I am filing this report as warning to those would be traders that are thinking of attending a trading seminar promoted by Elliot Wave International.
I stumbled across a seminar promoted by what I thought to be a reputable company, Elliott Wave International. Bottom line is the seminar was an absolute joke and I paid $9,000 + to attend the event. I traveled from the other side of the world to attend a seminar that was falsely mirepresented.
The event was an absolute joke. From day dot it was a disaster. The internet connection kept dropping in and out and the guy who was supposed to be a master trader looked like he crawled out of a rubbish dump and hadn't been to the dentist his whole life. Believe it or not I even lent this guy $800 which to date has still not been repaid not failing numerous (10 emails) attempts to Elliot Wave and the trader Jim Wagner himself. For a guy that makes plenty of money out of the markets but can't repay $800 there is something wrong. I can also provide email correspondance in relation to this matter on request. How can this guy Wayne Stough say Jim Wagner makes a fotune out of the markets and this guy is a genuinely good trader when he has ripped me off blind. Wayne is aware I never received a my money back from Jim.
I have decided to cut and paste my first email to the promoter explaining to them my disgust of the event. Also be advised that I am no dim wit and can actually trade markets and know a pretender when I see one.
Below is my email correspondance with the promoter after I arrived home in Australia.
Email >>>>
Wayne first of all thanks for the response. I think I did stated in the emails I sent through to you that I had not included every single email. If you want more emails from Jim & myself let me know because I have plenty more. Here are my thoughts. on what you have said.
1.) Everything that was advertised in the brochure was fully met.
I don't know about you but I cannot recall any live trading been done. This was meant to be the highlight of the course. The ad even mentioned we would be able to trade our own accounts. Again this was not done. You were there so you know this. Below I have pulled some quotes out from the advertisement and will comment on each one:
- `In fact, he has built a clear process for learning the method - a set of exercises that prove to you over & over that it works. In a few hours I had a good grasp of it'.
If memory serves correct when speaking to yourself after the seminar you told me that after your initial meeting with Jim you really didn't quite get it. After several meetings you had a grasp. I believed you were at the seminar maybe because you still didn't quite get it. Don't worry mate join the club as I still don't get it.
- ` Jim has identified clear buy & sell signals that get you in early on trends, and limit your losses in sideways `brackets'.
We both know what Jim's methods are for limiting losses in sideways movements. Averaging into losers. In our telephone conversation you told me you first learned about this at the seminar. Again it highlights Jim's ability to teach and EWI's lack of research into the method. How could you not know this was part of his method. Shouldn't it have been asked what his methodology was for limiting losses in sideways markets? Again in the telephone conversation you agreed that this was not sound methodology and you queried Jim at the seminar after he had explained this part of the method to the class. If I can recall Jim's response to you was he forgot to tell you about that part. You then asked him if he traded like that? He said yes all the time. I think you were as gob smacked as me but really didn't want to say anything and hoped none of the attendee's would say anything. You also said in the telephone conversation I had with you that if you traded like that on the floor your boss would have sacked you in 2 seconds flat.
- `Jim says trading becomes, ` like pulling socks out of a drawer'
We both know this is not the case as his method is severely floored.
- `He has fun using his hard-won mastery of the markets to make a good living'.
I wouldn't call a couple of years of successful trading in the height of a bull market, mastery. Definetly wouldn't call someone that averages into losers mastery either.
- `Will students have the oppurtunity to make actual trades during the session? Yes, plenty.
How much time do students spend trading live?
You will have approximately 2 & 1/2 days to actually trade the markets in real time.
I don't have to spend much time on this one as you know this did not happen.
Wayne I could go on & on but I am sure you get my point. It definitely was not as advertised.
2.) Every person that attended the seminar gave the class a glowing review.
Wayne I think you will find that most people after a seminar will be quite positive. I don't think people want to admit they have just wasted $4000 and in my case + travelling costs. I really didn't want to admit to myself I had just wasted over $9K.
3.) You wrote that you agreed with Theo's review of the seminar.
My reply is the same as above.
4.) You cannot see crushes real-time. Jim says he can. David I went down to a one minute and could see crushes taking place on the active bar. Something could be mis-programmed in your computer. You need to check.
Wayne there is nothing wrong with my software. The calculation of a Bollinger Band is widely dependent on the closing price. The fact this price is contantly live means the red Bollinger band is active. They cannot be easily seen. I am happy to provide mathematical calculations if required. Once the close comes backs into the red Bollinger Band the crush stands out like dogs balls. The only problem with that is the crush is over by this time. What this means is it is very hard to distinguish whether the price is walking RED line or Crushing. I suppose you could always average in if you get on WRONG side!! (hang on you know my thoughts on this).
5.) Your reference to Nick Leeson blowing up Barings Bank using Jim's approach is not valid as far as I can determine. Jim made money trading for three years in a row and did not bankrupt himself or anyone else.
I don't know how familiar you are with the Barings collapse but Nick Leeson starting trading for the bank in 1992 & bankrupted it in 1995. If my calculations are correct Jim is about done. Maybe he already is done that is why he has decided to hold seminars. I am happy to provide mathematical logic on why averaging doesn't work. I am pretty sure I emailed Jim the mathematics on it and it was met with deafining silence.
6.) I prefer using stops, but Bob Prechter on the other hand prefers a different approach. That is probably why Bob won the trading championship and was able to set himself apart from all other traders. He wrote an article on stops, which I attached to show you that there are two valid schools of thought on the topic. Jim showed you in the seminar what makes HIM successful. This includes averaging and not using stops. How you choose to apply or not apply his seminar is entirely up to you. I am quite sure Jim would say that if you can't trade his way, you won't make money. If you have had trouble making money in the past four years, and you use stops, you may have improved things by having done what Jim did instead. That was the point of the seminar.
Wayne I think you know that not using stops & averaging into losers is doomed for failure. I am actually surprised you are now trying to defend it. You did agree with me in our telephone conversation.
Re your statement about what makes `HIM successful This includes averaging and not using stops. How you choose to apply or not apply his seminar is entirely up to you'. Wayne I just wanted to pull socks out of a drawer. I have no interest in taking bits and pieces. I went to Florida from Australia (27 hr flight) to learn a complete method.
7.) There is one last point. The time to tell me about a problem with a seminar is DURING the seminar, when I can do something about it, or shortly afterward so I can verify your objections. But as I mentioned above, every attendee to the November seminar, including you, gave it a positive review. To come back and complain over two months later seems extremely unusual, to say the least.
As you know Wayne the reason I said nothing at the seminar was because I was in denial. I just spent $9K + and I don't think I wanted to admit to myself I had been had. Most people wont complain after 2 months because they don't like confrontation. It is just like the money back guartantees you see in info-commercials. The seller knows a high percentage if any will take the guarantee up. I guess I am a little unusual. I find it interesting that 2 other people have complained given that people usually do not like confrontation. Maybe this was a really bad product.
From you email it still seems like you are a strong advocate of Jim's teachings which I think is a little funny and contradictary to our phone conversation. If you have such strong feelings about the value of this seminar why has it been pulled from the EWI website??
Wayne I don't know the inner workings of your company and your business relationship with Mr
Wagner. I am only concerned with receiving what was advertised. The advertisement was definetly not an accurate depiction of what was received.
My request still stands of a full refund $4,000 (seminar) + $5K costs approx for travelling.
I look forward to you reply and hope you get over your illness soon.