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Complaint Review: Ketan Automated Equipment Inc | Notice: Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration Decision: A neutral and independent Arbitrator has determined that the following Report contained one or more false statements of facts. The false statements have been redacted as ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)) | | ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration))- ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration))! Ontario California
RIPOFF REPORT VIP ARBITRATION
SUMMARY OF ARBITRATOR’S DECISION
Ketan Automated Equipment, Inc.., Complainant
v.
Anonymous, Author of Report #1098833,
________________________________________________________________________
Complainant Ketan Automated Equipment, Inc. (the “Complainant”) has challenged the truthfulness of certain specific statements (each, a “Statement”) posted by Author Anonymous (the “Author”) on the Ripoff Report website at www.ripoffreport.com as Ripoff Report #1098833 (the “Report”). The Author accused the Complainant of having no support and not being accountable. The Author did submit a response to the Complainant. By submitting a Report and a Complaint on the Ripoff Report websites, both the Complainant and the Author have agreed to submit the dispute to the Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration Program.
In accordance with the Rules, the Arbitrator was asked to decide whether the challenged Statements were an opinion or a fact. If, and only if, the Statement was determined to be a statement of fact, the Arbitrator was asked to further decided if, by a preponderance of the evidence, to determine if the Statement was true or false. If the statement identified by the Complainant is determined to be an opinion, no determination will be made as to that particular Statement because an opinion cannot be determined to be true nor false.
In this case, the Arbitrator had the evidence from both parties to consider, including the Complainant’s sworn Arbitration Statement, the Author’s sworn Response, sworn Witness Statements, and the exhibits, which primarily consisted of correspondence between the parties.
Each Statement challenged by the Complainant has been considered, together with any Witness Statements and Documents provided by the Complainant for determination of the truth or falsity of the Statement. The Author did not provide a response to the Complaint.
The Arbitrator determined that the certain statements challenged in the Report were false. Therefore, according to the VIP Arbitration Rules, those statements have been redacted.
Decided July 28, 2014
Sandra J. Franklin, Arbitrator
* A copy of the full Arbitrator’s Decision is available upon request. Please e-mail arbitration@ripoffreport.com with the name of the Complainant and Report number.
________________________________________________________________________
((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration))
Do not buy a labeler from Ketan Automated Equipment!
Summary: Ketan Automated Equipment supposedly tested our bottles and labels and approved a machine for them which we purchased through Busch Machinery for $21,400. We could never get it to label more than 7 out of 10 bottles straight. Technical support was ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)). ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)). After literally years of trying to get help making this machine usable, it is still just a fancy decoration in our warehouse. It's only value appears to be as scrap metal, as none of the used equipment merchants will even make a bid on it, and it currently won't even function at all, much less correctly. [continued below]....
Report Attachments:
((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)). Using your money as a fuel source to heat your house would be more useful than giving it to Ketan Automated Equipment, and you wouldn't be stuck with a giant, worthless contraption.
This is my odyssey of despair:
I wish I had never bought a labeler from ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)). Our company bought a new packaging line through Busch Machinery, another company I would never do business with again. Part of the line was a Ketan LW-250S, for which we paid $21,400. We are a small business, and this was the most expensive piece of equipment we had ever bought. The LW-250S is a servo wrap labeler- the bottles ride along the conveyor and the machine wraps a label around each one. Before we received it, we sent samples of four different bottle sizes along with label rolls for testing. ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)). When we received the machine, one of our rolls was installed on the machine, so they had at least made a pretense of testing it.
We got the machine, and it looked amazing. However, we had problems getting it to run correctly. Computer controls for things like label offset often seemed to have no effect on the machine. The machine did not even come with a manual, so I had to call repeatedly to request one. When they finally sent me one, it was for a labeler that looked somewhat similar but had a completely different interface (ours is a touchscreen and the one in the manual was not). Long story short, no matter how we adjusted the machine, we could not get it to consistently label straight, and the skew on the non-straight bottles was totally unacceptable.
((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)). I was told to talk to Ian Carver, but he was never, ever available. I gave the receptionist my number and a message several times, but he would never call me back. I got his email address and sent him some messages until he finally called me. We talked on the phone about the situation, and he gave me some ideas to try, such as labeling the bottles after they were full instead of empty as we had been trying. However, none of these ideas did us any good, and ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)). The rest of the packaging line that Busch Machinery sold to us was full of problems as well, and we had just moved into a new building with many other issues to address, so we had to put the machine to the side and focus on other things at the time.
Things got extremely busy, and it was another eight months or so before we made another dedicated attempt to get the labeler going. We pulled the Ketan labeler out and started working on it again. We went through every page of the manual, checked the diagrams, experimented with all of the settings in the controls, adjusted everything possible on the machine, etc. We were not new to labeling- we already had older two horizontal wrap labelers, so we were fairly familiar with many of the mechanics and the logic behind how a labeler works. No matter what we tried, we could not get it to label more than 7 out of 10 bottles straight. 30% scrap is way too high.
I tried to contact Ketan again ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)). ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)). I sent some more emails and eventually got a response that perhaps our bottles were bad. We do have one size bottle that sometimes does not sit perfectly flat, but the rest of the bottles always were perfectly flat, and we didn't notice anything wrong with the shape. We experimented for weeks with every different bottle size, full and empty, without very favorable results or support from Ketan. We don't have unlimited time to waste, and other matters became pressing, and we stopped working on the labeler again.
In January of 2013, we pulled out the machine once again. We had decided to try it with some much larger bottles that we were weren't able to label on our other machines. This time, I couldn't get it to power up all the way. The buttons on the touchscreen that control turning on the conveyor and labeler functions were blacked out and disabled. I called Ketan on a Friday and then a Monday, both times leaving messages for Ian and being assured he would return my call. By the end of Monday he had not responded, so I sent off a testy email:
From: GH
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 5:42 PM
To: Ian Carver
Subject: LW-250s
Hello Ian,
Why is it so g******** hard to get some support on this label machine? I called on Friday and was told you would call me back. I called today around 1pm and the woman said you would call me back. Unsurprisingly, I have not heard from you.
We paid over $21,000 for this LW-250s when we bought it through Busch Machinery a couple of years ago, and we have never been able to use it because it can't keep the label straight on more than 7 or 8 out of 10 of our 1-4oz bottles. I called numerous times trying to get some help. The problem was never resolved, and eventually my calls were simply not returned. I had to store this thing and keep using our old labeling machines because I couldn't keep wasting my time.
Now I pulled out the LW-250s last week to try to run some very large bottles that we have never used before because I thought maybe they would be stable enough to get the label to apply straight. I don't have a machine that can do these, so I figured, perhaps this machine, which cost more than my car, might be able to at least save us the hassle of hand-labeling this small batch of bottles. I was wrong. Now when it turns on, the buttons to start the conveyor and the labeler are blacked out. I can't turn either on or make any related adjustments.
At this point I feel like rolling it down the hill. I wish I had never bought this thing or even heard of Ketan. However, I was unwise and did buy this machine, so now I would appreciate some SUPPORT. Why are these buttons blacked out and how do I fix it? I checked all the fuses I found- I believe there were six or eight of them in a row, and they were all fine. I never even got a manual for the labeler. I had to beg for one and I was sent the manual for the K200 instead which has a totally different interface. What kind of BS is that to get a $20,000 + machine and no manual or support?? If you actually have a manual for this machine, I would appreciate a copy of that too.
GH
On 1/7/2013 8:05 PM, Ian Carver wrote:
GH,
I did not receive any message today and will check with the office tomorrow.
Attached manual.
Looking at the pictures my best guess would be that the back up battery in the unit has discharge and needs replacing. If you check the main Danaher module on the left side of the electrical panel to see if the amber light is flashing a code.
If it is a battery problem the amber light will flash 6 times pause 2 times pause then once it is a battery problem.
I am on the road in the morning tomorrow but should be back late afternoon feel free to call and discuss.
Ian
This time I was able to get a hold of Ian on the phone. He finally emailed me a manual that covered our machine's interface and told me that I might need to replace a battery in one of the Danaher modules. He also put me in touch with Ken Schultz, the CEO of Ketan, to talk about the issues we had the machine never labeling the bottles straight. I explained to Ken that I had been trying to get this machine to work properly for a couple of years and that it had been very frustrating trying to get any kind of support. Ken expressed regret that I felt that way but basically told me that Ketan had always been there ready to support me, which was ridiculous. He told me that he had never heard of any problems with our machine and asked me to send samples of all of our bottles so that he could evaluate them. He mentioned that perhaps the labeler needed a three-roll system to stabilize the bottles. I was annoyed at the first part of his response which was essentially that I must not have really tried to get contact them since they were always there to help, but I was happy that someone from Ketan was offering to do something. I sent him samples of our bottles in early January and saw that they were delivered the next day.
I expected to hear back from Ketan within a few days or maybe a week. Wrong! A week went by, then two. I sent an email to Ken.
On 2/1/2013 1:44 PM, GH wrote:
Hello Ken,
I sent samples of our bottles and labels two weeks ago but have not heard anything from Ketan. Have you received and looked at them?
GH
Another week went by with no response, so I sent another email. I was also calling, but he was never available, of course.
From: GH
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 4:38 PM
To: Ken Schultz
Cc: Ian Carver
Subject: Re: Bottle samples
Ken- did you receive my bottles and labels and are you planning to do anything with them so that my labeler might become something more practical than a $21,000 display piece? You seemed very concerned when we talked on the phone about our problems with the machine, but I haven't heard a word three weeks after sending our samples in.
GH
I got a response that day.
On 2/7/2013 5:08 PM, Ken Schultz wrote:
GH,
Sorry- i did receive them and will take a look at them tomorrow morning
We have been finishing projects from last year end rush and it has been a little crazy
I will get back to you tomorrow
Kind Regards,
Kenneth Schultz
Ketan Automated Equipment, Inc.
1451 South Cucamonga Ave
Ontario, CA 91761
PH (909) 930-0780
Fax (909) 930-0945
www.ketanautomated.com
Time went by, and Ken did not respond. I called and left messages, but received no response. Meanwhile, I found the Danaher module in the labeler and located a manual online, but it was going to be a hassle to get it out and replace the battery, and there was a good chance the labeler would still not do me any good. I ordered the batteries so I would have them when I had a little more time to work on it. Unfortunately, our warehouse is not large enough to always leave out large pieces of useless equipment. Once again, we put the labeler away to focus on more pressing matters.
Seven months later, in September of 2013, we had a new bottle that we could not label in our existing equipment. I decided to try replacing the battery in the labeler per Ian's suggestion and trying to get it to work with the new bottle. I could see that the battery was dead because the Danaher unit was flashing a diagnostic light that indicated a dead battery. I followed a Danaher manual's instructions and replaced the battery successfully. I turned on the labeler, and the conveyor and labeler function buttons were still disabled. I sent an email to Ian, to which he never responded.
From: GH
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 4:38 PM
To: Ian Carver
Subject: Re: LW-250s
Hello Ian,
I finally replaced the 3v battery in the Danaher MMC because I have a bigger bottle that I am hoping will work in this machine, unlike all of our others. The Danaher MMC was flashing the battery code before in the D light on the front. Now it is no longer flashing any error code, but the buttons for the conveyor and labeler at the top of the LCD are still blocked out, the same as before. Why else would this happen?
GH
The same day, I remembered that I had been waiting for Ken to evaluate our bottles and tell me how we could make this labeler work. I was very irritated. I sent him an email. In the ensuing conversation, I refused to talk to him on the phone so that there would be a written record of everything.
The long story short is that Ken completely denied any responsibility for any problems we had with the machine, despite the fact that they had tested it with our bottles and labels and approved them before we bought the labeler. He feigned ignorance of what our problem was as if I had never explained it before. The labeler doesn't label our bottles straight! How hard is that to remember? He continued trying to get me to talk by phone, ostensibly so that he could continue feigning ignorance in the future and blaming me for not explaining things to him or following up.
He blamed the problems all on our bottles being out of round. This is ridiculous because in our older wrap labelers, the labels are applied perfectly straight when the machine is tuned in. We have one bottle size that is not very flat on the bottom and can wobble when empty, so I would understand if it had problems with that bottle, but the rest of them are very good quality and even the bottles that aren't perfectly flat are still round enough to have the labels applied perfectly straight. The problem is not our bottles, and if they think it is, why would they test our bottles and labels and this machine for us? Whose fault is that?
((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)).- ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)), no offer to trade our machine for something that would actually work, no offer to buy it back, no offer to fit it with a three-roll system to stabilize the bottles. Not even an offer on a discount on parts/services to make the machine work properly with our bottles. He did not even offer an apology!
His only proposal was to fit a three-roll system on entirely at our expense. ((Statement REDACTED as false pursuant to Ripoff Report VIP Arbitration)) and never received anything approaching adequate support, I thought it would be a bad idea to give them more money and just hope that they would install something useful and also suddenly start caring about us enough to actually answer emails and phone calls.
During this time, I was also copying Ian on each email, hoping that he would at least give me some ideas about why the conveyor and labeler functions were still not enabled after replacing the battery. Unsurprisingly, he never responded.
In closing, I wrote this to warn other potential customers about Ketan. I have had a horrendous experience with them, and I don't want anyone else to get suckered by them. I was much less experienced with packaging equipment when I made this purchase and much more naive about the possibility of getting a completely useless machine with absolutely no support at all. DO NOT BUY FROM KETAN AUTOMATED EQUIPMENT!
The entire final thread is below:
From: GH
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 3:59 PM
To: Ken Schultz
Subject: Re: Bottle samples
Dear Ken,
I've pulled out our LW-250s once more. Now it's been over seven months since I sent you sample bottles and labels, and I've never heard anything back from you about them. We paid Busch Machinery $21,000 for this labeler that can't seem to label any of our bottles reliably, and you can't even bother to test our bottles to come up with a solution as you promised? Did you ever even look at our bottles? Why do you not follow through on your promises?
GH
On 9/25/2013 9:55 PM, Ken Schultz wrote:
GH,
I thought we had spoken last on a thee roll system
Did not hear anything for a while so was not sure where it was
We did review your bottles and they are not of good quality
A three roll system would be much better for accuracy due to issues with molds and varying diameters
I am not sure what issues you are having but I am guessing accuracy
If you would like to discuss- you are welcome to call
Kind Regards,
Kenneth Schultz
Ketan Automated Equipment, Inc.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: |
Re: Bottle samples |
Date: |
Thu, 26 Sep 2013 11:23:28 -0700 |
From: |
GH |
To: |
Ken Schultz |
Let me get this straight. You are telling me that the machine will not be reliable because our bottles are not good quality. When we ordered this machine through Busch Machinery in 2010, we sent samples of our bottles and labels to them for testing. I know they sent them to Ketan because when we received the machine directly from Ketan, one of our rolls was loaded onto the machine. Somehow your company missed which direction our labels were wound in, and you sent the machine set up for the opposite way without saying anything. We also did not hear anything about our bottles not being good enough to run in this labeler. We got lousy support when I called and tried to get questions answered, and eventually my calls just weren't returned. When I brought up these issues again earlier this year, you told me about how a three roller system might be necessary and to send you sample bottles. I sent you lots of samples and then didn't hear anything back. I followed up with you two weeks later and you said you would look at them the next day and get back to me. I never heard from you again until now.
Given that you received sample bottles and labels before we purchased the machine- why would you not say anything about the quality of our bottles being a problem then? Why is it that you only discovered the bottles are supposedly the problem after we paid for the machine? These are the same exact bottles. Either you did not test the bottles then or they are not the problem now. Why have you done nothing to help us make this expensive machine work? Do you think that is a good way to do business?
This is what I want from Ketan within 30 days:
1) Either make our labeler work reliably with our bottles by retrofitting it with a three roll system or whatever it takes at no cost to us
or
2) Take this machine back and give us a refund. We paid $21,400 for this machine. I will consider accepting the amount you charged Busch Machinery if I see reasonable evidence.
On 9/26/2013 12:04 PM, Ken Schultz wrote:
GH
Cal me if you like to discuss
Sent from my iPhone On Sep 26, 2013, at 1:09 PM, GH wrote:
Hello Ken,
No, thank you. I prefer to keep this all in writing.
GH
On 9/26/2013 2:09 PM, Ken Schultz wrote:
GH
Ok
Ian available if you like to discuss
For any financial considerations you will have to speak to who you purchased it from as I have no record of you purchasing from us and do not show any monies paid to us for the equipment
With regards to us doing any modifications or trade ins
I am available should you decide to discuss further
I can get you a proposal when ready
Regards
Ken Schultz
CEO/ketan
On Sep 26, 2013, at 3:09 PM, GH wrote:
Ken,
Ketan is the manufacturer of the machine. Ketan tested it with our bottles and labels. Ketan shipped it to us. Ketan is has consistently failed to support us with the problems we've had.
I am holding Ketan accountable for this machine, and I am not paying any more money to get this machine working the way it should have worked from the start. If it wasn't going to work with the bottles you were sent, you shouldn't have sold it to us. Fix it or take it back.
GH
On 9/26/2013 4:42 PM, Ken Schultz wrote:
Completely false GH
You will have to take it up with your. Seller regarding your products
This will be my last exchange with you
I have told you if you want to call and discuss several times
If you need to make any more legal threats towards us I just send your correspondence and I will give to the appropriate people
Ken
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 26, 2013, at 5:42 PM, GH wrote:
Ken,
Completely false? These are all factual statements.
1) Ketan is the manufacturer of the machine. - True.
2) Ketan tested it with our bottles and labels. - True.
3) Ketan shipped it to us. - True.
4) Ketan has consistently failed to support us with the problems we've had. - True.
Why is it that you would need me to call you in order to discuss this? Why would I waste my time? I called you before, and all I got was a promise to evaluate my bottles which you never followed up on.
As I said, I am giving Ketan 30 days to remedy this situation to our satisfaction. Hopefully you will be reasonable and do the right thing by either fixing or taking back this machine.
GH
On 9/26/2013 6:02 PM, Ken Schultz wrote:
GH
As far as taking it back
You have to take that up with the company that sold it to you
We never received any monies from you
As far as helping with issues u are saying you have
Tale videos or describe to me what they are
With that info we can prescribe a potential solution for you
We will of course charge for any service as any company would
I saw your attachment and the machine was sold by a reseller over three and a half years ago
If you want us to help the first step would be to describe what the issues are
I can see from the bottles you sent us a few months ago that some of th are out of round
There might be some products you run that are ok or we may be able to make some different belts for you
We can try and help but you are coming at us with legal threats for a machine that we did not sell you
I am not going to go back three years to examine the sales process of the reseller
It is there responsibility to fit you with the right equipment
If you want some help
Explain in detail the issues
Be specific about the machine and what you are seeing in production please don't just tell me it does not work
If you want to go an alternate route asking us to take it back etc
You will have to communicate with your reseller
We don't have any of your monies for this unit
I hope this helps
Ken
On Sep 26, 2013, at 6:34 PM, GH wrote:
Ken,
What does this machine say on the side? It says Ketan. You are the manufacturer. It's your product. I'm taking it up with you.
Describe the issues? I already described the issue to Ian when we were first trying to get this machine to work. He made a few suggestions, none of which rectified the problem. When I kept asking questions, my calls simply weren't returned any longer. I again described the issue to you at the beginning of this year. You know what the issue is- We have never been able to get the machine to label more than 7 out of 10 bottles straight. You already mentioned a three roller system and asked for bottle samples to evaluate. You already know exactly what the issue is. The question is why did you not see any problems with our bottles when testing before shipping the machine, and after we have the machine, you claim that the problem is with our bottles?
Yes, Busch Machinery is a terrible reseller, and I would never again give them a dime. But this is your machine, and as you tested it with our bottles, subsequently shipped it to us, and failed to support us, it is your responsibility to make this right. I believe any reasonable person would agree.
GH
On 9/26/2013 6:59 PM, Ken Schultz wrote:
Ok sounds like the products may be an issue
We did not have all your bottles but if that is the main issue it sounds like you may want to talk with the manufacturer of the components or search for alternate supplier
A wrap system whether it's from us or anyone else needs products that are of good quality with regards to cylinder shape as well as bottm mold and wall thickness
You being a production person with experience should know that
As far as us shipping which you keep mentioning for some reason
We may have dropped it off for them as they may have paid us as carrier
What does this have to do with anything?
Bottom line is it is well known in this industry that you need to have quality cylinders to run on a wrap
I am sure you discussed this with Busch before you purchased the system
I will still try and help you but if you feel you want to come at us lets STOP wasting time
I think you will find that we do not sell consumer products
We sell automated equipment that the buyers should know what they are purchasing or at least have discussed all concerns with there salesperson with regards to there products
We were not your sales people but my suggestion would be to try and get a good bottle and see how that performs
Talk to your vendors and see if they can help
Anyway
I've tried to help you
Any further communication you have with regards to pointing fingers or legal so to speak
You need to take up with your seller
If you believe otherwise then you need to do what ever you feel is pertinent
Sent from my iPhone
On 9/27/2013 9:51 AM, GH wrote:
Ken,
Why is it so hard for you to take any responsibility?
"I will still try and help you but if you feel you want to come at us lets STOP wasting time"
How have you tried to help us in any way so far? You haven't offered to do anything but perhaps sell me something else. I've had this machine three years, and I have never gotten any useful help from Ketan. I've been ignored, phone calls not returned, issues not followed up on, and then you pretend that you've been trying to help. When I talked to you on the phone at the beginning of the year, you told me several times that you were there to support us, and then you did absolutely nothing, not even following up after I sent you sample bottles. At the moment, I can't even get the machine to run at all because the buttons on the screen for the conveyor and labeler are blacked out. Ian previously suggested that I replace the battery in the Danaher MMC, which I did, and it still won't start. I emailed Ian about it on Wednesday, and unsurprisingly I have again not received any help.
As far as what you keep harping on about our bottles being of low quality- first, you should have brought that up when you tested them, and yes, we did send all of the bottles. Second, our 4oz bottles are not great quality- the bottoms are often not perfectly flat so they rock a little bit when they are empty. I completely understand if those don't label well on this machine. However, our 1/2oz, 1oz, and 2oz bottles are very good. The bottoms are always flat, and the bottles are round. I find it difficult to believe that those bottles are the reason the machine is unreliable. I think that is a convenient but flawed excuse.
How are you going to help us? What concrete action will you take immediately to help us?
On 9/30/2013 2:36 PM, GH wrote:
Ken,
I haven't heard back from you. What are you going to do to help us? I haven't even heard back from Ian for the message I sent last Wednesday about why the labeler and conveyor buttons are still blacked out after I replaced the 3v battery in the Danaher MMC. Right now the machine won't even start, let alone label anything straight. Why is this happening?
On 10/1/2013 2:17 PM, GH wrote:
Ken,
Still waiting to hear back how you are going to help us. Telling me how to get the buttons for the label and conveyor functions to light up would be a good start.
On 10/2/2013 3:48 PM, GH wrote:
Ken,
I still have not received any kind of help from you or Ian. Why are the buttons for the conveyor and labeler blacked out on the touchscreen? When I press the "Support" button on the lcd, it gives me Ketan's address and phone number? Was that a mistake? So far I have not received any support. How much money does someone have to spend with Ketan to get an answer on a question like this? This machine cost over $21,000, and I've also purchased a $10,000+ Hitachi coder directly from Ketan, so I think that entitles me to some technical support and some accountability from your company.
GH
That email was the last I sent to or received from Ketan.
2 Updates & Rebuttals
GHunter
Newbury Park,California,
Once again, Ketan takes ZERO responsibility.
#3Author of original report
Tue, December 03, 2013
"This report in regards to one of our machines is a very one sided story with selective email communication which is narrated in a manner that is compeltely one sided."
Unfortunately, when I first started having problems with Ketan, I always tried calling rather than emailing because I thought I would get a faster response. When I wised up and realized that I was not getting appropriate responses and did not have a written record, I started emailing instead. This report is as comprehensive as possible. It includes all email messages that I have between both parties. Ketan's response insinuates that I left out conversations. Well then, where are they? Why not paste them into the rebuttal?
"I think anyone can see that we hardly tried to brush this customers issues under the rug."
How could anyone see that? My phone calls continually went unanswered, solutions were not offered, and very little attempt was ever made to solve any of our problems.
"The customer had multiple chances to schedule a service visit with one of our technicians and refused to pay for any such services even though the machine was out of its warrnty period."
This is a funny claim. During the warranty period, my phone calls and messages were largely ignored. Nobody ever offered to come out to try to get the machine working with our bottles, the bottles that Ketan tested the machine with before shipping it to us. The service technician, Ian, talked to me a couple of times on the phone early on and sent me a couple of messages over the years I have had this machine, none of which solved either of our two problems- 1) the machine not applying labels straight to the bottles and later 2) the conveyor and labeler functions not powering up. Eventually he stopped responding, and never once did he or Ken offer to schedule a service visit to fix these problems at any time during the warranty period. His only suggestion, shortly before I filed this report, was for us to pay for them to upgrade the system so that it would (hopefully) work with the bottles they originally tested on this machine!
" If you read through the report, you will see that several times there are long lapses in time frames in which the customer states he left the machine sit idle and then justifies it with a narrative of one of our emails."
Yes, there are long time lapses in between our communications. That is because we run a small business and cannot waste endless amounts of time trying to get a faulty machine to work. Getting that machine operational was/is one item in a very long list of things that need to get done, especially as we had just moved into a new warehouse when we received it. When Ketan repeatedly ignored me and did not answer phone calls and emails, I put off the issue because I didn't have the time to pursue it. Fortunately we have other wrap labelers that can do the job, although not as part of a complete line.
"All of the emails shown from any Ketan personnell are offering support or asking him to call and discuss or schedule a service visit. Apparently it is ok for this customer to get busy and not schedule his service call and then blame that time frame on us (Ketan)."
This is untrue, as can easily be seen in the emails. Ken repeatedly told me to call him to discuss the issue, not to schedule a service visit, and the emails where he asked me to call were all right before I filed this report, not in the first couple of years when I had this machine. Ketan's response is deliberately confusing the time frame.
Aside from that, after this ridiculous experience, why would I want to talk to anyone at Ketan on the phone where there would be no written record? Is there some reason that a service visit could not be scheduled via email? I fail to see how me not being willing to talk on the phone, after years of them igorning my calls and messages, has any bearing on whether I should receive service.
"We are not the party that sold you this machine but we are the manufaturer and we will help you. No we will not do everything for free as we have taken none of your monies for this machine and you are not within the manufatuer warranty period for the machine"
Ketan is not the party that sold us the machine, true. They are the party that tested the machine with our bottles and labels and shipped it to us after apparently approving it for use with said bottles and labels. They did not take our money directly, but obviously they were paid for the machine. I don't know where this attitude about doing something for free is coming from- the machine has not functioned correctly the entire time we have had it, as they well know, and they never offered any help when it was in the warranty period!
Ken's game is to ignore you until they can't any longer. When you finally get his attention, he keeps saying the same non-sensical or erroneous things over and over so you waste your time correcting him and setting the record straight. I assume he hopes that you will just get frustrated and go away as I have before when I had to stop wasting time trying to get a hold of Ketan and get back to running our business. The customer is just an annoying problem to Ketan. Does that sound like a support strategy you would like to deal with?
Regarding Ketan's offers:
"Service will offer you a 25% discounted rate on labor and parts that you may need"
25% off service that should have been performed for free during the warranty period... We are way past the point where that is a reasonable offer.
"We are willing to offer you a trade in price which would allow you to move into a three roll labeling system. It is a system that helps compensate for products that have tapers or bad bottom molds, etc. The price we are offering is $10,080.00.That is 40% off of a new machine"
So, after such a monumental waste of our time and money, your offer is for me to give you over $10,000 to upgrade to a machine that will supposedly compensate for our "bad bottles"? First, only one of our bottle sizes has a bottom that could be considered bad, and the machine fails to label any of the sizes straight. Second, Ketan tested this machine with our bottles before you ever shipped it to us, and it can't do any of our bottles well. Why would I ever give you more money in the foolish hope that you might get it right this time and also start supporting us properly? Ketan's track record makes this a terrible option.
Here's a better idea: why don't you buy this machine back from us and sell it to another customer? That would show that you actually stand behind and believe in your products. It is in excellent condition as it has not been used for very many bottles. I'm willing to compromise on the price if you make me a reasonable offer.
Ketan
Ontario,California,
Ketan Response
#3REBUTTAL Owner of company
Sat, November 23, 2013
This report in regards to one of our machines is a very one sided story with selective email communication which is narrated in a manner that is compeltely one sided. If you read through the report their are many times when we (ketan) are referred to as the seller but the bottom line was we were not. This is shown by a few references to one of our resellers in which this company states they had multiple probelms with them as well with regards to other equipment which had nothing to do with us (Ketan).
We are indeed the manufacturer of the LW series machine mentioned and I think anyone can see that we hardly tried to brush this customers issues under the rug. The customer had multiple chances to schedule a service visit with one of our technicians and refused to pay for any such services even though the machine was out of its warrnty period. If you read through the report, you will see that several times there are long lapses in time frames in which the customer states he left the machine sit idle and then justifies it with a narrative of one of our emails. All of the emails shown from any Ketan personnell are offering support or asking him to call and discuss or schedule a service visit.
Apparently it is ok for this customer to get busy and not schedule his service call and then blame that time frame on us (Ketan). This response can get lengthy in order to fix some of the chronological order of events that the customer states but we are going to keep it simple.
We are not the party that sold you this machine but we are the manufaturer and we will help you. No we will not do everything for free as we have taken none of your monies for this machine and you are not within the manufatuer warranty period for the machine
Your first initial contact should have been at the time with your reseller
*****Here is what we can do to help you
All you have to do is call us at (909) 930-0780 and schedule a service visit
Service will offer you a 25% discounted rate on labor and parts that you may need
We will be happy to help you with the touch screen battery backup and I am sure the technician will get everything in working order for you
With regards to products that may have issues---(out of round, bad bottom molds or other imperfections)
We are willing to offer you a trade in price which would allow you to move into a three roll labeling system. It is a system that helps compensate for products that have tapers or bad bottom molds, etc. The price we are offering is $10,080.00.That is 40% off of a new machine