Complaint Review: CHASE VISA

You got another credit card! How nice for you. I am glad I could help you think your way through this. Even if you are staying with Chase...

"So curse the darkness (Chase), or light a candle (Get another CC.)"

I called Chase again, and interestingly enough, the customer service guy told me that while he couldn't do anything about the interest rate on my old Chase card, if I switched to one of their promotional Visas (I chose one affiliated with Amazon) I could cut my interest rate in half (including the outstanding balance on the old card) and there was no yearly fee for the card either.

Let's see what happens.

Let's get back to the issue at hand: I feel Chase has shitty and misleading business practices and, from the looks of things, I'm not the only one.

You, obviously, feel differently. Now, aside from your enlightening discussion on how a public corporation works, your second lecture on the virtues of personal responsibility, and your attempt to assist me in attaining the correct worldview regarding this issue, what, exactly, do you have to offer in the way of useful advice or information? Anything besides "Straighten up and fly right?"

Be my guest and have the last word, Thomas. My apologies to the other posters as well as badbusiness for taking the bait and allowing Thomas to turn this thread in a referendum on my personal shortcomings. And many thanks to the rest of you for your kind advice.

" "I was so hoping for a lecture on "personal responsibility." They are so very useful, especially when you're dealing with a financial institution, because financial institutions are bastions of responsible business practices - as evidenced by all the space they occupy on this website."

You post below that you are a small businessman. Well gosh, golly gee, "financial institutions are bastions of responsible business practices" IF and ONLY IF they meet their FIRST responsibility, which *by law* is to their shareholders, not to you. And if management FAILS to meet their duty of responsible management to their shareholders, it is actionable in court. As a small businessman you should understand this.

"Let me explain that most of what is on that card is veterinary bills (for my dog) and medical bills (for myself.)"
We used to have cats & dogs 16 years ago, but I became extremely alergic so it became me or them. So they went. We did not have very much in vet bills, but vet bills can become very high. Having pets is still a personal decision, and its consequences are not the responsibility of the CC bank. Personal med bills, however, are a different matter and can be both inescapable and terrible.

My wife was in our local hospital for four (4) days for a very routine surgery, and the hospital bill was $40,400. I had thought the bill would be $6000 to $10,000. How in hell they got to the higher number is still a mystery to me, not withstanding the bill documentation. The good news for us is that it cost us $150. Other people may not be so fortunate. So I think you should rail against hospital bills, not CC banks.

"It's actually a fairly small amount and yes, I could conceivably pay it off in one fell swoop - except that I'm a small businessman and business has been slow lately so I'm reluctant to dip into my savings any more than I have."
It's a simple tradeoff: Interest charges and liquidity versus reduced liquidity. This applies to house mortgages also when one has the ability to easily pay off the mortgage but chooses not to in order to have the maximum liquidity. Obviously, only you can decide your tradeoff.

"My complaint regarding Chase isn't that they're in business to make money, it's that they change the rules of the agreement whenever they feel like it."
DID CHase "change the rules of the agreement"? Or do your Chase CC terms & conditions (CC agreement) state that Chase CAN change interest rates at any time they please and for any lame reason they choose? If the terms & conditions say that Chase CAN change interest rates for any lame reason they choose, then you have no argument. Get another CC. I have a credit union that offers CC cards wherein the DEFAULT RATE is 15% APR and that rate kicks in AFTER you are 55 days late, or if you exceed your credit limit. [End of default rate terms.]
So curse the darkness (Chase), or light a candle (Get another CC.)

"Sorry, I don't think that's fair, and since the only thing they listen to is the regulatory bodies of government, then yep, I'm all for getting government involved - government might as well do something for those us little guys who pay for it; it certainly seems to be unstinting in its devotion to the needs of big finance."
OK- but sometimes what you get is more than what you wanted.

"Ethical practices are for everyone, Thomas, not just the little guy."
[ETHICS: A set of principles of right conduct.]

How do you propose to enforce ETHICS in a court of law? Because until you get a legal opinion, you are merely dealing here with a consensus of unenforceable 'personal opinions'. Favorable 'personal opinions' may make you feel better but they are like a pretty car without a motor: the car seems nice but it will not get you anywhere.

I was so hoping for a lecture on "personal responsibility." They are so very useful, especially when you're dealing with a financial institution, because financial institutions are bastions of responsible business practices - as evidenced by all the space they occupy on this website.

Let me explain that most of what is on that card is veterinary bills (for my dog) and medical bills (for myself.) It's actually a fairly small amount and yes, I could conceivably pay it off in one fell swoop - except that I'm a small businessman and business has been slow lately so I'm reluctant to dip into my savings any more than I have.

My complaint regarding Chase isn't that they're in business to make money, it's that they change the rules of the agreement whenever they feel like it. Sorry, I don't think that's fair, and since the only thing they listen to is the regulatory bodies of government, then yep, I'm all for getting government involved - government might as well do something for those us little guys who pay for it; it certainly seems to be unstinting in its devotion to the needs of big finance.

Ethical practices are for everyone, Thomas, not just the little guy.

I understand that "taking the path of least resistance is human nature". And I understand that CC banks are in it for all the money they can make, while I use a CC for convenience and safety.

And reread that part "... CC banks are in it for all the money they can make,..." If what the CC banks are doing NOW did not allow the CC banks to make "all the money they can make" they would be doing something else! Wouldn't they?

Even car dealers are in it for all the money they can make. So is everyone.

Would you go to work every day if you could not make money? OK, OK, throw Primerica in my face. So "Would you go to work every day if you could not make money?" was a poor question. My bad.

In the end, each person must decide if they will accept the responsibility to be in charge of their own destiny, or if they need and want government (which is the only entity that could impose really strict censures on CC banks, car dealers, etc.) to be in charge of their (the individual's) destiny. Take your pick. The CC banks are not going to go cold turkey on their own accord into anybody's idealistic credit practices, no matter how 'good' those credit practices may appear.

I propose that each person should be responsible for managing their own destiny, and government should only ensure a level playing field free of coercive deceit. This last point is tricky when car dealers are involved....

The real issue here with unsecured credit is RESPONSIBLE LENDING. Read this real good and think about it.

Why should unsecured credit be easier to get than secured credit? This is absurd! When buying a home, a lender makes sure that the entire loan is secured by real property [LTV ratios], AND the buyer's ability to pay is measured and scrutinized [DTI ratio], as well as the credit history of the buyer. Now keep in mind that all of these safeguards are taken on a loan that is totally secured. There is nothing to lose even if the buyer defaults immediately!

Now, unsecured credit. Issued to anyone based on credit score only. No other verifications of income, employment, DTI ratio, etc. And, each year down the road, still no verifications of ability to pay. I often recieved new credit cards with a $10k or higher limit while I was unemployed and maxed out on several other cards. I was using one card to pay another during slow times! But, like magic, there's another card with a $10k limit in my mailbox, just sign and activate! I got one of these for $5k the same month I walked away from all of my creditors!

Now, the question is, who is the genius who came up with this business plan? How can you send anyone an unsecured "loan" for $10k, etc..with absolutely NO QUALIFYING or determination of ability to repay?

Unsecured credit is a trap, and human nature is to take the path of least resistance, and also as humans we want things, we have impulses, we want to provide for our families, and yes keep up with everyone else. Giving unsecured credit to someone in financial trouble is like dangling food in front of a starving person.

When lenders start practicing RESPONSIBLE lending in the issuance of unsecured credit, I will start advocating rights of creditors and collection agencies!

Deal?

Did the CC bank force you to buy lots of goodies with their CC, and then have you only pay a ridiculously low monthly payment? No, of course they did not. But they made it enticing, didn't they? Maybe you fell into the trap of wanting to keep up with your neighbors.... while your neighbors were trying to keep up with you! This can be funny- or not.

Our primary CC bank has offered us "no payment holiday months" where we did not have to send ANY payment. Do you wonder if we accepted their wonderful offer? Are you crazy? Do you think we forgot about two-cycle billing? They didn't comment about any impact on the two-cycle billing scheme and I didn't want to be hit with interest charges.

And the "minimum payment" is simply ridiculous because it might not even cover your interest charges.

So the CC people make it convenient for you to sell your soul to the devil. But you do not HAVE to sell your soul to the devil. Western religions all espouse free choice for sinners.

The last part of the trap is when you carry a big balance, and I think this becomes a habit for some people, and then WHAM! One day they spring the 30% interest rate trap on you.

What to do?
1. Get a second mortgage on you house if you can, and use it to payoff the CC debt.
2. Then NEVER AGAIN accumulate a CC balance. Charge ONLY what you can pay off completely each month.
3. When you go shopping, leave your CC at home. Look at what you are considering, and then go home and sleep on it because you do not have your CC with you.
4. Many times I will procrastinate on buying something, and after awhile I will reach a non-impulse decision to buy, or not to buy. That is the question.

Tom,

That's what I always thought. A $10,000 balance is $100/month in premiums, etc..WOW!

But here's the best part, there are so many restrictions on eligibility, I don't know anyone who has actually collected benefits, AND, it ONLY pays your minimum monthly payment unless you die!

And, you have to be at least 30 days delinquent BEFORE you can even apply, then it takes another 30-45 days to get "approved" after filling out tons of paperwork to mail and/or fax. And, the benefits are NOT retroactive. They start on the due date of the month of your next payment due, after you are approved. You still have to make the prior minimum monthly payments and any amount over limit.

It is a total scam. The debtor will NEVER win with this credit insurance sold by these creditors, like Tom said, it is just extra income for them for doing nothing.

These big credit card companies are so arrogant that they actually have the nerve to ask you to buy insurance against their possible loss.

They ask you to buy insurance in case you can't make a payment.How stupid is that?

Let's see,if I can't pay,you lose,not me.You buy your own insurance.

And they act like it's cheap.Usually,it's 1% of the outstanding balance per month.That's 12% per year on top of the 29.999999999% they already charge.A total of a whopping 42% interest.

Never buy their phony baloney insurance.They have so many exclusions and conditions that you could never use it anyway.And all it does is cover the minimum payments anyway.

Instead buy real insurance from a real insurance company for things like disability or loss of income.

But that's still not good enough for them.Once you're in their minimum payment trap,they also do everything they can to trigger late payment fees and over limit fees.That's another $70.00 per month.And that pushes the total interest to well above 50%.

Kind of a neat little trick for getting around all of those pesky usury laws,isn't it?

These guys act like they can dictate anything they want.If more people would refuse to be taken advantage of,they would have to change their ways.

Customers are the environment that drives the evolution of these beasts.And only customers can create the kind of companies that they deserve.

Only customers,or the lack thereof,can make them do the right thing.

You have far more power than you realize.Don't let them get away with their tricks,games and arrogance.

And if you find it hard to believe that Steve could just walk away and not pay anything.I have read his other posts and I believe that he did what he says he did.

Peter,

I had this same thing happen to me in 2001-2002 with 4 accounts I had with Chase. I had a 735 credit score and always paid at least double+ the minimum payment when my work was slow, and when it was good I paid 15-20% at a time per month. I was a Chase Credit Card Customer for 12 years.

I can tell you how Chase works on this first hand. They will tell you whatever you want to hear over the phone just to keep you paying. They will NEVER renegotiate until you are 2 full months delinquent, which means your credit is trashed and you cannot get another card to transfer the balance to. They trap you purposely.

Tom was talking about me walking away due to the take it or leave it attitude. Everyone's needs are different and my method may not work for you. I walked away, and here it is 5 years later and they have not gotten a dime from me, and I have no judgements on me. Take it or leave it sounded like 2 choices to me!

I walked away from Chase to the tune of $40k+.!!

If you have assets to protect, just file a liquidation bankruptcy. As long as your income doesnt exceed the means test your OK. If it does exceed the means test, they will only allow a re-organization BK, but the good news is that all interest and penalties are stopped, as well as collections actions.

You win. They don't get the 29.99%!

Or, if you don't own a house or have a family, pick up and go. Turn off your phone, and don't forward your mail. Live the first 7 months in weekly rentals and don't put anything in your name. This is what I did. It works.

Good luck dealing with them.

Usually,once you get this fed up with a card company,it's not long before you start thinking about how to not pay anymore.

Read the posts related to collection agencies to know what to expect if you choose to just "walk away".

Once you start feeling like their attitude is "Take it or leave it" it's usually downhill from there.

The best thing you can do is pay it off,in full, and close the account.

If you can't do that,it is unlikely you will ever pay it off at 30%.It is a no-win game.Especially if you are just making the minimum payments.

If you can't pay it off in full,you should apply for a "hardship" plan. The best they will usually do is 2% per month at zero percent until the account is paid.They won't offer this,you have to ask.

At first they will tell you that there is nothing they can do.But stop sending any payments at all and it won't be long before they get more agreeable.Of course you will lose your card and possibly hurt your credit rating but how usefull is a maxed out card you can't use anyway?

This is the game that credit card companies play and you just fell into their trap.The longer you stay there the more life they will drain out of you.