Complaint Review: ICF Build - ICF Distrubution - Kelly Wash

It funny what Kelly leaves out and you can see that he is no trying to find humility in his explanations. You can see from the start that Kelly Wash is a pretty good salesman. He know a lot about ICF and a single eco-block form, but put it all together as an entire structure wall with the end goal of a house, he does not have the complete process.

It was a blessing by disguise when my neighbour was helping me to install the main 2 supporting post for the above floors in the basement which actually Kelly measured out and placed a huge concrete support underneath but only a 1.5 foot base in the wrong location.

One post was already installed in the wrong location outside of this base which litterally sat on the radiant floor. My neighbour Jimmy drilled and ruptured the radiant tube which is how we found out that was in the wrong location. The plumber, Jimmy and myself all looked at Kelly with shock and disbelief on what the enormity of this issue. Jimmy was already shouting at Kelly with the name "D###HEAD" and appologizing to me. We had to move the one post.

So, we had one post already installed in the wrong place. I had to delicately jackhammer the already ruptured line myself so I don't make another hole. And jackhammer to find the base. We jacked up the floor beam and moved the post over to the base. We found cracks on the basement floor already from the existing bolts of the previously installed bolts when I swept the dust from the floor. It leads from the previously located bolts of one post directly to the other wrongly installed post.


You see Kelly's comment. He would just have left it there and ran away which he did quite commonly. That was another comment from his labourers which concerned me from the beginning. Kelly's comment at the time was floors always crack.


Kelly, litterally was not to be found after that incident. He came in just to pour a rough concrete over the hole I created to fix the broken pipe.

I think Kelly's comment on my stress and emotional issues were pretty much correct in some ways. If you ask Jimmy, all the labours, they enjoyed working with me. I was focused to get the house done and correctly.

When huge issues occured mostly from you know who, I did not get upset and provided fixes for this issues. They were pretty shocked at my attitude of get it done and if something is wrong just fix it. It happens like in any designs which is what I'm used to fixing things. You have people in trust and waiting. You cannot focus on the error just the solution and keep on going. Like I said, you don't have to ask me or Kelly to get a third party opinion. It's only when Kelly showed up shouting and yelling at his guys and his brother, plus my issues with him that I kept very quiet and gave my opinion on fixes when needed.

Yep, my girlfriend left me, I could not focus on her and she knew that. I had to finish building a house.

The reason why there is a bow on one of my walls is that he likes to hire this really old guy name Ed. Don't get me wrong, Ed is a really nice old guy with a ton of experience, but he doesn't read drawings or even tries sometimes. You just have to work along side him to make sure he is doing things correctly.

Kelly would always come screaming and yelling on his mistakes when he left him alone to do a task. Then Kelly would leave again and left Ed alone on the site. Instead, I worked with Ed, read the drawings and helped him out. Kelly and I had to let him go because of Ed's previouse errors and it was just costing to much. I think he enjoyed working with me because he would always come back and even when the job was completed I gave him the tour of the house.

I actually had a great time working with all of Kelly labourers and my neighbour Jimmy. Of course, the exception is drunken carpenters which I had to fire along side of Kelly.

Most of Kelly's guys on my house were pretty much learning from Kelly, since he was the supposedly expert. Kelly did have one guy who was really good but left because of a drinking issue and personal issue. I can't remember his name, but I hope he is doing well. He had great attitude and focused when on site. This guy actually started the walls but had to leave due to personal family issues. I hope he is ok now. This guy was really good just can't remember his name.

Because Kelly did not have enough resources because he was actually working on 2 houses which he later admitted that was his mistake, we hired another group of ICF professionals who did an amazing job on the first floor walls. They taught both me and Kelly a few things. They also left me with some of Kelly's stories which did not surprise me. I was just happy that the walls were almost completed.

If you want to know more about contractors, ask the people that work with, along side, indirectly with and home owners. The funny thing in Kelly's comment is that he said that he will never work with HOMEOWNERS. I have to tell you Kelly, HOMEOWNERS are your customer and you are responsible for their saftey. They pay you to do a job. Even if you are a sub-contractor, you still have to ensure that your job in the end goes to the HOMEOWNER.

I fired Kelly after his set of carpenters didn't show up for the nth time because they had major issues of drinking or on other jobs. These were the guys that owed him money and they made major mistakes on my roof. That's when Kelly pleaded with me and confessed that they owed him money. So, I hired professional carpenters and they showed me all the issues, straightened my roof, fixed a structural issue and it was great working with them.

Yep Kelly, we all made mistakes when building my house. I didn't run away from them because I was building my house since you weren't there. I had to make sure that there were solutions.

The biggest mistake was trusting you with that salesman attitude and you did this job since it is close to your home.

The worst thing you got was an engineer beside you fixing your mistakes and kept on going like a machine focused to finish the house. My neighbour Jimmy and I agreed that you never had any "forethought".

Aside from Kelly and his couple sets of carpenters, I had a great time working with all the skilled and unskilled labourers. To Kelly's brother, keep a close eye on this guy because the last time I remember him on top of the 50 ft wall dancing will one leg, scaringly joking that it would be a bad thing if jump off and killed himself. He was not wearing any safety harness. No matter if he has a life insurance, I think his wife and son would lose a husband and father. All the rest of us were really scared and Kelly said I had issues...

Come to think about it, I don't know Kelly personally and always got pretty bad opinions from his labourers, brother and Jimmy. But, I hope outside of this that he is a loving father and husband.

Take if from an experienced professional engineer always working in a team environment:

- you know nothing and there is everything to be learned.
- Always be humble, because you can always find better ways do something that is more qualified with years of experience.
- your end customer, you are responsible for and risks cannot be taken if lives are at stake.
- never get upset at errors, just find solutions. Dwelling and constantly yelling at people doesn't solve anything because you have a job to get done especially with your labourers that is just learning. That's my moto.
- if you admit when it happens and find immediate solutions and always ask for help. That's how you work as a team.


I see from you response that you finally got some humility. I wish I saw this before you took on the responsibility. This constant reminder hopefully has helped you indirectly. As an professional engineer and past aircraft engineer, I'm constantly reminded that I'm responsible for people's lives are at stake everytime that aeroplane flies or just even stands there. You cannot walk away from that. This is what you have to impose on your team working with you. The homeowner/customer trust is in your hands and you have to be completely honest when with all your limits when taking on the responsibility of a job.

It is not just a ICF wall, it is an integral part of a house that some one will live in.

Well like I said Kelly, good luck with your future,

Patrick

When Kelly said that I lost my job, he is correct that I got laid off from my pernament job in end of October 2003. But, Kelly started the demolision in the begining of September 2003. I had contracts lined up which I could not accept because my parents could not trust Kelly due to him never showing up. Even when I accepted contracts and worked abroad, I had to cut them short because of news from my neighbours, neighbour helping me, and parents that Kelly and his guys are never there. You can see it all in his list of hours and time when on my site.

My father took you out for lunch after I got the demolision permit signed which you said you would take care of just before I left the country for work abroad. Some how your memory isn't that correct.

Like I said, does a home owner, who just went with the word of a contractor and lost his entire existing house, have to be a builder, carpenter and structures person at the sametime. When you don't see anyone working at your house for weeks, who should take responsibility of the issue? I had worried parents without a home and comeback from my abroad jobs to find out nobody is there. It is very stressfull if a home owner has to take time off work to actually work on the foundation, walls, roof, floors that Kelly is supposed to do. I would been great if I had a local job, but I still would not have seen the issues if I worked along side them.

Kelly Wash, you can claim that you are not a home builder now, but your paperwork of items says otherwise. Why the hell would I demolish my house if I new you could not build it. The other guys comment is pretty correct. Everyone shouild have a contract of itemized deliverables with penaties if they are late.

I have another good example of Kelly's fixes which I have a picture of. He suggested having a main support beam of the roof attached to the side of the concrete wall with about 20 concrete tapcons. I told him repeadedly that would just turn the concrete to powder. He still went ahead selling me the idea of how much he knows and the end result was powder. I told him to put high shear bolts through the wall with a plate mounts to support the beam.

I could tell you so many stories of his first set of carpenters which he fired while they made mistakes on my foundation. Ask him next time what is the definition of under pinning. Remember he is supposed to be good on concrete walls and foundation. I had to jack hammer out a stupid 4ft X 3ft X 3ft mistake myself after I showed him that it is not under pinning and going into my living area. Remember my wall is supposed to only be about 12inches thick in my basement. I remember Kelly trying to sell this thing as an amazing great work from his carpenter, instead I showed him that it is a huge block of concrete in the middle of no where, supporting nothing at all.

What disappoints me is that Kelly Wash learned how to build a house on my dime. I taught him all the fixes from his own errors. I wish these contractors would build their own house first as proof that they can do it.

Aside from Kelly Wash, eco-block is an excellent design. If you don't need to be tornado proof, I suggest 2inch X 6 inch bamboo/wood/aluminium studded walls. Thus you can add almost 5.5 inches of foam which will give you the same insulation value of eco-block and be less expensive. It will still give you added strength. Just think of filling a box of styro-foam and try to sit on it. The wooden/bamboo beams would less likely to buckle but it will still have the maximum compression limit.

What I have learned from this asside from learning how to build a house is just what Mike Holmes and the other person who commented this,

"Get tons of referals"
"Get a contract based of fixed cost and items, no time and labour"
"Don't be sold by a salesman"
"Don't trust any contractor"

The funny thing though, a lot of developers were asking me questions and advice because they knew I had the correct process and knowledge how to build a eco-block house. They were even offering me jobs for designs and being a lead program manager for their projects.

I'm happy with my house, it was an expensive learning experience. Probably can do it a lot cheaper without all the fixes and a lot faster.

The plumber, dry-wallers, electrician, brick layers, paver were all great. I would refer all of them. My carpenters that I hired in the end to fix the issues were great.

Hopefully, Kelly Wash has learned a lot and is a better builder from all this. I just hope he can apply what he learned on my house with my fixes.

I wish you good luck Kelly and your homeowners of your projects.

Patrick

I can take Kelly's points about me not being there. Because I had to fly back and find out that they are never working at my house everyday which is why it took them 2 months to demolish. That is correct, I was guaranteed by Kelly that it was all taken care of. In terms of lying to the city, we asked the city what we can an cannot do and we took their advice. So, Kelly are you saying that the city is wrong? Like I said, we had to change our designs to meet with eco-block designs.

It is strange that we originally went with Scugog Lumber which had all the correct designs because I showed it to Rocket Lumber as an aid to fix their issues. These Scugog design were agreed with the the so called really bad architect and Scugog designer. The engineer of rocket lumber was completely shocked how simple and correct they were. The engineer of rocket lumber complaint was that he never got any communication from Kelly Wash. We already had Lake Scugog Lumber as the original lumber company and all the designs were completed. Kelly made the decision to go with Rocket. This is supposed to be my fault? I find it strange that all Rocket's drawings have Kelly's signatures of approval.

How can I hire my own carpenters if they are subcontracted through Kelly. If you look at the supposedly itemized list for the complete project that is supposed to be done by this man, it includes the floors and roof because he had great carpenters. Well these guys owed him money and after spending an additionaly $50K on my roof, foundation and thank god I was there to stop them for my concrete windows openings. I actually read the drawings which these guys don't.

Kelly wasn't really there with the exception of the concrete pouring. He was always really excited about that. My neighbour always referred to him as a male genetalia if I'm allowed to say that.

After all is said and done, the city officials actually trusted me and my fixes rather than these contractors. The city officials comment was, "you can never trust any contractor. They don't have any real certification that you can sue them with or send them to jail for." They said, "thank god you are an engineer to look over you own house, because these guys try to hide as much as they can and try to slip it through the cracks."

I remember the main comment of the guys that worked with me on the house and most people who indirectly watched were,

"Patrick knows how to do this 10X better than Kelly and why is Patrick doing all the tough manual labour and where is Kelly."

I remember the time Kelly broke the water main with the back h*e. All of us were shaking our heads calling him his most common nick name. He never listened to use to stop when we could actually see the pipe leading to my house and told him that we will dig manually to the water main since it was only a couple of feet. I still have a picture of that 20 to 30 foot gusher.

That's pretty much the entire story of Kelly working at my house. A bull in a china glass house.

Kelly, you have copies of your letter and all the pictures. Why don't you show them so they could laugh about it. In the end, I'm the pretty sicken on who paid for it and left with it. But, I fixed it myself. Can you do that?

Regards,

Patrick

I don't really have to say anything. I have all the pictures of my house. I even have a signed letter to his employes that threatened to sue him. I have his signature on Rockett Lumber drawings which have trusses going through concrete walls. He didn't even want to fire his employees no matter how bad they were because he said they owed him money. Instead, I had to take measures to fire them myself and he pleaded with me to have them stay because of his own personal issues with them.

I'm a professional engineer by trade stricken to uphold the code of ethics and law. What code does these contractors hold? These contractors are held by any code. Honesty, I have to be honest to ensure the safety of the end consumer or people that might be hurt. If he would apply to be an engineer which he will never be, I would never grant him that priviledge because it would be an endangerment to the people.

Regards,
Patrick

More than three years after working on Patrick's house, I am still sickened when I reflect on the turn of events that took place during the demolition of his mother and fathers home and construction of a new home

First of all Patrick hired an unqualified designer to act as an architect.
During the design and permit procurement process of the new structure, the designer took far to much time to get his act together and organise the many items that need to be in place before submitting drawings for the permit process. When I took over the demolition permit was still not available nor was the building permit approval finalised. Patrick lost faith in the designer and no longer worked with him

Patrick was working out town when I first met him and in order to accomodate his schedule we had to meet on Sundays. Originally I was asked to help provide the walls for the structure as this is my speciality. I work with ICF's (insulated concrete forms). I have built several million dollars worth of structures in the residential/commercial and industrial sector and never had the headaches I experienced with the Chin residence.

By the time I had heard Patrick's cries for help, he had me acting as his project coordinator. Patrick is an engineer so in his mind he can do anything including manage the construction of his parents home from the other side of the continent. Patrick was working in California at the time. He would come back to Mississauga Ontario when time afforded. I was asked to help him find someone to demolish the home and build the walls. Patrick had his own carpenters that would put the floors and roof on.

I offered to help get the permit process going as it was obvious that Patrick couldn't as he was not around and his parents were not able to deal with the bureaucratic process. When I showed up for demolition permits I was quickly told that I could not get one with out the signature and consent of the owners hence requiring Patrick and some delay. Furthermore when trying to get a building permit for the new house, it became aware that either the designer or Patrick had been lying to the City of Mississauga. The permit application was for a renovation of an existing home not a rebuild. Somewhere down the line the designer and Patrick had determined that the city would not allow certain setbacks if the existing structure was removed completely. They lied in their application. Now the demolition would require that some existing walls be kept. Now the demolition would need to be done carefully to preserve the walls or the city could cause problems. The prices quoted were high and Patrick asked me if I could do it on a time and materials (cost) basis. I agreed to get things going. It took six weeks to break the house down brick by brick using eight men at a time. There were over ten bins of garbage that was sorted to reduce dumping charges.

I was also able to get the building permit due to the compassion of the people at the city of Mississauga Building department and their knowledge of my work history. Patrick's father was so pleased that day, he took me out for lunch.

It is true that I suggested that Patrick get the roof from Rocket Lumber. Rocket Lumber was located in Mississauga and they had worked with ICF's in the past. They screwed up and Patrick blames me because I suggested them in the first place. The ambiguity of the cartoonists (designer) drawings managed to confuse them enough to cause Rocket Lumber to make some critical errors. In retrospect I now understand how these problems occurred as the dimensions were not consistant and Patrick ended up producing many sets of drawings right through the project.

If my memory is correct, there were over ten sets of drawing revisions after Brian Hudson completed his designs. When Rocket Lumber gave me their engineered drawings and said that they were signed off and accurate, they were given to Patrick Chin the Manager. The City of Mississauga Department of Buildings missed the drawings mistakes also. I guess we should have hired an engineer to check the engineers work. I am not an engineer. I was merely the person going out of my way to help Patrick get his house constructed. I never had plans to install the roof as it was not my scope of work on the project.

Whoever it was that Patrick had in mind to place the slabs of concrete, install the floors, and roof, had lost interest in this. Now approaching winter, Patrick once again asked me to find someone. At this point I should have said no because everyone was busy and the only people I could find were not of my favour and would require babysitting. I was also busy and was not able to participate in the roof installation. For purposes of workmans compensation and insurance, I agreed to act as the paymaster for Patrick however.

I did have a senior ICF installer onsite that did not get along with Patrick and the end result was a wall that was poorly positioned.

Patrick lost his job as well as his girlfriend during this period of time and was consistantly acting irrational on site and counterproductive during the construction process. Patrick fails to mention that he was the supervisor during the installtion of the roof that caused so much grief.

I allowed Patrick to have access to my tools and every resource I could offer at the time during this difficult situation. There was no profit earned on this job and in the end I was not paid an outstanding balance.

Patrick did get a chance to talk to some of my customers and knew that I was capable and did good work. I adjusted my weekly schedules, my profit schedule and my vacation schedules to try to accomodate him. There was no opportunity to satisfy Patrick on this project as it was doomed from the start. Patrick's parents were a contributing factor as they constantly applied more stress on Patrick.

I am not a designer, carpenter or engineer and would never pretend to be one but construction is not complicated when you allow people to perform the work properly using the right instruments such as accurate drawings and an action plan.

I hold two degrees, sit on the board of two successful companies and have been managing men for twenty five years. Patrick is the first and last job where I will work with an owner who says they will manage the job despite the fact that they are not in construction. If you do not know the depth of the water, don't dive in! Patrick despite his self proclaimed brilliance knew very little about construction and the frustration he caused for all who went to that site was beyond reproach. Patrick is intelligent and articulate but was going through a rough patch in his personal life.

The C---'s are nice people who worked hard and deserved less problems during the process of building their retirement home, They should have allowed a design build firm to take on the project and manage it correctly, hiring and overseeing the various trades that would be required to construct. I never made a committment to build their home. I helped where I could with my advice and contacts, most of whom did good work. I did not pour the floor that Patrick claims was cracked but somehow I am responsible. In reality, the floor would not have cracked if it hadn't heaved from frost but Patrick who proclaimed to understand all would not turn on the infloor heating system.

Getting people to work at the site was like pulling teeth without painkillers.

The lesson to be learned here is don't go to the mechanic to fix your teeth. To the best of my knowledge, Patrick is an aeronautical engineer not a construction project manager. Saving pennies getting unqualified designers who want to be architects does not help either.

Patrick and I both made mistakes during this project! I am old enough to know that mature adults admit to their mistakes. Blaming others for your own foolishness and emotional problems while you point your fingers and slander them is neither a sign of maturity or ethics.

If I had no morals or honour I would have told Patrick to get lost as soon as he started asking me to solve all of the problems he had before we started. As in all situations, most people try to help and move forward in trying times, listening to Patrick crying about his personal life, mommy and daddy relationships and losing his job was just another unwanted aspect of the jobsite.

I no longer work for OWNER/PROJECT MANAGERS as I do not have the Psychiatric skills to do so. I decided to work with professionals only as they do not bring their issue clouding emotions to the site.

This has been a great year and I will build several projects in Canada as well as Internationally, As always I will endeavour to help where I can while I perform my scope of the work which is ICF walls.

Patrick, for a project the size of yours, I would have asked for references.

Show me your last project. What other homes have you completed from scratch? Do you have any pictures from your previous work? Give me some name and addresses. I want to go look at what you did prior to this.

By saying those 5 little sentences above, and taking a day or two to drive out to his prior projects and discuss his work with the owners, you would have saved yourself countless hours of aggravation, as well as thousands of dollars.

Patrick, if you needed brain surgery, would you let me take a power drill to your skull? Of course not. Kelly probably had good intentions and big dreams. Unfortunately, he needs to go to school to learn how home building works.

The lesson here is, anytime you need someone to work for you, be sure that the person is capable and experienced. Lots of people have big dreams and big hopes, along with big talk.