Complaint Review: Pro Auto Group

If the car were sold "As Is" or "As Is, Where Is" then the buyer has no recourse.

But this vehicle was supposedly "certified" as "mechanically sound". Six hours does NOT constitute a "mechanically sound" clutch, nor do six hours suggest clutch wear.

If a dealer cannot or will not evaluate a clutch because doing so is too expensive, then the terms of sale SHOULD HAVE stated that the CLUTCH was "As Is".

If the terms of sale stated that the CLUTCH was "As Is", then tough! Otherwise it becomes a question of merchantability and fitness for purpose.

If a new car's clutch failed in six hours, I believe the manufacturer would have a very hard time getting out of paying for it. Ditto if a new car's brakes failed in 6 hours. Don't you think?

The clutch is an item that is expected to wear out and need replacement at least once during the life of the car, like the tires, brake pads, wiper blades, belts and hoses, etc. Unlike those other parts, it is expensive to inspect the clutch and see how much life it has left. No car dealer will do that as part of preparing a used car for sale. The clutch problem was not apparent when you took delivery. It is unfortunate that it failed so soon afterward, but I don't think the dealer knew that it was going to.

If this is the only problem you've had with the car, I suggest you pay for the new clutch and move on.

The clutch is an item that is expected to wear out and need replacement at least once during the life of the car, like the tires, brake pads, wiper blades, belts and hoses, etc. Unlike those other parts, it is expensive to inspect the clutch and see how much life it has left. No car dealer will do that as part of preparing a used car for sale. The clutch problem was not apparent when you took delivery. It is unfortunate that it failed so soon afterward, but I don't think the dealer knew that it was going to.

If this is the only problem you've had with the car, I suggest you pay for the new clutch and move on.

The clutch is an item that is expected to wear out and need replacement at least once during the life of the car, like the tires, brake pads, wiper blades, belts and hoses, etc. Unlike those other parts, it is expensive to inspect the clutch and see how much life it has left. No car dealer will do that as part of preparing a used car for sale. The clutch problem was not apparent when you took delivery. It is unfortunate that it failed so soon afterward, but I don't think the dealer knew that it was going to.

If this is the only problem you've had with the car, I suggest you pay for the new clutch and move on.

The clutch is an item that is expected to wear out and need replacement at least once during the life of the car, like the tires, brake pads, wiper blades, belts and hoses, etc. Unlike those other parts, it is expensive to inspect the clutch and see how much life it has left. No car dealer will do that as part of preparing a used car for sale. The clutch problem was not apparent when you took delivery. It is unfortunate that it failed so soon afterward, but I don't think the dealer knew that it was going to.

If this is the only problem you've had with the car, I suggest you pay for the new clutch and move on.

Sorry I cannot encourage you.

I had ONE 'attempted purchase' on ebay motors and it convinced me to not attempt a repeat. But I only wasted my time.

I was top bidder on an auction for a one year old Accord with low mileage in super condition. I was "winning" with a bid of $11,000 when the auction was canceled 5 minutes before its close. Reason: The bid was not high enough, the seller needed a higher price, and therefore he killed the auction because he thought that was more fair than his using shills, and HE stated that some other ebay motors auto sellers did use shills. Lesson learned.

You may or may not have contributed to the clutch problem, but usually it takes a poor driver at least 20,000 miles to kill a good clutch. Most people get 60,000 miles out of a good clutch because they were taught incorrectly so they do not really know how to drive a stick shift. One error is using the clutch to hold the vehicle on an uphill at a traffic light. But 6 hours IS rather quick- you would really have to 'work at it'.

Some suggestions for your future:

1. Buy new. You can get a quote for THE SAME NEW CAR at many different dealers. A used car is a "one of a kind" situation so you cannot get bids to create competition for your purchase. More competition means a lower price, right?

1.1 Essentially ALL autos and trucks depreciate at the SAME % RATE every year. There are 3 or 4 exceptions, and there are simple reasons for those exceptions. I know this because I used NADA and "Carolinas Black Book" data to figure this out. Has anyone else?

1.2 Plot NADA prices using a Log_10 scale for price, same as is done for NYSE stock prices, and you will see straight lines showing a constant % decline every year.

2. For example, Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords depreciate 14.5% EVERY YEAR until they are older than 6 years and fall off of the used car radar screen.

2.1 It is simply not worth the risk to buy a used car that has been depreciating at only 14.5% a year.

3. Buy an automatic. More than 90% of new autos are sold with automatics, and auto trannys are really superior to sticks.

4. When a stick tranny IS offered in a baseline new car, it will be intended as a come-on to advertise a lower price intended to raise buyer interest and get the buyers in the door. Then they tack on $1000 for an auto.

5. The 'standard clutch' is often undersized. See (3). This is why Detroit once offered an optional "taxi clutch" for extra money. The "taxi clutch" was intended for buyers who REALLY wanted to buy a stick.

6. When a standard clutch DOES need to be replaced, you will then "pay for" the automatic you did not buy with that new car in the first place.

Sorry to read about all of the "problems" you have described. I am sorry that I am not AT ALL surprised.

Some say you should not spend more $ on ebay than you can afford to loose. I use shopping bots and I can get the same or better prices than ebay offers, and with better protections.

I know the ebay feedback scheme has simply become an arm-twisting scheme for many "power sellers" who demand buyer feedback before seller feedback is posted.

But the sellers' are the people who feed the ebay monster, and you know the addage about not biting the hand that feeds you. P.T. Barnum once made a famous quote about suckers. So ebay does not have to worry about the buyers. Buyers will always be drawn to the ebay flame just like moths.

Good luck.

Ebay advised me yesterday that they had reinstated my Ebay account. In their words,



"I have reviewed the details of this suspension. In light of additional information that has been submitted and a new review, it has been decided to reinstate this account. I am glad that I have had the opportunity to reinstate this account, and I hope that your future experiences on eBay are pleasant and successful."



Fat chance.



It took Pro Auto Group of Fort Worth less than 12 hours to get my account pulled along with my negative feedback. It took Ebay over 30 days to determine that there was no justification for suspending my account. And though they did reinstate my account, they did not reinstate my negative feedback for Pro Auto Group and I am unable to respond to the negative feedback that Pro Auto Group left for me. It is nothing less than a shameless scam perpetrated on consumers - not just by a shady used car dealer, but by a Fortune 50 corporation. It's despicable.

There are so many blatant fabrications in this company's rebuttal; it's hard to know where to begin. But I'll try. First, I'll expose Pro Auto Group's most outrageous claims. Then I'll rebut those claims with facts. Facts based on real, documented, verifiable evidence. You can draw your own conclusions and decide whether you want to do business with a company that deceives its customers and then attempts to cover its tracks with payoffs, personal attacks and outright lies.



PAG Claim: we proudly wear a 100% "Positive Feedback" rating on Ebay



Fact: Clearly and simply, it's a farce. After our unfortunate experience with PAG, we did some investigation. We discovered nearly two dozen instances of mutually withdrawn negative feedback that allowed Pro Auto Group to make such a claim. But don't take my word for it. Go to the Ebay Motors feedback page under the Ebay Motors ID proautogroup. You'll see 23 instances of mutually withdrawn feedback. Feedback that has been withdrawn, in many cases, only after post transaction payoffs or threat of legal action. We contacted several individuals that had similar experiences to ours and this is what they reported in writing:



They were the biggest bunch of scamming SOBs....promised that if there was a problem they would refund the money..the car had been wrecked and they provided service records for another car.... I finally had to get an attorney and file suit, I had paid $34,000 cash they refused to budge on. When they got served to appear in front of a Austin judge they immediately refunded the money and gave me $1,500 to withdraw the feedback. In the end they still shorted me $250 on the check that was supposed to be for the full price plus expenses. In summary, they are crooks and spend a ton of money on their eBay image...the pics of the car lot is not their lot either.



Here's another:



I left feedback for them referencing legal action as it pertains to odometer fraud, but ebay removed it because it referenced a legal action. After leaving the feedback they immediately left retaliatory feedback. Bottom Line, they sold me a car that they said had low actual miles and then provided an odometer and title statement that said exempt. There was no way to verify the mileage as actual. The Texas DOT dealer division is in the process of action against them for odometer fraud and improper advertising. The dealership will not even answer my communication. They certainly are guilty of questionable business practices in my opinion and fraud based on my understanding of the law.



And another:



I bought a 2005 Hummer that they claimed to be in showroom condition. When it was delivered, it had a door that was damaged and there were extra miles on the vehicle. At first they would not deal at all with me. Then they went through mediation with square trade. At first they offered me some money and I refused. It was worth the principal and I was going to file a case with the State of Texas. Then they admitted to extra mileage and I settled on an amount and agreed to withdraw the negative feedback.



Does that sound like 100% positive feedback to you?





PAG Claim: The car was represented to be certified and mechanically sound at time of purchase a claim supported by pre-sale 111 step mechanical checkup. The damage to the clutch was due to owner abuse after the sale and was the result of the buyer letting her 15 year old daughter drive the car home from Fort Worth to Austin.



Fact: First of all, the reported conversation concerning my daughter is a complete and utter fiction. It never happened. And besides, who in their right mind, would let their 15 year old, unlicensed, daughter - a complete stick-shift neophyte - drive their new car at all much less from Fort Worth to Austin?!! The claim, on its face, is so preposterous that it's laughable and as it happens, completely irrelevant. The fact is that the damage was pre-existing. But don't take my word for it. An independent and truly reputable mechanic a VW expert with over 25 years experience examined the clutch and flywheel and stated, unequivocally, that the clutch damage was pre-existing and had happened over an extended period of time long before I bought the car. You can read and view the mechanic's comments as featured on a Consumer's Watch Report highlighting Pro Auto Group's deceptive practices and broadcast by the local Austin ABC affiliate. http://www.kvue.com/aboutkvue/consumer/stories/050806kvueinternetcarsales-cb.20fe5015.html.



PAG Claim: She filed claims with Ebay Insurance which after investigation were denied due to it being determined that the car failed due to driver error and abuse.



Fact: Ebay Insurance did deny the claim but because the clutch isn't covered under the very narrow provisions of the policy not because of driver error or abuse. In fact, their findings were exactly the opposite. The truth is that the Ebay Insurance adjuster advised Pro Auto Group that based on their investigation, the damage was clearly pre-existing and that Pro Auto Group should cover the damage. We have that communication in writing along with the name of the claims agent.



PAG Claim: As a courtesy to our customer despite the fact that we were not responsible for any claim, we had authorized our representative to offer up to $500.00 to assist toward the pending repairs and reimburse the towing charges.



Fact: PAG offered nothing. They wouldn't even pay for the $300 charge that THEIR mechanic incurred to do initial assessment. We had to pay it just to get the car back with the clutch and flywheel in the trunk.



PAG Claim: All the while this discussion was going on; we employed a 3rd party mediation service "Square Trade" to handle the dispute. The customer proceeded to file negative feedback against us, then further went on to create bogus Ebay accounts in order to purchase other items from us and send additional negative feedback in order to cause harm to us in the public arena.



Fact: We participated fully in the, so called, mediation process hoping to come to a reasonable agreement. PAG's unbending position was that we had caused the clutch damage and only offered to refund the purchase price minus the $1500 in repairs that it would take to fix the vehicle. Obviously, we refused this offer. At that time, we closed the mediation process as is provided by mediation rules, and then, and only then, filed negative feedback. That is verifiable and documented through Square Trade.



As anyone knows who uses Ebay, the feedback process is a fundamental part of buying on Ebay and the only legitimate recourse and leverage a buyer has to ensure a satisfactory and honest transaction. Posting negative feedback for an unsatisfactory, and in this case, fraudulent transaction, is an expected and valid part of that process. As for PAG's claim that I created bogus accounts with the intent to post bogus feedback you've got to be kidding! After all that has happened, does anyone really believe that I would create a bogus account to buy MORE cars from this dealer - just so I could post more negative feedback!! It's its more than a lie it's absurd!



PAG Claim: Ebay did in fact suspend her accounts in the interest of safety for the online community for both sellers and buyers.



Fact: Ebay did suspend my account within 12 hours of my filing negative feedback and at the behest of Pro Auto Group. With no investigation. No explanation. And no justification. The real reason was that Pro Auto Group contributes thousands of dollars to Ebay's bottom line. The effect was to eliminate my feedback and reconstitute Pro Auto Group's 100% feedback sham. When I appealed the suspension, Ebay advised me that they were considering reinstating my account a process which, after 30 days, has yet to be resolved! For Pro Auto Group immediate action without cause. For me, the individual buyer, more than 30 days and counting. This is a clear and disturbing disparity.



Clearly, Pro Auto Group is a company to be avoided. And, unfortunately, Ebay Motors' active complicity in enabling the deceptive practices of its top money makers makes it an auto buying marketplace to avoid, as well.



Shelley Seale



Austin, TX

Pro Auto Group is a major auto wholesale group that sells over 1,000 vehicles monthly. We have sold in excess of 2,000 vehicles online through Ebay and Auto Trader.



It is our company policy that every customer be satisfied with us in our dealings, they way they are treated, and with the cars they purchase. We resolve each and every issue and go to great lengths to achieve that goal, even sometimes paying for items that may go beyond our responsibility as a seller. Because of this, we proudly wear a 100% "Positive Feedback" rating on Ebay and are a Titanium (highest achievement) PowerSeller.



This particular situation is very unfortunate and requires explanation.



The customer told us by telephone that she hoped she could drive the car home since "It has been years since I have driven a stick shift."



When she arrived with her young 15 year old daughter it was discussed that the purchase was for her as she would soon be 16 and be able to get her driver's license. The young lady was begging to be allowed to drive the car back on the 200 mile trip home. (Bear in mind that mom was questioning her ability to drive it since it had been years since she had, and the young daughter had never driven a manual transmission)



We received an email the next morning that the car had driven beautifully all the way home but now mysteriously would run but not go forward.



As is the case with any report so soon after delivery, we obtained the name of a local area reputable service facility near her and arranged for the vehicle to be towed. It should be noted that we fully anticipated a situation wherein we would pay all charges for towing and repairs based on a failure so soon after delivery.



The service center called us to report that the clutch not only was needing to be replaced, but that it was badly burned and that it was due to driver abuse.



We even were considering a wear situation, but the mechanic was emphatic that this was no fault of the car or Pro Auto Group, and that the customer even stated to him that they "may not have driven the car correctly."



All the while this discussion was going on, we employed a 3rd party mediation service "Square Trade" to handle the dispute. The customer proceeded to file negative feedback against us, then further went on to create bogus Ebay accounts in order to purchase other items from us and send additional negative feedback in order to cause harm to us in the public arena.



As a courtesy to our customer despite the fact that we were not responsible for any claim, we had authorized our representative to offer up to $500.00 to assist toward the pending repairs and reimburse the towing charges. She continued to curse and berate our employees. We kindly asked repeatedly that she refrain from her bad language but the attacks became so vile we finally said we would discontinue all communication if it continued.



She filed claims with Ebay Insurance which after investigation were denied due to it being determined that the car failed due to driver error and abuse. She also filed for a paypal deposit refund which also was denied. Because of her malicious and unwarranted postings, and fraudulent activity online, Ebay did in fact suspend her accounts in the interest of safety for the online community for both sellers and buyers.



We feel we did everything in our power to act honorably even going above and beyond in offering first a full refund, and being willing to contribute toward a repair that was needed due to owner abuse. We only hope that the public reading this can look at the matter objectively. Thank you for your time and taking time to consider the facts.