Complaint Review: Misty J Bell - Harrogate Hydroponics - Mark J Bell

Thank you Dean,

I look forward to your confirmation on receipt of the arranged bank transfer funds. I will of course reciprocate and post details on this report to conclude this matter.

Thanks to those who have been following this report. There have been some good questions asked and I want to address a few of them right now.
First let me just do a recap of how this transaction started and has progressed to this point.

In February 2004, I contacted Harrogate Hydroponics through the question to seller link via e-bays auction site. The response I received was from Harrogatehydro@AOL.com. The person responding went by the name of Mark. We e-mailed back and forth about a large order to be shipped via the postal system, Surface Parcel Post. Once a price was agreed upon, I made arraignments for my friend Alex, to wire 1,184.95 GBP ($2,290.51 USD) to their bank account with the name of M. J. Bell. All along, there was no disclosure or mention that this was a different person than Mark, so I assumed that it was the same person I was dealing with. In fact, there was never a moment that I received any indication that this person Mark, was an employee or anything other than an owner operator.

Over the next few months we wrote back and forth to make sure things were progressing as planned. Never at any point did I receive e-mail from another person at Harrogate, it was always from Mark. After the 8 week point we began to voice our concern. I was assured that it would be best to wait longer to see if it would show up, so I agreed to wait further. I waited 10 weeks, 12 weeks and become very concerned over this transaction.

Around this time, Alex became more involved and started to pressure Mark for some form or action. Over the next few weeks Mark claimed to have done an inquiry requesting a trace of our shipment and concluded that Customs was holding our order because it was leaking liquid. He also stated that he filed a loss claim and that he would be collecting on it some time soon. Around this time, he offered to transfer a refund to our account but at that time, I was still interested in receiving these goods from the remaining stock he was holding for our next order.

I started to negociate a second shipment. This time I was willing to pay the additional shipping fee's for fast airmail service that included on-line tracking. After receiving Mark's additional shipping quote we sent the additional funds via PayPal to cover the difference of cost between the original surface shipment and the additional airmail fee. After a few days of asking for the tracking number we received a paypal refund for only the additional funds for air mail and a note stating that there was no more product available to ship. At this point he said all he could do was send a refund.

I submitted the bank transfer account information and from that point on, never received another e-mail or a refund.

Question: Wouldn't you think that a business that had changed it's e-mail address would use some form of mail forwarding? Or at least continue to keep the old address active for several months?

Now I realized that this deal had gone bad and started to search the web for more info on Harrogate hydroponics. Until that day, I was only able to find their e-bay store and no official site or contact information but then, I found their brand new site. It was under construction and was far from complete. We noticed the new e-mail address's and decided to write to enquiries@harrogatehydroponics.co.uk under an alias to see who would respond. Guess who, no one but the same Mark fellow.

We then searched through the site for contact information. Now this was very disturbing to see there was little contact information available. No phone numbers, no street address or mailing information, no fax number. I don't know about you but I'd feel very uncomfortable doing business with anyone that does not have a contact phone number, fax number or an address listed clearly on their site. They have bank transfer information and e-mail address's but no phone number or mailing address?

The invoice I originally received back in February had a phone number and we called it many times only to get a message stating the phone was in use and to leave a message. I never got a live person, not even once.

OK, now... lets take a look at this. NO usable phone number, NO response to the original e-mail address, NO confirmed mailing address and NO additional contact information on their new web site. Does this have slippery & avoidant feel to it or what?

You can guess that the next step was to take action against them. Harrogate Hydroponics has our money, was not responding to our e-mail and not available by phone. Writing to all the different e-mail address's and having to explain it to new people (or the same pretending to be different) as to what had transpired this past six months would only have allowed the process to continue. I decided that action needed to be taken right quick. Alex & I formulated a plan to expose them and set the wheels in motion. During a fit of frustration, I filed this rip off report and the following Monday the 26th we sent details as to what was to come if our refund was not processed in the next 7 days. This notice was e-mailed to all the e-mail address's listed at their web site.

Starting July 27, 04, we began writing back and forth with Misty and she stated on several occasions that a complete refund would come shortly.

I was originally going to accept paypal payments but learned today that Harrogate could claim the funds back simply because of an ineligibility clause in PayPal's seller protection policy. In other words they could claim the money was transferred fraudulently and collect it back through a charge back process months after if they were so inclined. PayPal is no longer an option.

We have now requested a bank transfer, just like the payment Alex originally sent them. I would like to get this whole mess behind me and the sooner the better. Upset? Frustrated? Yes!

Misty has been polite and in contact and I hope this is not more of what we have experienced while dealing with Mark these past 6 months.

I have offered to extend the due date a few days if absolutely needed but for now we are still on schedule to receive a full $2,290.51 Refund by Tuesday Aug 3rd, 2004.

I hope to post a favorable update as soon as I receive the refund. Or an update of notice that we have launched phase II of the fraud exposure campaign against Harrogate Hydroponics.

Misty, I mean no disrespect by posting these details. People have questions and concerns and it is necessary to paint a more lucid picture of what has lead me to post this report. We have received many kind words while waiting these past 6 months. What is needed next is ACTION!

Show everyone who is watching or may someday read this report that your business is honest and forthright. I'm sure your customers would find it useful to have access to business contact information on your web site. Full location address and phone numbers where live people answer the phone. Doing so would certainly add an element of customer security as well as display Harrogate Hydroponics has nothing but the best intentions with honest, open, easy to access sales people. You can bet I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I look forward to closing this deal with a full refund once and for all.

Thank you,

Misty,
Good Job. I'm glad to see that someone out there is not afraid to stand up and take responsibility when there is a legitimate problem or mistake. That's the way to run an ETHICAL business, people will see that you took responsibility and will be a lot less leary of doing business with you. We need businesses we can count on that way, there is too few of them I'm afraid, everyone wants to shift responsibility and nothing gets done. But beware also Misty, some people might see this and think they can scam YOU. But as long as you keep good records that should not be a problem.
Dean & Alex I am glad everything is settled for you also. My suggestion about doing business with someone is this, always make sure you have a phone number to contact the company you are doing business with. I made that mistake about 2 days ago, when I ordered a book online, now I can't find any phone #, so I have no way to contact the business about the order I placed. Needless to say I am a little worried. (They have my check card info) I have emailed them, but not received a message back yet. But that was just yesterday so I have to give them some time. GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL!

Hi Misty,
I did do a look at your website before posting my comments above... and that is what helped me "feel" that there might be something that was going on which might have caused miscommunications between the two parties. I don't know what it was... but it is clear to me that you cleared it up.

I know that it can be incredibly difficult to do your best and to have someone come on the internet and seem to tear it all apart with one statement.

Also, I know from the customer's perspective, it takes a level of frustration and powerlessness to come here and write a complaint.

From your responses, which have been very sweet and compassionate, it is obvious that you do care and wish to be proactive in your efforts. BRAVO!

We all know that things happen... that is life. Your actions seem to be speaking for themselves and I hope you can continue reaping the benefits of those actions.

I do regret my remark in regard to slanderous remarks. I feel that I should reiterate this. I hope all concerned and those interested can excuse my comment.

Otherwise I hope I have acted accordingly. I also appreciate Dean's update on proceedings.

Thank you for caring!

I sincerely appreciate all your input regarding this complaint.

The message which is strongly conveyed in both of your most recent postings is that I should not discredit any client or party interested in conducting legitimate business with our company. I accept and understand this. Since I have been in touch with Dean and Alex (in answer to Darren's question, yes their communication was co-signed by both concerned) we have established the origin of this problem.

Once their refund has been processed (of which they will be in receipt of on 03rd August 04) Alex & Dean have indicated that they will send a follow up posting and support me in view of the background on this transaction.

Darren has presented some very clear and valid points and I think it is of benefit for me to clarify these questions.

I will start with the issue of customer service. I am confident that on every occasion we have treated all our customers with the respect they deserve, executing friendly and personalised communications (we are quite old fashioned on our approach to personal contact). I realise it is easy for any business to make bold statements such as this but other than this isolated incident I have only positive feedback from our customers to endorse my beliefs in our service.

I am also in agreement that the complaint and my response was filed with a degree of frustration. I now understand why the posting was aggressive but still maintain that much of the information contained is incorrect. We have however established that both Dean & Alex have a genuine claim to this refund and I'm happy to say it is underway.

I apologise for my response to Dean & Alex. I was not furnished with any details of this transaction and their first words on this website seemed unfounded. Both Dean & Alex have been dealing with a/an (ex) member of my staff under an e-mail alias. It is unfortunate that they had not contacted me through my website or eBay using the correct contact details sooner, however, I naturally convey no blame to this effect and simply mention this because a more pleasant resolve could have been sought sooner. I have been told they will validate my claim when a satisfactory conclusion has been met.

I accept full responsibility for the actions of a representative of my company (past or present) and have therefore agreed without delay or prejudice to offer a full refund (including transaction costs).

We are a small business and my partner and I consider ourselves to be in very good control of every transaction we process. Under normal circumstances I would have recognised and delt with any customer complaint in a fast and friendly manner. I am now thankful that both Dean & Alex contacted me through the correct channels before the matter escalated further.

UPDATE:
For those who are watching this report I want to state we have been in contact with the owner of Harrogate hydroponics (Misty Bell) and that our claims that Mark and Misty were actually the same person may not prove to be true.

The e-mail address for Harrogate hydroponics has been changed and there are now several address's including one direct to the owner, Misty.

So far we have sent many documents and e-mail direct to her and are pleased with the way she has handled this matter so far.

It appears that this Mark fellow might have acted on his own to steal our money. Misty is in the process of confronting her ex-employee Mark about our loss and has offered her assurance that we will be refunded one way or another.

Although we are jaded from this long drawn out transaction, things like promising at this time. July 28th, 2004

We hope to receive our refund soon and to post a positive update once our refund is complete.

Thanks,

Misty,
First, let's get Bill's comment out of the way... yes... slander is spoken and libel is written. That is one of the common mistakes that people make. Regardless of what it is called the results are the same... and we can all assume that if the person does actually go to a lawyer then that will all be straightened out and is therefore irrevelant to the topic).

I too have corrected people about this... but not as my only comment, or as a way to abuse someone. (Actually, I probably wouldn't have posted but I saw Bill's very "valuable" and "constructive" input)

Now, Dean makes comments saying that your company has been contacted and that he was given information that was not accurate, you say that he has not contacted you except for one that you received the day you posted your response.

Can we assume that this was the e-mail saying that he posted to this website and you came on here, read it and then replied?

I don't see any mention of a person named Alex in Dean's post. Where did that name come from? Was Alex's name included in the (only) e-mail to you? Or, have you actually been dealing with these people and you know more than you are letting on?

Are you sure that this was the only correspondence they sent you? It would be strange to lose almost $2,300 and not contact the company a couple of times before posting here. It is possible, but not likely. Did you thoroughly check your e-mails and other correspondences?

Something being held up in customs because it is damaged or broken doesn't make sense either. As far as my experience goes, customs is concerned that the contents match the shipping invoice and that any duties and customs are paid... not the condition of the contents.

I have moved back and forth from the USA to a couple of different countries where I have had household's worth of furniture. Damage in shipping never enters into it... unless maybe they damaged the product while inspecting the package.

I know that it is impossible to prove the negative... if Dean did sent you e-mails and/or have phone calls with you it would be very helpful to know that. If he didn't, it would be impossible for you to prove he didn't. This being the case, then a very clear concise post by Dean would be helpful.

What I can say, is that the denial along with a threat to sue is a drastic and dramatic escalation of the situation. One complaint for a comany that says it has a 100% customer satisfaction record doesn't warrant a lawsuit threat right off the bat. This can be construed as being an emotional response rather than a good busines response.

Reputation is everything. Sometimes a company doesn't look at the long term and they see each complaint as either an extortion attempt or trying to get something for nothing. We all know that that does happen... but there are ways that a company can plead their case.

You seem to have enough information about the customer that you should also be able to answer to his complaint effectively.

1) If there was communication between the company and the customer what was the result?
2) Shipping information. What was shipped, when and how.
3) Was a trace placed on the shipped items? What results?
4) Does your company have and controls in place to ensure good customer service?

I am not saying that you are at fault. Dean (and all that post a complaint) needs to be very clear with specifics if this site is to reach its full potential as a way for customers and companies to air a disagreement rather than a place to vent frustration.

Thanks,

Misty,

I have never heard of you or this company. But it seems to me that all you have to do is right the wrong. Pay this person for the things they paid you for that they did not receive. As an outsider, never even hearing of this company until now, I would not get involved with it no matter how many people say it is a good company until you make right what is wrong.

You should not be sitting there with someones money, when they did not receive what you promised. Until you make good on it, and NOT with damaged items, then the complaint on you is accurate.

If it is a legitimate mistake, which does happen, then fix it! Don't call consumers liars, especially if they didn't receive what they paid for. That is just bad business.

All you have to do is get the customer the goods they ordered, or give them their money back. It is THAT simple!

Since contact was established yesterday and through friendly diplomatic discussions we have come to an agreement regarding our business together and the posting on this website.

Should things proceed accordingly we have agreed to resolve this very unfortunate matter.

A further posting is expected by my client as to their opinion on how the situation is settled.

As stipulated in the "Consumer Comments" section all parties concerned would appreciate "Solid & Productive" criticism, opinions and/or comments.

Thank you!

Hey there Misty,

I hope that my rebuttal finds you in good spirit and health.

Don't take your frustrations out on this website or it's creator. If a business has been wrongly accused of something, the owners would have absolutely no problem whatsoever, proving a report false.

You see that's the beauty of the internet. It promotes free speech. Sometimes I feel a little to much, however, if a person or company is conducting business the way they're supposed to, he, she, or it would find no amount of complaints a problem and would definitely be willing to acknowledge and resolve them in the public eye.

Fact of life! No if ands or buts about it! A year ago, I probably would have felt sorry for you, but with the enormous amount of scams and fraudulent businesses, that exists nowadays, businesses will someday have to start fighting it out amongst themselves.

To much scams and fraudulent businesses to sort through. Another thing, as Bill suggested, learn the difference between slander and libel. They're both defamation, but take two entirely different forms.

Not a huge difference as far as definition is concerned, but big enough to demonstrate, that you are one of those, who so freely throws accusations around. Understand? No better than the very person you're accusing of slander.

Also, not only is the word slander too commonly misused and abused today, slander is very difficult to near impossible to prove in court. Same goes for libel.

In order for someone to prove defamation, one has to prove that someone intentionally and maliciously ruined anothers reputation, by saying or writing false claims.

Sorry to say, the TRUTH is an absolute defense against slander and or libel. The majority of slander and libel accusations are just meaningless threats, in attempt to intimidate complainants and scam victims to keep quiet. Can you say frivilous?

If a company is not willing and or able to prove reports against it to the contrary, in the public eye, but are willing to settle disputes in a courtroom, the company is obviously just interested in extorting money from consumers, by using hired "hitmen" attornies.

This libel bull$#!t has got to stop! It's getting way out of hand. Fraudulent businesses continue to flood the court system with frivilous lawsuits. We have far more important issues than slander!!

Bottom line and I'll say it again and again, Legitimate businesses that have nothing to hide, would in no way find consumer advocacy sites a threat to their business in any way shape or form, for they would have absolutely no problem coming foward in a public forum to defend their position.

Misty, if you whole heartedly believe that your company has been wrongfully accused of something, nothing would be easier than to prove it false. Go directly to the source of the problem which is the complainant, and stop desperately searching for someone else to blame, like the creator of this awesome website.

Until next time, take care cause I care, Aloha from Hawaii and God Bless.

P.S. Whenever anyone has some extra time, feel free to view my report on the fraudulent John Beck Mentoring Institute. This may give you an idea and understanding for the reason of my hostility. The John Beck Mentoring Institute is a blatant scam.

Hey there Misty,

I hope that my rebuttal finds you in good spirit and health.

Don't take your frustrations out on this website or it's creator. If a business has been wrongly accused of something, the owners would have absolutely no problem whatsoever, proving a report false.

You see that's the beauty of the internet. It promotes free speech. Sometimes I feel a little to much, however, if a person or company is conducting business the way they're supposed to, he, she, or it would find no amount of complaints a problem and would definitely be willing to acknowledge and resolve them in the public eye.

Fact of life! No if ands or buts about it! A year ago, I probably would have felt sorry for you, but with the enormous amount of scams and fraudulent businesses, that exists nowadays, businesses will someday have to start fighting it out amongst themselves.

To much scams and fraudulent businesses to sort through. Another thing, as Bill suggested, learn the difference between slander and libel. They're both defamation, but take two entirely different forms.

Not a huge difference as far as definition is concerned, but big enough to demonstrate, that you are one of those, who so freely throws accusations around. Understand? No better than the very person you're accusing of slander.

Also, not only is the word slander too commonly misused and abused today, slander is very difficult to near impossible to prove in court. Same goes for libel.

In order for someone to prove defamation, one has to prove that someone intentionally and maliciously ruined anothers reputation, by saying or writing false claims.

Sorry to say, the TRUTH is an absolute defense against slander and or libel. The majority of slander and libel accusations are just meaningless threats, in attempt to intimidate complainants and scam victims to keep quiet. Can you say frivilous?

If a company is not willing and or able to prove reports against it to the contrary, in the public eye, but are willing to settle disputes in a courtroom, the company is obviously just interested in extorting money from consumers, by using hired "hitmen" attornies.

This libel bull$#!t has got to stop! It's getting way out of hand. Fraudulent businesses continue to flood the court system with frivilous lawsuits. We have far more important issues than slander!!

Bottom line and I'll say it again and again, Legitimate businesses that have nothing to hide, would in no way find consumer advocacy sites a threat to their business in any way shape or form, for they would have absolutely no problem coming foward in a public forum to defend their position.

Misty, if you whole heartedly believe that your company has been wrongfully accused of something, nothing would be easier than to prove it false. Go directly to the source of the problem which is the complainant, and stop desperately searching for someone else to blame, like the creator of this awesome website.

Until next time, take care cause I care, Aloha from Hawaii and God Bless.

P.S. Whenever anyone has some extra time, feel free to view my report on the fraudulent John Beck Mentoring Institute. This may give you an idea and understanding for the reason of my hostility. The John Beck Mentoring Institute is a blatant scam.

Hey there Misty,

I hope that my rebuttal finds you in good spirit and health.

Don't take your frustrations out on this website or it's creator. If a business has been wrongly accused of something, the owners would have absolutely no problem whatsoever, proving a report false.

You see that's the beauty of the internet. It promotes free speech. Sometimes I feel a little to much, however, if a person or company is conducting business the way they're supposed to, he, she, or it would find no amount of complaints a problem and would definitely be willing to acknowledge and resolve them in the public eye.

Fact of life! No if ands or buts about it! A year ago, I probably would have felt sorry for you, but with the enormous amount of scams and fraudulent businesses, that exists nowadays, businesses will someday have to start fighting it out amongst themselves.

To much scams and fraudulent businesses to sort through. Another thing, as Bill suggested, learn the difference between slander and libel. They're both defamation, but take two entirely different forms.

Not a huge difference as far as definition is concerned, but big enough to demonstrate, that you are one of those, who so freely throws accusations around. Understand? No better than the very person you're accusing of slander.

Also, not only is the word slander too commonly misused and abused today, slander is very difficult to near impossible to prove in court. Same goes for libel.

In order for someone to prove defamation, one has to prove that someone intentionally and maliciously ruined anothers reputation, by saying or writing false claims.

Sorry to say, the TRUTH is an absolute defense against slander and or libel. The majority of slander and libel accusations are just meaningless threats, in attempt to intimidate complainants and scam victims to keep quiet. Can you say frivilous?

If a company is not willing and or able to prove reports against it to the contrary, in the public eye, but are willing to settle disputes in a courtroom, the company is obviously just interested in extorting money from consumers, by using hired "hitmen" attornies.

This libel bull$#!t has got to stop! It's getting way out of hand. Fraudulent businesses continue to flood the court system with frivilous lawsuits. We have far more important issues than slander!!

Bottom line and I'll say it again and again, Legitimate businesses that have nothing to hide, would in no way find consumer advocacy sites a threat to their business in any way shape or form, for they would have absolutely no problem coming foward in a public forum to defend their position.

Misty, if you whole heartedly believe that your company has been wrongfully accused of something, nothing would be easier than to prove it false. Go directly to the source of the problem which is the complainant, and stop desperately searching for someone else to blame, like the creator of this awesome website.

Until next time, take care cause I care, Aloha from Hawaii and God Bless.

P.S. Whenever anyone has some extra time, feel free to view my report on the fraudulent John Beck Mentoring Institute. This may give you an idea and understanding for the reason of my hostility. The John Beck Mentoring Institute is a blatant scam.

Hey Everyone,

I hope that this rebuttal finds you in good spirit and health.

Great point Bill. It appears to be another shill, just freely throwing words around. Typical for a fraudulent business, that's utterly defenseless.

But be careful Bill, for once all the shills start picking up the correct definitions and terminologies, they will turn around and start using it on us consumers. LOL.

Until next time, take care Bill and everyone else, Aloha from Hawaii and God Bless.

Libel is written, slander is spoken. The Internet is written. It's English... Learn it!

I sincerely encourage any and all of our customers [past and present] to support us against these slanderous remarks. If you have seen this posting and have delt with us in the past you will know that this person is incorrect in his opinions of our company (especially in view of identities within our company).

I received an agressive e-mail today regarding this matter from these individuals. To date I have had no contact regarding this non delivery and find that a smear campaign is already underway.

Harrogate Hydroponics has never been in dispute with it's customers and do indeed have a perfect 100% feedback rating, not only on eBay but on other forums throughout the globe!

Although in principle I'd support any facility which exposed fraudulent business practices I cannot endorse (in this instance) the use of this website to slander an honest trader.

I have requested that these individuals contact me with further details on their claim and should such a claim exist we will resolve the matter immediately.

I will be seeking legal representation should Dean & Alex continue acting in this fashion. We have not conducted a fraudulent transaction and will not tolerate this kind of destructive behaviour.

My advice to any person with a complaint against a company is write to them first seeking advice before posting this kind of material.