, every customer who spilled coffee in their new car, but it did not stain the seat as a result of fabric protection, every customer who had a car recovered because they bought the Lojack system.
These people got value from their purchase. You do not have the knowledge to throw around terms like "front-end", or "back-end", you were like so many other "green-peas", who tried to sell cars once, but left before learning anything at all, like how to make customers happy, and make a living doing it.
It can be an honorable profession, despite it's bad image. You only made a "mini", because the dealership only made a small profit, that means your customer got a great deal. You claim to have "insider" knowledge, but it seems you possess very little knowledge of what you talking about.
matthew
mesa,Arizona,
learn the facts first
#20UPDATE Employee
Thu, May 02, 2002
As a professional car salesman, I am offended by your lack of experience or knowledge that you are professing to have. Most importantly, the fact that a customer has no payoff on her vehicle does not mean that the $8500 value of her trade in is something you get paid for.
You do not get paid 20% of the value of a trade in. The vehicle costs $8500, it was not $8500 in profit. This alone disqualifies you as an "insider".
A trade in vehicle's value is determined by the person who purchases the vehicle. Therefore, the buyer (your manager), determines the ACV (a term you use, but have no knowledge of it's meaning). The ACV, is the vehicle's actual cash value. This means this is what the car is worth to the dealership. Some cars will be given a different "allowance" than the actual value.
If you owe $10000 on a vehicle that is only worth $5000, it is only worth $5000 period. For a dealership to take the vehicle on trade it would require the customer to pay the difference, unless the dealership pays too much for it, which is called an over-allowance.
To do this, the dealership has to absorb the deficiency by marking the car up sometimes. This is not done to inflate the profits, but to allow customers to not have to come up with the difference in cash. Other times dealers under-allow on trade ins.
This does create extra profit for the dealer. Times when this is necessary, is when customers make ridiculously low offers on cars they wish to purchase.
If a customer wants to pay below invoice on a car, or less than the car is worth, dealers often will do it if they can buy the trade in for less than it's market value.
Your ignorance to the basic concepts of structuring an automotive purchase offer are the reasons your manager would not allow you to see his computer screen. You do not know enough about the car business to know what you are looking at. All businesses exist to make money.
Automotive dealerships have huge amounts of overhead, and have many ways of generating profits. They employ technicians trained to fix the most sophisticated cars, parts departments to supply independent repair facilities as well as owners, and a sales department to supply consumers with vehicles. The finance department does many functions. They complete legal paperwork for the purchase or lease of a vehicle, they complete licensing paperwork, they help people obtain loans, and get approved for financing. They also sell products such as Warranties, Paint and Fabric protection, Anti-theft products, and insurance.
Of course they sell these products at a profit. The automotive business has provided me with a good income, I have never ripped anyone off, and have many happy customers. I have known countless people who benefitted greatly from the products that were purchased in the finance office. Every customer whose car has broken down, but was rescued by a roadside assistance benefit in their warranty, every customer who spilled coffee in their new car, but it did not stain the seat as a result of fabric protection, every customer who had a car recovered because they bought the Lojack system.
These people got value from their purchase. You do not have the knowledge to throw around terms like "front-end", or "back-end", you were like so many other "green-peas", who tried to sell cars once, but left before learning anything at all, like how to make customers happy, and make a living doing it.
It can be an honorable profession, despite it's bad image. You only made a "mini", because the dealership only made a small profit, that means your customer got a great deal. You claim to have "insider" knowledge, but it seems you possess very little knowledge of what you talking about.