Great Lakes Classic Cars, LCC. Engels Gualdani Out Right Lied about the Condition of the Car. Required 7k in repairs to bring it to running condition. Rochester New York
Prior to purchasing the 1980 TR7 with 711 miles in advertised "as new" condition from Great Lakes Classic Cars on 12/20/13. I had at least 6 phone conversations going over ever aspect of the car with the owner Engels. I specifically told him I can not drive up and see it, being I am disabled. It was clearly emphasized in each phone conversation, no projects! For the price I was willing to pay him, he assured me the car needed nothing other than to be driven. He stated his shop had been completely through the car. On 6 separate occasions i asked him if there was rust in the gas tank. I told him to inspect it to make sure. He said they flushed it twice and it was good. I asked him if the car was 100% original. Is the paint original? Has any paint work been done? Are the brakes good? Does everything function properly? Has the coolant and fluids been changed? Does it run and drive well? Again, he assured me everything was good and the car was like new. I knew it needed tires, which I had no problem replacing once I received the car. Once I was confident that all basis were covered, I purchased the car from him. He was accommodating in storing it for me, until I could bring it down here on 14 April 2014. He stored it a little over 4 months at no cost. Thought all was good.
Well, when I arranged shipping, what I received was the complete opposite of what him and I discussed on the phone. We were unable to get the car running. For 30 minutes we tried. We thought it was out of gas being the gas gauge showed empty. I added 2 gallons and it overflowed into the street. The gas that came out was rancid. It turned to varnish from sitting in the tank for 25 years. They never flush it, nor inspected the gas tank. Finally after trying and trying we were able to get it up the hill to my home in 1st gear. The car made a hell of a racket because the fan clutch was shot. The driver told me he wasn't going to load the car until Engels said I was aware of that issue, which was a lie. I called him and wanted to ship it back. He out right refused. So thinking it was just a few minor items it needed, I decided to address those issues and see if he would work with me on reimbursement. I had reputable guys from the Triumph club come over and lend a hand. The carburetors that Engels told me were gone through by his shop, weren't touched in over 25 years. The vacuum pots were frozen inside the carbs.. So, now this was going to turn into a real project. Exactly what I told him I didn't want.
The gas tank was drained. Over 12 gallons of varnish I had to dispose of at the county recycling center 40 minutes away. Cost me $80 in gas cans. The tank had 1 1/2" of rust and crud in the bottom of it. The fuel sendor was rotted away. The entire fuel system had to be replaced. New gas tank, new hard fuel lines, new fuel pump, emmission canisters, carbs rebuilt, etc.. Everything in contact with that fuel was ruined, including the cylinder head which I'll get to later. New auto choke had to be sourced. Original was not rebuildable. Next, the coolant system which I asked about and he told me it was good. Yes they flushed it and added in new. The radiator was garbage and I had to get recored. It was completely clogged with white oxidation. It looked like it was pulled from a junk yard, and certainly was not the one that was original to a 700 mile car that needed nothing. The thermostat that he told he replaced, was original to the car. He lied about that. All the hard coolant pipes, to include the intake manifold had to get boiled out. Every coolant line replaced, heater core flushed, etc.. Are the brakes good? He said they went through them. Another lie. All they did was suck out fluid from the reservoir and add in new. The rear drum cylinders were seized from rust. The front caliper lines and calipers were clogged with brown syrup. The rear cylinders had to be replaced, the calipers rebuilt, the lines replaced, and the master cylinder rebuilt because it started leaking brake fluid. The hard lines had to be flushed numerous time to clear out the old crud. Is the clutch good and how does it shift? Works great! We changed the fluid. After driving the car up the hill, the clutch master started leaking too. I noticed this later when the paint on the pedal assembly was bubbling off. The clutch slave was seized. So now the clutch master, slave cylinder, and line all had to be replaced with new. Also there were no shift bushings left. They dry rotted away due to age. Trans and rear fluid replaced? Yes we did all the fluids. Another lie. The rear differential was never opened. The trans fluid was also never touched by his shop. The shocks, struts and springs had to be replaced. Both of the fronts were shot when it arrived. I asked about the shocks and he told me they were good. And, the list goes on and on. Everything that was suppose to be done to this car, wasn't.
Now, once I thought it was all done and ready to drive, the car wouldn't stay running. We did a compression and leak down test only to find out the number 2 intake valve was bent. That means, everything that was just redone and put back on the motor had to come off again, including the radiator. We had to pull the head and send it out to repair. Once we got all done with that, I had to send the car up to a British car specialist to get it running properly. It's close to as new now, but certainly wasn't when he sold it to me. If this isn't out right fraud I don't know what is. I have his original advertisement, photos, receipts, witness, etc.. to back up my claim against him. Now for the part that really aggravates me. I asked if the car was 100% original. He said it was. Guess what? It's not. The car called for a tan interior. It was swapped out to a red tartan at some point. He claims the original owner purchased it this way back in 1981. Can I really believe what he tells me? The paint was mostly original. However, at some point the factory decals were removed and the car was buffed, polished, and sprayed with clear coat futher ruining it's originality. Then, new labels were applied over the clear coat. If this wasn't bad enough, they sprayed the clear coat over the entire engine bay, and door jams, locking in all the dirt and grime under the clear coat. They didn't bother to wash it before shooting that. I spent 40 hours alone cleaning that coating off the original paint in the engine bay, inside of the front hood, and on every wire, nut and bolt because it was such a mess. I suspect the driver's front fender was repainted along with the panel by the gas cap. There was paint over spray/build up on both (under the clear coat). When I sent him up a coolant line with the clear on it, he didn't know what it was. He asked the owner, and conveniently he didn't recall having that done to the car. There's no way it was delivered new like that. Somebody had it done or it wouldn't of been over the original paint. Both this and the interior swap clearly diminish the cars originality and value. This isn't what he advertised, and certainly not what we discussed on the phone.
I paid him $14,500 for this car. Way over what any TR7 is worth. Why, because it was suppose to be 100% original and in need of nothing. I layed out over $7,000.00 in parts and repairs on this car. Not all of which I feel he's responsible for. Refer to the "OUTCOME" section of the complaint. Instead of having a car that was ready to drive in "as new" condition, I took me well over a year to get the car so it was in driveable condition. Due your due diligence before dealing with Great Lake Classic Cars, and make sure you get an independent inspection.
I want reimbursement in the form a check/money order to settle this matter. At this point, I feel that he should pay the total bill that it took to get this car road worthy. Being I did 90% of the labor on it, that is reducing what the bill would of been by by 50% if the car was sent to a shop to have all that required work done. He reimbursed me for $2,400 so far out of a total bill of $4.800.00 in necessary parts and repairs to bring this car to running and safe operating condition. I further want to state, that after I received the $2,400.00 from him, the car still wasn't completed. I thought that's all that was wrong with it at that point. When we went to start it, we discovered the cylinder head had a bent intake valve on the number 2 cylinder. Probably from them running 25 year old gas through the car when they intially tried to start it. The engine had 0 compression in that cylinder. This required us pulling the head and sending it out for repair. The car was then sent out to a reputable British car shop to get it running properly. This was an additional $1,000.00 above the already $4,800.00 I had to lay out. This settlement doesn't even begin to reimburse me for all the time and aggravation he has caused for grossly misrepresenting this car's condition. Refer to his Ebay Advertisement. "As new". I have his original advertisement, correspondence, witness's to include the transportation driver upon when the car was picked up at his location and shipped to my residence. The car ran so poorly, the driver didn't want to load it on his truck. Engels then blatantly lied to him saying I was aware of the cars poor running condition and broken fan clutch to assure him it was ok to ship it out in that condition. I would not of purchased the car knowing that, let alone paying $14,500.00 for it! He was given an opportunity to settle the remaining part of this matter twice, and he refused. A certified letter was mailed out to him 3 weeks ago. No response. Instead of the $1,000 I offered for final settlement with him, I now want the balance of $3,400.00 to be paid for final settlement of this complaint.
2 Updates & Rebuttals
More lies on his behalf.
#3Author of original report
Wed, November 25, 2015
Rebuttal
"As new! Needs Nothing other than to be Driven" http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/tod_tr7/library/TR7
I'll Continue to add to this photobucket link of this grossly misrepresented car from Great Lakes Classic Cars. Now I'll address some of his comments.
BBB - Stating i was slandering him? Another lie. I missed their window for filing the claim, and therefore they dismissed it. The complaint needs to be filed within a year. They suggested that I contact an attorney and pursue legal against him that way. Read for yourself the reply I got back from the BBB.
"This message is in regard to your complaint submitted on 11/9/2015 2:27:36 PM against Great Lakes Classic Cars, LLC.. Your complaint was assigned ID 10944267.
In reviewing the issue you brought to us, it appears that the BBB cannot directly help you with this issue. The BBB does not handle complaints about the following:
The purchase took place 12/2013 and the consumer took possession 4/2014. BBB does not handle complaints that is older than 1 year.
You may wish to consult a legal advisor for advice about your issue. "
Clearly nothing of "slander" is stated in their reply. I'd like to see his claim where slander was indicated. As a matter of fact, I spoke with the women from the Better Bussiness Buero whom was handeling my case on 19 November 2015 at 11.41 am. She essentially restated what I just wrote. When I asked about the slander Engels claimed, she said they made no such claim or accussation. More lies Engels? Slander? How about Fraud on your behalf.
Playing the disability card - Making a comment like that really shows his true colors. I made him well aware I was not able to come up an view the car prior to purchase. What does he do? He takes full advantage knowing that, and lies through his teeth when asked about the car's mechanical conditional and originallity in order to make the sale. I served 12 years in the military, 8 of which were commissioned. It would be safe to say the only thing he ever served in his life was bs.
Begged and pleaded on the phone - To avert turning this into a legal matter, I tried resolving this with him in a civil way over the phone. Begged and pleaded? Your really reaching Engels. You better be thankfull I didn't file a law suite against you from when we first had to push this car off the trailer when it arrived. I didn't get the head back until 1/9/2015. It took up until 5/27/15 to get the car back in proper running condition from Tuxedo Motor Sports.
I also want to add the head was previosly off on this car. The distributor was impropperly aligned to cylinder #3, instead of #1. There was also a dent on the firewall from when it was taken off before. You or whom ever hands it passed through prior, had the spark plug wires jockeyed around to compensate for the distributor being misaligined. I guess your cracker jack shop foreman didn't pick up on that either. Everything we put back on that engine had to come off again in order to correct that issues and timing chain sprocket bracket issue. Well over a year of my time wasted on this car. Did I ask him for reimbursement for labor? No I did not. I was being MORE than reasonable with him in asking him to pay for this final issue with the car.
Gummed up fuel lines? That would be an understatement. EVERYTHING in contact with that 25 year old fuel he ran through that motor needed to be replaced or rebuilt. If I didn't ask him at least half a dozen times about that fuel system then it would of been my bad. But for him to blattenly lie about it to make a sale, shame on him for telling me his shop went through everything when they clearly never did. Or should I say, half assed at best. For you to tell me you flushed that system 2x and went throught the carbs? Another lie on your end. Explain the 12+ gallons of 25 year old varnish I had to dispose of that came out of that gas tank. End of the day Engels, your responsible for what they did or didn't do. It's a reflection on you and your bussiness.
Transportation. Yes I did go with your reccomendation for enclosed carrier. The problem wasn't with the transportation company, the problem is with your fribulous advertisment. Understand the difference? The driver is one of many your refered dispatch company uses. The driver told me he'd never transport another car from your bussiness again. He was quite willing to give a writen statement in the event I filed a law suite against you. He even made a video clip of the car not being able to start. What was your response? Oh Briish cars are finicky to get started. Charge me top dollar and send it out with a broken fan clutch, not to mention all it's issues? Really. Starts right up now, after all the work was done to it.
This car was discussed in depth on one of the car sites. Durning the Ebay auction, several commentors thought "shill bidding" was going on, due to a zero feedback user being the high bidder, and bidding it up. Low and behold, the high zero feedback bidder backed out on the sale. I'm mearly conveying what they said on the forum, and withholding my opinoin on that. One member contacted Engels about the swapped interior he picked up on. Another on the odometer reading, being 1979/1980 Federal cars had 85 mph speedometers. This car has a 140 mph speedometer. This is not always the case from what I read, but the majority of the time they had 85s. Engels did not reply back to them. One of the local Triumph club memmbers that lent a hand in fixing this car commented, "The only thing that guy has in his shop is a buffer and bottle of armoral."
Engels was well aware of the interior swap before our initial conversation even took place. When I asked if the car is 100% original, he said yes. The window sticker which clearly states tan interior, was not shown on his Ebay advertisement for good reason. He obviously didn't want to disclose the swap. Weather it happened at the dealership or sometime after doesn't matter, it's not original like he represented it to be. Again, the entire car's body was sprayed with clear coat. Take a look at the engine photos. For a guy with such a stellar reputation, he couldn't pick up on that? Or, maybe he just didn't want to disclose it.
Titiling issue - I spent 3 Saturday mornings wasted at motor vehicle trying to title the car because he didn't provide the proper lein release for the car. 45 minute ride each way. Did he do it right away, yes. But he really didn't have a choice in the matter. During the conversations we had trying to resolve this titling issue, he wanted me to leave him possitive feedback. Seriously? Obsolutely dillusional thinking I was going leaving him good feed back for a car that need $6k in neccessary repairs to just get it road worthy. He only reimbursed me $2400 of that amount. How much do you think the labor bill would of been to do all this work? Another $6k? He also stated he wasn't wasn't going to pay for the cylinder head repair and didn't want negative feedback. I gave him another opportunity to man up and do the right thing with a letter that was sent out in certified mail on 10/21/2015. No responce. I further stated in the letter that if he refused to pay for that repair work, which was over $1,000.00, he would get the feed back he deserves. This should come to no surprise to him.
Here's is a link of pictures I upload of the this "as new. Just needs to be driven" car. The pictures dont lie. http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/tod_tr7/library/TR7 Judge for yourself if this is what you would consider "as new" and "in need of nothing other than to be driven." Now ask yourself, is this what you would expect from a car that's been completely gone through by his shop?
Is every car in his inventory this grossly misrepresented? I seriously doubt it or he'd be out of bussiness. But, like I stated earlier, due your due dilligence when dealing with this guy. This is not the first time a BBB complaint was filed against him either.
Great Lakes Classic Cars
Rochester,New York,
USA
In response to Tod J Worden rant and attempted slandering beyond cause
#3REBUTTAL Owner of company
Tue, November 17, 2015
Often and currently we in this society feel like the silent majority, mostly due to being incapable to conprehend the extent people will go to force their perceptive or ideals down on us whom day in and out do what is believe is righteous and in a sense good. We get up in the morning and lead our lives by example and the best way possible as to in many ways become a beacon to our following generations in the hopes for a better tomorrow; Again only to encounter those whom no matter what you do will make a positive impact enough where they won't parasite on your good will or take advantage of good deeds or worse yet bleed you because no matter what you do is enough for them.
Currently, I find myself in exact that position...
I am an Antique, Classic, and Sports Car Auto Dealer; A reputable one at that! However Mr. Tod Worden will go out of his way to tarnish that by making sure that my business and my name is predominantly and publicly listed.
So, though I do not believe in these propaganda filled websites that take a good cause and reason for being and over time become a pool filled with ill intentions and a soap box for those with enough anger in their small frame to make a stink about just anything.
I recently had to replace my parking brakes on my truck because they were worn un-even and one side squealed a lot. Now, my truck is a 2011, I had never used my parking brakes and I should probably say that my truck has extremely low miles. I didn't call up the dealer and say "Hey! I never used my parking brakes and they need replacing. If you won't cover it, I will threaten you with public slander on you and your business and hurt your reputation. No, I didn't do that. Maybe, according to Mr. Worden I should have. But I won't and would never.
In response directly to Mr. Tod J. Worden's claims. He did indeed purchase a 700 mile car from 1980. And he requested that I store the car for him as I did for a bit over 4 months while he remodeled his garage. Today, he plays the incapacitated card which this is the first time I have heard of it but it sounds better on his cause, doesn't it? He paid for the car and paperwork and documentation was sent out as would on any regular transaction. Those of you whom are not familiar with these British cars, ask anyone,,, they are great vehicles however very finicky and they do tend to need a bit more attention than our common run of the mill American grocery getters.
The TR-7 under its own power was loaded on a trailer and parted our facility towards Mr. Worden's location of arrangement. A few times he had called and I always tended to his conversations as I would with the many hundreds of my clients. I take so much pride in being part of the conservation and affinity for this hobby that I go above and beyond the expressed and implied responsibility of the typical auto dealer be it new or used especially a classic car dealer whom most all our vehicles fall out of the spectrum of any warranty. Which brings me to another small factoid on this transaction,,, The vehicle is nearly 36 years old and was sold via online auction as is without any warranties expressed or implied and yet I found myself once again now feeling like I was played the sucker giving goodwill moneys to Mr. Worden.... 2,400.00 to be exact! He called, pleaded, and asked for help for some restoration to the old and gummed up fuel system and I remember the conversation vividly saying that I wanted him to enjoy the car and I wanted to help him with it. Also did it because I am a dear friend of the original owner. A well regarded, educated, worldly elder with the wherewithal and well cultured in automobiles and collecting them, a gentleman whom for sure would curl over in pain at the site of Mr. Worden's poor claims of the vehicle's originality or kept condition. I gave him the money anyways and now I hear from him again...
That hardly sounds like an unfair and bad person or car dealer... Since this is beginning to sound ridiculous and a lot similar to the sounding board Mr. Worden intended it to be. I will finish with these simple statements...
- The BBB 'Better Business Bureau' received the letter with the written threat of slander forwarded by me as well as the actual complaint sent in by Mr. Worden and found that two years later and a 36 year old car does not constitute a demand for reimbursement on his behalf. In conclusion they also found that my business and I acted graciously and did indeed go above and beyond expected and without requirement attempted to maintain a satisfied customer.
I have come to the conclusion year after year that you may not be able to please everyone and that's ok, we just do what we do in the best and upstanding way possible and try as hard as we can (sensibly) everyday to make the present and the next day better than the last. I thank my many current customers for their continued business and appreciation.