Complaint Review: RESURGENT - CREDITORS FINANCIAL AKA SHERMAN COMPANIES /FNBM/ASCENT CARD/ SHERMAN COMPANIES

First this is why I LOVE this board .... new and useful information is always available and only a keystroke away. I have learned so much from this particular post it is frightening!

J - Lakewood, Ohio

If upon first contact and you request information and they send there own inhouse crap, then they have nothing and are counting on you not knowing your rights and law. They will trick you, lie and make up documents as they go along.

>> Ok how does one know it is "in-house crap"? Would that be the great one-liner the OP stated? ("LVNV now owned the debt and my validation documents consisted of the following statement: At the time the account was acquired from XXXXX, XXXX advised that the balance owing was $XXX.") How do you know the documents are made up? I see on Bud's site a sample document but how would the OP or anyway - dispute that document?

By the way, thanks for asking regarding the health stuff. As you can see, I come and go on these boards because of it. I was doing good until I started reading (and answering!) some of the horse hocky I see going on with the blood sucking collection agencies. I particularly hate to see postings from folks on Social security or disability where the agencies (even after they are told they are on a fixed income AND dispute the claim) try to milk them for everything they have ... If THAT doesn't send me into another stroke - not much else would! ROF LMAO -- So when you see words missing or misspellings, please forgive!

I miss you guys when I don't post and miss seeing all the pearls of wisdom everyone posts. It is so interesting to read new bits of info like in Steve's post regarding the purchase contract and proof of payment, including amount paid, as well as a full "chain of title. This was interesing and useful news ...


Steve --
Here is the catch. Most of these debts are brought in small claims court. In small claims court in most states, they only allow you to sue for actual losses.

>> Geez - I didn't know know that. I thought I read where portfolio companies purchased all these debts and went for everything they could get.

As far as the chain of title goes, you can challenge the legal ownership of the debt all the way back to the original creditor. This means each owner would have to prove proof of purchase. Just like a car, house, or any other investment. This opens a big can of worms.

>> OK so as we read, many posters have gone through several agencies. How is this going to negatively impact the chain of title? (I LIKE this theory).

Is this a possible scenario. Collection company A goes after the debtor and fails to collect and the debt now goes to Collection company B, then C, then D, then E. What do each of these companies need to produce in order for the chain of title to be "affirmed" (is that the correct word?) What would the OP need to do in order to contest this chain of title? Is it possible that the debt was **not** ORIGINALLY SOLD to A, B, C, D and then SOLD to E? How does that work ..


When there is one group of companies it is a common scam they pull to show one as the creditor and the other as the buyer. This doesn't fly in the courtroom as soon as you expose it.

>> Hmmm - very interesting. why doesn't it fly. What proof is needed to expose this? What are the consequences? What does the debtor need to do in court (god forbid it goes that far)? I am really interested in the consequences. How does the court system view this attempt (one giant company with many subsidiaries each having a go at the debtor and not responding with detailed validation informatin) as a violation? Why did Creditors Financial not respond to the OP (other than the obvious they don't have the validation) and Resurgent did?

How does the OP or anyone PROVE what was said (for the $1,000 cash "prize") without a recording?

Here is the best part, when you go to court, if you expose one document as fraudulent, the judge assumes all documents are and will usually toss the case

>> One issue the OP brought out was they had asked for validation. Since the OP wrote Creditors Financial and Resurgent Capital Services replies with their interpretation of "validation", how does that play out?

Is the OP going to have to go through each and every one of those Sherman companies??

Regarding the licensing HA! Those rascals ... does anyone have the link to state licensing requirements for collection agencies? Seems I saw something once but can't locate the link now. This should be interesting info to have on hand!!

Sorry this was sooo loooonnnngggg - I see an NCO abuse, need to get on that one!

"P",

You hit the nail on the head! That is exactly the scam they play.

When there is one group of companies it is a common scam they pull to show one as the creditor and the other as the buyer. This doesn't fly in the courtroom as soon as you expose it.

Here is the best part, when you go to court, if you expose one document as fraudulent, the judge assumes all documents are and will usually toss the case.

After all, this junk debt buyer is coming after you on a debt. Therefore, the junk debt buyer must prove that the debt actually existed and was valid, and the balance accurate, right? Of course they do.

Then they have to prove they own it or have a legal right to collect it, right? Of course they do.

Now here is the one most people overlook. LICENSING! That's right. They must comply with both the state law where they initiate the collection action from, as well as the state you live in. If both states require licensing of debt collectors, they must be licensed in both.

The best way to beat a debt collector/junk debt buyer is to challenge every statement they make and every peice of paper they file.

This is what I have done every time, and I have never lost.

Answer to "P" and "J",

Here is the catch. Most of these debts are brought in small claims court. In small claims court in most states, they only allow you to sue for actual losses.

This comes back to the fact that junk debt buyers are NOT creditors, therefore they have LOST nothing! They CHOSE to buy that old charged off debt as an INVESTMENT!! It was a choice!

What would happen if all of us who made bad investments decided to sue? Think about it. The next time your stock or mutual fund loses money, sue your stockbroker!

I have challenged this on more than one occasion and won. However, this is a defense you have to build, as the court will not do it for you.

And, when they provide proof of payment of the purchase of the debt, that would automatically inlude the price paid either for the individual debt or the portfolio.

As far as the chain of title goes, you can challenge the legal ownership of the debt all the way back to the original creditor. This means each owner would have to prove proof of purchase. Just like a car, house, or any other investment. This opens a big can of worms.

during validation, generally they are not required to show how much they paid for the debt, just what is owed, whom the original creditor is or whom there collecting for., and the dates.

during discovery yes, they must prove if its requested and they must show the documentation for trial.

You can request basically anything when requesting validation, most will only provide what is required by law.

If upon first contact and you request information and they send there own inhouse crap, then they have nothing and are counting on you not knowing your rights and law. They will trick you, lie and make up documents as they go along.

More people should push for criminal charges agaist these collection agency'y that submit false documents trying to collect on them.

These affidavit of ownership and sale of claim that these places use in court are suspect at best. They file paperwork that they paid $$$$ for this debt and truth be told, the older the debt, the less they pay for it.

I know your aware that validation and discovery are two very different things.

By the way how you been feeling lately? I know you been sick.

Also demand proof that they own the debt which should include the purchase contract and proof of payment, including amount paid, as well as a full "chain of title" that goes back to the original charge off.

>>> Bet that puts a burr in their saddle. What does something like that look like? What does the chain of title look like? I've not seen this info before (I LIKE IT!!) Since the Sherman Companies "own" all those companies listed above, do each of them have the right to independently contact the OP? Since Creditors Financial (A Sherman company) made contact with the OP and they were told validate it but instead (as I read the posting) gave it to another entity of Sherman Companies, is that legal? Is this person going to have to deal with each of the Sherman Companies subcompanies? What a nightmare!!!!

I saw on Bud's site that they "manufacture" documents .....

Another thing of importance is that someone CANNOT just "enter a judgement" against you. This, too is a FDCPA violation. They cannot even say it legally. You must first be sued, and lose and then someone can get a judgement.

In your DEBT VALIDATION request, here is exactly what you want to ask for:

DEMAND to see the original signed contract that created the original debt, as well as a full account history and itemization of charges. Also demand proof that they own the debt which should include the purchase contract and proof of payment, including amount paid, as well as a full "chain of title" that goes back to the original charge off.

Be sure to send this by Cert mail/RRR, and be sure to put the certified# on the letter itself and keep a copy for your records. This procedure is very important as it proves exactly what you sent.

Have fun with these idiots. Be sure to file complaints online at ftc.gov, and also to sue them for the blatant FDCPA violations.