Honda Of San Francisco San Francisco Honda ripoff playing with the contract to get more money out of me, liars harassing and threatening San Francisco California
My husband and I purchased a Honda Element (demo car) on 6/26/05. We traded in our 2003 Dodge Neon (they gave us $5,900, but the payoff is $8,000) and 2003 Saturn Vue (they gave us $12,000, but the payoff is $11,500). We negotiated and agreed on a price, payment and payoff amount for our two cars. When I got the Honda home I noticed a significant scratch to the plasticky bumper and a small scrath on the passenger door. Meanwhile, Honda sent a friendly e-mail message stating "Thank you, we appreciate your business, if there's anything we can do, please feel free to call..." I replied to this e-mail, asking if there's anything they can do about the scratches to the Honda. Honda did not reply. I decided to let it go. After all, it is a demo.
A few days later Honda called and told me I needed to come in, or they could come to my house, to re-sign the sales agreement, because the contract was written up incorrectly and that I actually owed them more money because the payoff amounts on my two cars were higher than expected. I called Dodge and Saturn and the payoff amounts were EXACTLY what Honda told me when the contract was written up. The complicated sales contract only lists the Dodge Neon and at a price that doesn't make any sense to me at all, based on the numbers we discussed, so I can't make heads or tails out of it. Honda called numerous times harassing and threatening me, stating they are not going to pay off my trade-ins and that I would be receiving a $2,000 bill from my bank plus the monthly payments on both cars. Meanwhile, all three of these cars are still in my name and my monthly payments are due in 2 days!!! I have excellent credit and I want to keep it that way, so I guess I'm stuck paying my monthly payments on the old cars.
San Francisco Honda told me I can hire an attorney but I wouldn't win anyway so I might as well re-sign the sales agreement.
Is this a proper way to do business? Is this legal?
Rhonda
San Francisco, California
U.S.A.
11 Updates & Rebuttals
Michael
Barnegat,New Jersey,
U.S.A.
They made the mistake...
#12Consumer Suggestion
Mon, July 11, 2005
And now you're paying for it. I'm going to assume they messed up the entering of your two trades and this is what caused the issue. Was it something along the lines of what I'd posted before? Confusing the values and the payoffs?
In any case, the important thing is you and your husband are happy. When you get right down to it, you most likely could have made the dealer keep the payments the same as you'd been quoted them in writing, mistakenly or not, but in the long run it's probably not worth the time and effort to go through the potential law suit. Besides, if you've resigned the paperwork, it's too late anyway! :)
Best of luck, hope we were able to help!
Rhonda
San Francisco,California,
U.S.A.
WORKED IT OUT
#12Author of original report
Sat, July 09, 2005
Thanks, everyone, for your input and support. I REALLY appreciate it.
Soooo... My husband and I went to the dealership because we were way too upset. My husband and I vented our complete dissatisfaction. The General Manager and a finance person (different than the people over the phone) apologized for the screw-up and re-wrote a correct contract. My mind was more prepared for numbers today and everything is now legitimate. Honda also agreed to repair my bumper this Wednesday and give me a loaner car while it's being repaired. Honda also agreed to add sidesteps to our car, at our request,(our 2-year-old and 5-year-old are having a hard time getting in the car),for about half of what it would normally cost us.
The reason why we had to trade in the two cars was because my husband's license was revoked on May 15th this year due to a rare disease in his eyes that renders him legally blind. I didn't want to go through the hassle of selling his Neon to a private party. I'm really nervous about that whole process, and none of our friends or family members were interested in taking over payments, on either car. Since we only need one car now, we decided the best thing to do was to just give up both of the cars for one vehicle that the whole family agreed on - Honda Element.
The only downside is that my payments have increased from $403 per month to $441 per month. I guess it's better than having my credit score go from excellent to horrible, especially since I'm planning on refinancing my home this month.
Thanks again!
Paul
Anaheim,California,
U.S.A.
This is not an honest mistake. Car dealers don't hand away cars unless they know where the money is coming from to pay for them.
#12Consumer Suggestion
Sat, July 09, 2005
They don't send you driving off into the sunset unless they are 100% sure you will be approved for financing.
And, any trade you leave behind is already taken into account.
They have a guy called the desk who double-checks the deals. Nobody drives off until he can see the money to pay for the car.
So, this is simply another car dealer scam. They wait till you're home, then call you up and extort more money out of you.
They all do this, so there is no place to go to get away from it.
You know, there is a way to stop this, once and for all. Simply write a letter to the car manufacturer and explain that you would like to buy a car, but that you're not willing to be cheated by the car dealer ripoffs.
Tell the manufacturer that you will wait until you can buy the car directly from the factory.
Then, do exactly that.
After 90 days of no sales, the factories will see they have to do something.
Bye, bye car dealer crooks.
Like all frauds, the car salesmen only get to continue as long as people are willing to go in and keep getting ripped off.
Paul
Anaheim,California,
U.S.A.
Undo the deal. Take back what you had. Give them back what they had. Then, you're even again.
#12Consumer Suggestion
Sat, July 09, 2005
These are typical car dealer con games. The best thing you can do is unwind the deal and walk away.
You had two good cars. So, stay out of the dealerships until they are both worn completely out. That way, you will end up getting ripped off fewer times in life.
Michael
Barnegat,New Jersey,
U.S.A.
Something is very very wrong...
#12Consumer Suggestion
Sat, July 09, 2005
Sure looks to me like they screwed up somewhere. According to the numbers you've posted you're getting something to the tune of 12701 for the Neon and paying off 11554.17 on the Vue... yet there is no mention of the Vue's value. I plugged the numbers in at my dealership and it looks like they just plain forgot to enter the Vue's trade value, and in addition to that somehow confused the two payoffs... and then forgot to enter one of the cars.
Basically, the whole thing looks like a major screw up on their part.
Do you have anything in writing where they accepted both trade-in's? It almost looks to me like they decided not to trade in the Neon at all, but accidentally typed the Neon as the trade-in.
If you know who the bank they're planning to finance through is I would call them right away and tell them the contract is incorrect and the dealership appears to be planning on sending one of your trade-in's as a reposession.
Anyone else see something different here?
Rhonda
San Francisco,California,
U.S.A.
NUMBERS ON CONTRACT
#12Author of original report
Sat, July 09, 2005
Thank you for the comments I received. Here are the numbers:
Negotiated trade in values: Dodge Neon = $5900 and the payoff is approximately $8,000; Saturn Vue = 12,000, and the payoff is 11,554. My monthly payments are 403.86. They offered me GAP coverage but I declined. At the top of the document under "Total Sales Price" there are two numbers contained in a box directly underneath one another: 1,146.83 and 25,378.43
Honda says they gave me $500 off for being a Costco member, maybe this was part of the negotiated price. We negotiated "$24,000 out the door." 3.9% interest, amount financed 21,947.45, finance charge $2,284.15, total of payments 24,231.60
ITEMIZATION:
A. Cash Price of Motor Vehicle/accessories $21,021.85
1. Cas price vehicle $21,021.85
doc. prep. $45.00
sales tax $1790.68
optional DMV electronic filing $28.00
Total Cash Price $22, 885.53
2. License fees (estimated) $200.00
CA tire fees $8.75
Total Official Fees 208.75
5. Subtotal $23,094.28
6. Total Downpayment 2003 Dodge Neon $12,701.00
Less prior credit or lease balance $11,554.17
Net Trade-in (indicate if negative number) $1146.83
Total downpayment $1146.83
7. Amount financed $21,947.45
None of the above numbers look familiar to me, but I'm not an accountant, lawyer, finance person, etc.
IF SOMEONE CAN FIGURE THIS OUT FOR ME, THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART. IF I AM WRONG AND I DO OWE HONDA $2,000, PLEASE TELL ME THAT ALSO AND I WILL PAY THE MONEY. I AM A CHRISTIAN AND A LAW-ABIDING CITIZEN. I WORK FOR A JUDGE AT SUPERIOR COURT AND THE LAST THING I WANT TO DO IS RIP SOMEONE OFF AND DESTROY MY EXCELLENT REPUTATION AND GOOD NAME.
Michael
Barnegat,New Jersey,
U.S.A.
Check other paperwork! many purchase orders do not have the space necessary
#12Consumer Suggestion
Sat, July 09, 2005
In the case where you have two trade-ins, many purchase orders do not have the space necessary to seperate the two and lump all the numbers together. Finance contracts, however, quite often have room for two trade-ins. Take a look on your finance agreement paperwork and see if the numbers make any more sense on that document.
The other point you mentioned was the damage on the car- more often than not you sign a waiver stating the vehicle is sold 'cosmetically as-is' when purchasing a dealer demo. When you get a demo the price should be lower than a regular new car due to the fact it's a demo, but you have to live with any cosmetic damage on the car.
If your credit is good there's no real reason to change the numbers other than the fact the dealer screwed up somewhere. If I had to guess I'd say either the Sales or Business Manager forgot to enter one of the payoffs or entered one of them incorrectly. It would help if you either posted the numbers, line by line, from the sales agreement and finance agreement, or if you were to scan the documents and post them here (just make sure you remove your personal information, all we need are the numbers).
As for you 'automatically' losing the law suit, that's a crock. Generally when the 'little guy' takes the 'big nasty dealer' to court, it's the dealer who loses. I'd get my attorney on the phone right away were I you.
Hope this helps!
Mike
Radford,Virginia,
U.S.A.
Do NOT re-sign! the deal is void
#12Consumer Suggestion
Sat, July 09, 2005
Bring the Element back and hand them the keys. Demand that they give you your old cars back. Since they said they won't honor their end of the deal by paying off the old cars, the deal is void. Make the payments on the cars when they're due to avoid bad credit. You should get this money back if the dealer ends up paying them off after all.
Make sure that yor contract does indeed say that they will pay off the old cars. Sometimes they are "written out" entirely by dishonest dealers. If that's the case you don't have a lot of recourse other than to complain to regulatory agencies. Keep any and all papers that you have in a safe place. Bring copies to the dealer but not the originals.
The numbers on the Neon may have been fudged to make it look like it was worth more than the payoff. Some lenders require that in order to approve the new loan. The dealer will add some "funny money" to the trade-in value, then add the same amount to the price of the new car so it ends up being the same net amount (unless they abuse this process to perpetrate a further rip-off).
It may be that the original deal is approved and now they're just trying to shake you down for more money. If that's the case and you REFUSE TO SIGN ANYTHING you will end up keeping the Element for the original price and getting the other cars paid off. If they try to force you to keep the Element, that probably means that they have been paid for it, thus they also have the money to pay off the other cars. All will eventually be OK as long as you REFUSE TO SIGN ANYTHING.
Mike
Radford,Virginia,
U.S.A.
Do NOT re-sign! the deal is void
#12Consumer Suggestion
Sat, July 09, 2005
Bring the Element back and hand them the keys. Demand that they give you your old cars back. Since they said they won't honor their end of the deal by paying off the old cars, the deal is void. Make the payments on the cars when they're due to avoid bad credit. You should get this money back if the dealer ends up paying them off after all.
Make sure that yor contract does indeed say that they will pay off the old cars. Sometimes they are "written out" entirely by dishonest dealers. If that's the case you don't have a lot of recourse other than to complain to regulatory agencies. Keep any and all papers that you have in a safe place. Bring copies to the dealer but not the originals.
The numbers on the Neon may have been fudged to make it look like it was worth more than the payoff. Some lenders require that in order to approve the new loan. The dealer will add some "funny money" to the trade-in value, then add the same amount to the price of the new car so it ends up being the same net amount (unless they abuse this process to perpetrate a further rip-off).
It may be that the original deal is approved and now they're just trying to shake you down for more money. If that's the case and you REFUSE TO SIGN ANYTHING you will end up keeping the Element for the original price and getting the other cars paid off. If they try to force you to keep the Element, that probably means that they have been paid for it, thus they also have the money to pay off the other cars. All will eventually be OK as long as you REFUSE TO SIGN ANYTHING.
Mike
Radford,Virginia,
U.S.A.
Do NOT re-sign! the deal is void
#12Consumer Suggestion
Sat, July 09, 2005
Bring the Element back and hand them the keys. Demand that they give you your old cars back. Since they said they won't honor their end of the deal by paying off the old cars, the deal is void. Make the payments on the cars when they're due to avoid bad credit. You should get this money back if the dealer ends up paying them off after all.
Make sure that yor contract does indeed say that they will pay off the old cars. Sometimes they are "written out" entirely by dishonest dealers. If that's the case you don't have a lot of recourse other than to complain to regulatory agencies. Keep any and all papers that you have in a safe place. Bring copies to the dealer but not the originals.
The numbers on the Neon may have been fudged to make it look like it was worth more than the payoff. Some lenders require that in order to approve the new loan. The dealer will add some "funny money" to the trade-in value, then add the same amount to the price of the new car so it ends up being the same net amount (unless they abuse this process to perpetrate a further rip-off).
It may be that the original deal is approved and now they're just trying to shake you down for more money. If that's the case and you REFUSE TO SIGN ANYTHING you will end up keeping the Element for the original price and getting the other cars paid off. If they try to force you to keep the Element, that probably means that they have been paid for it, thus they also have the money to pay off the other cars. All will eventually be OK as long as you REFUSE TO SIGN ANYTHING.
Mike
Radford,Virginia,
U.S.A.
Do NOT re-sign! the deal is void
#12Consumer Suggestion
Sat, July 09, 2005
Bring the Element back and hand them the keys. Demand that they give you your old cars back. Since they said they won't honor their end of the deal by paying off the old cars, the deal is void. Make the payments on the cars when they're due to avoid bad credit. You should get this money back if the dealer ends up paying them off after all.
Make sure that yor contract does indeed say that they will pay off the old cars. Sometimes they are "written out" entirely by dishonest dealers. If that's the case you don't have a lot of recourse other than to complain to regulatory agencies. Keep any and all papers that you have in a safe place. Bring copies to the dealer but not the originals.
The numbers on the Neon may have been fudged to make it look like it was worth more than the payoff. Some lenders require that in order to approve the new loan. The dealer will add some "funny money" to the trade-in value, then add the same amount to the price of the new car so it ends up being the same net amount (unless they abuse this process to perpetrate a further rip-off).
It may be that the original deal is approved and now they're just trying to shake you down for more money. If that's the case and you REFUSE TO SIGN ANYTHING you will end up keeping the Element for the original price and getting the other cars paid off. If they try to force you to keep the Element, that probably means that they have been paid for it, thus they also have the money to pay off the other cars. All will eventually be OK as long as you REFUSE TO SIGN ANYTHING.