Complaint Review: Joel And Kathy Davidson

I know from my own personal experience that the naysayers are just plain wrong about Joel. I have never spoken with Kathy, but my experience with Joel has been everything BUT abusive. Yes, he and the helpers on the calls have been blunt and honest with me about my behavior and then guided me on how to correct it. I was at a point in my marriage where my wife wanted nothing to do with me. She was having affairs and generally not in control of herself. It was not until I realized, before even speaking with Joel, that MY behavior toward my wife is what led her into the insanity she was experiencing. I have been with this ministry since 9/4/12 and, by following the advice of Joel and the other people involved in the ministry, I have seen a huge turn around in my relationship with my wife. My wife has received much healing and has fully apologized for the adultery(though not necessary to me). She has turned her heart back to me and, contrary to what others might say, I feel more like a man than I ever have. I feel like I have more of a "say so" in how my marriage operates because I have begun to die to myself for my wife, just as Christ died for us all. Christ never FORCED us to respond to His love, but we do because He went first. I have seen the exact same response from my wife. 

Yes, Joel has asked me to invest money in his ministry in exchange for the help I have received and I am happy to do so. What kind of person expects things for free. If you go to church and receive counsel from your minister, are you not compelled by you own conscience to give back what you can to his church? I researched different types of counselling before engaging with Joel and Kathy and found that most charge at least $100 per HOUR (I have health insurance, but they will not pay for Christian counseling because of out-of-network restrictions). Joel and Kathy only charge to counsel men who have lost their wives and are trying to win their hearts back the $100 per MONTH to help them. In exchange for that payment the ministry devotes a minimum of three calls per week that last on average about three hours each, sometimes a lot longer. I have also had access to Joel's personal cell phone and home phone pretty much any time I need to call. Yes, the books, DVDs, and weekend intensives cost money, but it costs money to produce those things and why should people not be compensated for their time and effort, especially if the effort results in miracles from God? Joel and Kathy do not charge for the six weekly couples group counseling calls. Joel and Kathy do give a lot of themselves to others for free. I see the money I have paid to Joel and Kathy as an investment in my walk with God and in my marriage and the reward is worth more than any amount of money.

Basically, the point behind the ministry, as I have been able to gather in this short time with them, is to be Christlike as a man. Christ initiated love by laying His life down for the world(His bride). This is all Joel and Kathy ask us men to do for our brides. It is an extremely painful process and I felt treated unfairly many times along the way, but I have realized that Christ was treated unfairly as well, but did not stop giving Himself in love. Look how we, as the church, are moved to love Him in response. That is God's plan for marriage. Christ (the husband) goes first and the church (His bride) responds in kind. This ministry teaches men how to be like Christ. I honestly feel that the reason the original poster of this thread failed to restore his marriage is because he could not get past his own needs and the desire to provide them under his own strength. It requires faith to rest in the knowledge that God WILL provide us what we need to sustain ourselves. 

Btw, as I write this I am exchanging sweet loving texts with my wife, which she initiated. You see, I have been going first for over a month and now she is initiating a responsive love to me. 

My email to joel was in response to a mass marketing email I received stating how they worry less now that they have lots of life insurance on their kids and if they had it on their daughter they wont be upside down on their house. What kind of person talks about not being upside down on their house due to the loose of their child?

I am in community with almost 100 people who have left the joel and kathy cult due to the manipulation they use to get people to give them money. They counsel people on marriage via the phone and charge people through a church that they set up, a non-denominational church that has no oversight or accountability except to themselves. None of the people on the phone giving advice are trained counselors, the only training they have is from joel and they cannot deviate from his training.

As for the call when they were looking at Christmas lights, that was one of the mens group counseling calls that I paid for. This is the type of thing that joel does very well, manipulating the truth, which I caught on to and called him on which is why I was banned from his cult.

He claims (remember: people trying to get into your pockets make lots of claims), thousands of people were helped by his ministry, yet I personally know dozens of people who left in more pain then when they started with him all through the abusive way joel spoke to them and instructing the women that to have a good marriage they have to reward their husband with sex so their husbands would want to change.   

When I asked him how many men signed up and paid him $100 a month to talk on the phone and out of those how many actually had their marriages restored he could not answer me. When I asked why those men who had their marriages restored were not on the phone boasting about their life change and encouraging the other men who wanted restoration all he could say is, "they're busy with life".

If I was in the business of helping people with their marriage I'd know my stats, how many people came to me for help and how many I successfully helped, unless of course I was a failure or con man. If I had my marriage restored I certainly would have been there to encourage struggling men and sharing about my success.

While it is true that I do not know the pain of losing a child, a Christ-like man certainly doesn't use the type of language he did in his response to me and certainly doesn't tell people to go to hell. Think about it, what minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ would tell someone to go to hell? Is that the kind of pastor you want to sit under? Is that the man you want to minister to you if youre struggling in your marriage? Is that the ministry you would want to support?

He claims I tried to con my ex-wife. My ex-wife told me she felt manipulated by me when I was only doing what joel was telling me to do. He calls me a con man; it is said, It takes one to know one, so if he calls me a con man what does that make him? Out of his own mouth he condemns himself.
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In the email I received from him about how he has less stress because of life insurance he wrote:

That $10 per month of life insurance on Shekinah would have given us a quarter million dollars when she went to heaven and we would not be upside down on our house today.
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Yet, if you look above at his angry response to me which I copied and pasted here, he wrote, We received a measely $250,000. So who is lying here? You judge for yourself.

Yes, some people, when they are unhappy with a service they pay for that turns out to be a lie voice their opinion, as I have and have others before me.

And if there's one thing I've learned about being a Christ-like man it's this - I cannot judge a man's heart and/or his relationship with God. joel and kathy sit on their own throne and if someone does not do things as they say they tell them they are not Christlike. We will all stand before God and give an account.   

This man, "Lots of work to do" wrote this to us in an email:  You worry less and live more because you

received a settlement suit for malpractice when Shekania died and you also live

off the pain and suffering of good people through manipulation and control. You

should be ashamed of yourselves.

We do not care about anything this man has ever said about or to us until he touched our daughter. Mess with me. Fine. Mess with my child and that is a different story. Yes, Lots of work to do, you are a con artist. You came to our ministry and claimed that you wanted to become a legitimate Christian man. You said that you wanted to change enough for your wife to come back to you. You called me in desperation on a night when I was with my family, seeing Christmas decorations, and I took time out for you, to help you in your supposed pain and desperation to learn how to successfully win your wife's heart back. You tried desperately to con your wife into getting back with you after she divorce you.

Your wife never came back to you and the reason is painfully obvious in the unprovoked, unGodly, demonic attack that you chose to launch when touching the loss of our daughter a few years ago.

No folks, we do NOT write letters like the one that I sent off to this charade of a "Christian" man - but yes, touch our daughter and that person will be informed, like this man was, that he went too far.

This man wrote a letter, thanking me for replying, so that he could now "prove" that we write mean letters to people.  Folks.. if you lost a daughter at 13 years old, and a man attacked you like this.. well, you have no idea unless you have lost a child. This man has been out of our life for over a year - and he suddenly attacks our daughter..  just so he can get an angry email back to attack us with publicly? Can anyone say on his behalf,  "they're coming to take me away, ha ha, hee hee..."

I do apologise that anyone has had to be exposed to the ridiculous dribble in this place called "rip-off report".  And by the way, if anyone wants to have stuff removed from rip-off report, that can happen, for a sizeable fee. Folks, don't be sucked in by a handful of complainers on the internet about ANY product or service.  We have seen THOUSANDS of healed marriages in over 8 years of full time marriage ministry.  Have some men failed to change and failed to become good husbands? Absolutely. Have some of those men turned on the very ones who attempted to help them? Absolutely. Have there been a few women who have failed to be willing to let the Lord heal their marriages? Absolutely. Have there been a few of them who have turned on those who attempted to help them? Absolutely. Did people turn on Jesus? Absolutely. Did people turn on Paul? Absolutely. At one point, Paul said "all of Asia has turned away from me." 

Out of thousands of couples who have found help in their time of need, yes, there are a few, very vocal failures who have nothing better to do with their lives than to try and discourage hurting people to get help. I guess that misery loves company..

What was written above is true, they are in the business of selling books. They are also in the business, which they market through their so-called "marriage ministry" website, other mulit-level marketing products such as pre-paid legal.

They charge people who are hurting, and in emotional and spiritual pain, monthly membership fees to call in to group phone calls and those people end up getting abused even further by people who are not trained to handle their problems.

Once you break free of their minipulation and control, cult-like behavior, and challenge them on something they said or did, they send you emails as such:
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You are a complete and total idiot THANK GOD that your wife did not turn around. You are a con artist.  How dare you harass us about Shekinah. We received a measley $250,000 for the wrongful death of our child through the mistake of a doctor. I don't have to say gth.. because I cannot imagine that you are going anywhere else but there. That is someone else's decision to make. You are the PERFECT example of a man who PROCLAIMED change and was lying the whole time. Your wife had enough wisdom to see through your crap. Why don't YOU go and have a doctor kill one of your children and see how that $250,000 feels. You idiot. Don't ever, ever, ever contact us again.
 
Joel and Kathy Davisson
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That is from a man who calls himself a minister of the gospel and runs a marriage ministry. By the way, it took me a few minutes to figure out 'gth' means go to hell.

From my experience, you should run from these people unless these are the types of people you want in your pockets.

We could go to many websites with information about their approach to solving our problems and make an assumption that they have a motive get our money and give us nothing in return. Personally, I have read their testimony, of a turn around in their marriage, written down in their books.

At that time, I needed this encouragement.  I then went to the seminar with my spouse because I knew what the Davisson's could explain, based on what I read in their books.  

To impact many people with our message we can relate it through mass media but it has a monetary cost.  I paid less than thirty dollars for the books to begin the process of healing the breach in our marriage. Would we not be even more suspicious if the materials were free ?

Yes, we are here, offering help to couples in severe crisis.  Couples are being helped every day, every week, every month.

Our son has come through his "rough patch" and is doing wonderful now. His rough patch was to get on top of Petsmart which resulted in a warning from the police about trespassing - and to
make a mistake with a young lady that did NOT include premarital sex.

Nonetheless, it was innapropriate. Yes - our 17 year old honor school student was innapropriate with a girlfriend.  He has paid a price for that.

We share our life - our real life - to help people.  Sad that some would use that in a way to
attack.  However, we will continue to be transparent. Our transparency helps many.

If you are needing help in your marriage, then visit us at www.GodSaveMyMarriage.com  God
will meet you there!

If you are just looking to criticize, you might find something here to criticize - maybe not - but if you do, then congratulations!  As far as we know, Jesus was the only perfect person..  and even he was criticized.  But just the fact that someone can find something to criticize proves for sure that the Bible is correct - that Jesus is the only perfect one!  

Having said that - we do seek to "be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect" - and we do
live our lives in a way every day that enables us to say "follow us as we follow Christ" in
relation to marriage.   That we have figured out! Everything else is still a journey for us!

Joel,

I love you and Kathy and I love  your ministry and what God has revealed to you both to share with the body of Christ, your brothers and sisters.  That being said, I beg you to stop with your defensive, sarcastic behavior.  We are told to have no appearance of evil and are called to be humble.  Though you no longer exhibit your abusive, arrested development behavior toward your wife, you are directing it toward your brothers and sisters in Christ.  This is not a one time occurance.  It has  been directed at myself and my husband in the past.  My request to you is to realize that under no circumstances is self righteousness and sarcasm Christlike.  Furthermore, your excuse that this was not a true believer should all the more give  you motivation to hold your tongue.  Our ultimate goal for this lost soul should be to bring him to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

If you and Kathy are being attacked by reports of being money seeking, pray about your motives to the one who knows the motives of our hearts.  If your motives are pure, no respose to this man's allegations even need be mentioned.  God is your defender and the evidence is the many marriages that have been saved.  Thank you and Kathy for your transparency and  countless hours you put into other's lives.

To the one who posted this original report....  It takes money to live in this world.  God gave you a talent which you in turn probably use daily in order to put a roof over your head and food on your table.  It's called work.  If you happen to enjoy the talent that God has given you, so much the better!  You are blessed!  In the same way, God has given Joel and Kathy a talent and it is called "sharing how God has changed their lives".  May no one be confused into thinking that what they do is not work.  They put countless hours into their ministry.  How many ministries actually give out their home phone number?  You can find them on mentoring phone  calls several nights a week working individually with people like  you and me.  They have  marriage seminars and marriage intensives that they personally run.  Just because their talent is different from mine or yours does not mean it isn't work. 

Hope this Helps!
andthefirstoftheseislove

to the user that was verbally attacked online. their untruthful "teachings" dont stop with their buisness. they tried to sell my family these books, my father was going to purchase them but when doing some research on them and their "buisness" he found that it is nothing but scam scam scam! also we have learned that their son has been involved with some unlawful and un godly things. joel and kathy should be spending more time at home with their son and duaghter, and less time trying to fix their own family. the child is going to end up in jail on the path he is heading!! he was charged with trespassing and took advantage of a girl very recently. when i heard this i was shocked! how can they fix your marriage if they cannot even keep their OWN household under control.

Hello. I have had personal experience communicating via email with Joel and can attest to the reports validity. While Joel and Kathy do proclaim some form of Christianity, their "ministry" is not as much about helping marriages as it is tainting the male species and selling their books.

I signed up for their newsletter, as I was curious about their books. My husband and I enjoy reading marriage help books, even though we have a fantastic marriage. Their website was vague at the time, and I couldn't find much info about the books that would convince me they were worth buying, so I signed up for their newsletter. When it finally came, I realized I wanted nothing to do with their supposed ministry.

Both Joel and Kathy make it abundantly clear that they believe women to be the morally superior species. Joel flat out stated to me that "90% of all marital problems are because of an immature, selfish husband. Out of the 10% left over where the problem is currently the wife, 9% of those marriages are because the husband was immature and selfish first." So, 99% of all marital issues are because of the man, and only 1% of marital issues are because the wife is, and always was, the problem.

I asked Joel, "Where in the Bible does it say that one sex is prone to more sin than the other?" but I got no response. Kathy Davisson teaches wives not to respond nicely when their husbands fail:

""If my husband does not treat me good, then I don't treat him good. A man has to reap what he sows. If my husband treats me bad and I treat him good in return, that messes him up. If he treats me good, then I am warm and loving toward him. If he treats me bad, he gets that thrown right back at him."" -Kathy Davisson

I asked Joel about this as well, asking about the verse that commands us to do unto others as we would have them do to us. He never responded to that question either.

In fact, Joel was so enraged by my study of his ministry, that he joined a forum I was apart of specifically to attack me, and encourage people to sell his books. His first few posts were nothing but sales pitches. I tried to ask him for proof on the many statistics he offered about men being the ultimate problem in marriage, but he merely attacked me and ignored my inquiries. He got so verbally abusive, he was banned from the forum and his posts, all of them, were deleted.

We are sorry that you felt that we were being sarcastic to a sincere believer who filed the original report above.

We are familiar with who the person is. They are not a sincere believer. They were a person who simply decided to harass our ministry by creating a very ridiculous "complaint" to log on the "rip-off" report in an effort to discredit us.  Our reply was simply to point out that the person was being "facetious" in a way to harrass and defame - and they were using a basis for their arguement that is laughable at best.

Had it been written by a sincere individual, such as yourself, we would not have replied the way that we did.

Sadly - the rip off report does not function as an organization that does research on "complaints" or does any type of "screening" their posts.  Therefore, people like the originator of the letter above have open game to post anything that they want, regardless of how baseless their assertions.

As you can see from your own experience, our book "contains" the seed of miracles. If you and your husband will quickly engage with our nationwide group marriage mentoring calls, online forum at www.joelandkathy.com/boards/ - and hopefully we will meet you two at a weekend marriage intensive!

My X-husband abused me and terrorized me for 8 years.  He reluctantly read this book at the suggestion of one of his friends.  He actually apologized to me!  I do not know whether he has changed or if it's a scam, but he claims he threw the book across the room several times wanting to believe it was all my fault for any marriage problem.  He called at 3AM to tell me he had been an a** and said he was sorry for acting like an 18 month old baby.

Hi friend,

You reported that you signed up for our materials and have visited our website and forum. That would suggest that you have marriage problems.

That has to be a safe assumption. Why would you sign up for a marriage course or go to a marriage forum if you have a great marriage?  You would not. So I am going to address you from the viewpoint that your marriage is in need of help.

You can do one of two things regarding your marital difficulties.

One idea is that you can keep your current opinions - the opinions that have been the "umpire" over your current marriage. This will assure you more of the same. After all, insanity is "doing things the same way and expecting different results this time!"

The second idea would be for you to learn from someone like us.

At this point in your life, based on your comments, it is obvious that you have decided to continue on in your current belief systems concerning marriage.

Let us know how that works out.

If it appears that your way gets the same results that you have gotten up to this point in your life - and if you would like to learn something new, we are here for you!

This is not a rebuttal to the original posting, but some observations based upon watching the various 'free' materials that I have been inundated with after signing up to preview Joel and Kathy Davisons marriage wonder machine.

1. I find it out of Christian character that Joels response to this fellows criticism about selling books is so sarcastic and condemning. It could have been more effective to merely state the fact that one can't minister for free unless one is financially independent, and that in order to get their ideas across, one must read more than a blog, which means an investment in personal time and a book, and labor and printing costs money.

2. After watching numerous videos of Joel and Kathy, I have become immune to their proposals that vilify men as the virus in marriages. That IS the common theme. I am reasonably sure that their marriage course WILL work wonders for any marriage, assuming that the male wants to roll over and play dead....and I'm sorry, but that's what I'm seeing. I've reviewed their website and their forum and they make it clear that there is no room for rebuttal from any other perspective than their own. I am glad that their marriage is so blissful, but my gut tells me that their pretentious and ostentatious displays of affection are done for the purpose of showmanship, and I'm seeing nothing that tells me that there are always 2 sides to every story beyond the idea that if men would just get smart then their women would be good to them. That is nothing more than 'man-bashing'. Incidentally, their forum has no arena for men who have bad wives: I suppose that is so because in their minds, women aren't the ones with problems.

3. Biblically, I don't find as much support for their cause as they would like us to think. I find however, numerous verses about the male/female role as one that is dominant/submissive, which idea is never compromised or nullified from Genesis to Revelations. Joel and Kathy present a different viewpoint of the Biblical roles of male and female and have a problem with the 'traditional' viewpoint and I understand that, but the 'Biblical' or 'traditional' problem is really about how that idea has been perversely implemented in peoples lives individually. The solution is not about bringing another lopsided notion to the table, but in recognizing ones' proper role in Gods economy and accepting that without becoming a tyrant or a doormat. 

4. The Christian way of life is one of personal crucifixion to the self-life, and selfishness IS the root cause of all problems, which neither men nor women are immune to. It takes 2 to tango. The principles of human relationship are the same for both sexes, each one needs love, acceptance, respect etc, and believe it or not Joel and Kathy, A WOMAN CAN BE the major problem creator. Maybe I can phrase it this way in juxtaposition to their theory: IF a woman only shows a modicum of respect for her man, THEN her man would show her the love that she needs. It works 2 ways, but surprisingly in Joel and Kathys economy, the male is responsible for all of the bad stuff and only if HE changes will things straighten out. Ironically, that makes the male the bigger person of the two doesn't it? LOL 

Maybe I'll try their program out after all and silently revel in my superiority. LOLOLOL

Greetings our friend,

Yes, we want people to buy our books. The first book, "The Man of Her Dreams/The Woman of His!" is so "special" that it creates miracles in marriages all over the world - everywhere that it is read.

The book is $15 plus $3 shipping. Wow. What a miracle it is.

When we felt that God wanted us to write this first book, we had no idea what would happen. Being transparent that Joel was a Pastor, was abusive to Kathy and ended up committing adultery was scary, to say the least.

We we involved in ministry already - and the adultery that had happened 13 years before was becoming a distant memory. The abuse that had ended 10 years before was becoming a distant memory.

Suddenly, we felt like God said, "Write a book and tell about the abuse, the adultery and tell what I taught you that changed your marriage from misery to an outrageously happy marriage!"

Egads. It was either the end of our "ministry" - or the beginning of a brand new one.

Well, the rest is history. Over 10,000 copies have been purchased and thousands of couples have had their lives changed.

At first, it seemed like we were not even personally necessary!

Everyone who read that first book got an instantaneous miracle in their marriage.

Then, after that initial "YES!!" from the Lord, of overnight miracles, some of the couples seemed to need more help.

So, since 2004, we have developed, in response to the need: A FREE 24/7 marriage mentoring forum online. That is at www.JoelandKathy.com/boards/ It is manned by ourselves and couples whom have received miracles in their own marriages through the book or the book and the other resources we have developed.

We also offer FOUR weekly NATIONWIDE MARRIAGE MENTORING phone calls! The information is on our Itinerary page at www.GodSaveMyMarriage.com The calls are "basically" free. (Just order any product or give any gift, of any size, in a 30 day period and you can access all four calls per week for the full month. Wow.

These calls are also manned by ourselves, and other couples whom we have helped. They are now able to help others! These are not "normal" couples - these are couples who had SEVERE marriage troubles: porn, abuse, adultery and more - and they now enjoy HEALED and HAPPY marriages! Wow!

In 2006, we wrote a second book. "Livin' it and Lovin' it!" We think it is even better than the first one!

That book is $17.

The first book has 256 pages

The second book has 376 pages.

MANY MEN who have NEVER read another book have READ these and CHANGED!

They are written with MEN in mind.

Large letters.

Lots of white space.

We also offer Weekend Marriage Intensives for a maximum of seven couples.

These cost $595, plus travel, plus hotel.

So, yes - if we can convince you to buy a $15 book, or a $15 book and a $17 book, for a total of less than $40 when you add in the shipping cost of $6 for priority mail - and if you can get a TOTAL miracle in your marriage, then we want to SELL, SELL, SELL, SELL, SELL!

If 1 million copies would be sold in the next few years, the divorce rate in the church would go from 50% to much, much lower.

The books carry such a miracle in them.

One comment that you made though, our friend, confuses me.

I went to the Christian bookstore today. Family Christian Books. They have locations all across the country.

Every book in the store was written by Christians, for Christians. Every book was written by someone who has a ministry.

I picked out ten books that were really, really good looking books.

I was so happy.

I went up to the register and struck up a conversation.

I thanked the manager for letting me have the books.

He was VERY confused.

After a few awkward moments, it became painfully obvious that the books were being SOLD, not given away.

OH MY GOD! HELP US! ALL OF THE MINISTRIES who wrote these books were SELLING BOOKS!

God, your people are "rip offs!" They are actually SELLING their books!

This lovely person who wrote this "rip off" report, claims that I was supposed to be GIVEN all of those books for free at the Christian book store.

WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? WHY CAN'T WE GET THESE BOOKS FOR FREE!!!!

ARGGHHHH!!!!! THE HORROR!!!!! ALL OF THOSE AUTHORS are RIP-OFFS!

Thank you, our new friend, for exposing those frauds. Every last one of them. From every possible doctrine, persuasion and denomination. They are all crooks!

Wow. You are like the ONLY TRUE CHRISTIAN, in the ENTIRE world. I cannot find ANYONE else who thinks that all of the Christian book stores are RIP-OFFS for selling books. You are such a saint.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, for ALL of our benefit, TELL US NOW, WHERE can we get all of those books for free? We will fly there today! Where is that "free" books bookstore?

Oh. The LIBRARY! I got it! Thank you.

But wait. They are rip-offs too. They actually expect me to BRING THE BOOKS back after I read them.

Oh well. I am defeated. Everyone who prints or authors a book are rip-offs.

You are truly amazing. The only Godly person on planet earth.

I hope that your message gets out there. FREE BOOKS for everyone! Where is that store again?

Oh, you know somoene on the internet who gives books away free?

Yes, I am sure they are out there somewhere... HEY, WAIT A MINUTE!

WE GIVE 120 pages of our first book away for TOTALLY FREE!

WOW! HEY! That must make us the only truly "correct" ministry in the world, in your estimation.

Yes, it is true. Just go to www.GodSaveMyMarriage.com and you can get half of our first book for FREE. Wow. FREE.

Yes, we have given away about 50,000 free PDF copies of "half" of our book over the last few years.

Thank you for spreading the word!