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  • Report:  #117549

Complaint Review: Tinsel Town Shih Tzus

Tinsel Town Shih Tzus Ripoff, Just try and get a straight answer from them Salt Lake City Utah

  • Reported By:
    Pittsgrove New Jersey
  • Submitted:
    Sat, November 13, 2004
  • Updated:
    Wed, June 06, 2007
  • Tinsel Town Shih Tzus
    tinseltownshihtzus.com
    Salt Lake City, Utah
    U.S.A.
  • Phone:
  • Category:

All I wanted was a puppy or two to love. I just asked for a price and this is what I encountered. I have included every email from start to finish. I have not edited anything. I can't believe how I was treated. I am so glad I have decided to go with another breeder as I feel I can not trust anything these women say. I have also found out just recently that the ad in which I found this breeder has a picture of a darling puppy but that this puppy is not even her puppy. She did not birth her or even ever own her. Yet she is advertising it as if it is one of her puppies. In addition, she states she has certain breeding lines and doesn't even own any dogs from that line. As you will see, she has statements all over her website that she refuses to back up and then blames me that she didn't back it up. What was I to do? I just believed what she had voluntarily put in writing.
Here are the unedited emails between us. They are in reverse order from the latest to the first. You may want to start at the bottom.

I see that you have taken off of your website about sizing and pricing at 5 weeks but it still says and again I quote:This is a good friend's litter, that Tazz sired, if interested please contact Julie or Craig for prices and specific info on pup: Also the exact sizes are on the website just as they have been for a week now so I don't understand what the big problem with giving me a price was and is. Why do you continue to say all these things on your website and then give someone a hard time. Also you don't think you were evading the price question but if you would read the all past emails I had asked for a price at least four times. Can you see why I felt this way with this and everything you stated on your website?
Ora

You keep comming back to the statement that you did not know what puppy I wanted but and I quote:"Just an FYI though, the male you are considering I have 2 other people that have been inquiring about him in the past 24 hours." from your own words in your reply to me that you did know which puppy I was interested in. So please do not bring this point up again. Also, if you weren't sure of the "true size" you shouldn't have posted the sizes on the website. You should have waited until you were sure. This is not my fault to believe what you had put in writing. Also, about the personality-- I am very interested in a good personality but at 4 and 1/2 weeks puppies don't have much of a personality yet and are just comming into theirs so what else was I to go on for the time being. You should know this as you have had litters before.

About--Also, to get a general idea of the pricing, the Website already has that information under the button "Sizes & Prices". If you would have read your own website you would see that it says:
Sizes & Prices
Please contact me for
sizes and pricing.
$800.00 - $1500.00

Am I just supposed to pick a price that I like as long as it falls in between $800 and $1500? According to your statement in this last email I guess this is what I was supposed do to.

Ora

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

I can somewhat see your point Ora, but there seems to be a lack of communication about what was needed on both sides.

1) I was waiting to find out which puppy you were wanting specifically. That is the simple reason why I did not give you a price of a puppy. I also did not want you to assume the one price I gave you was for another puppy. That can definitely lead to contractual arguments we would like stear clear from. You then indicated in your last email that you wanted pricing for both puppies. That was the first indication to me of you being interested in both puppies. I have never been asked for the pricing of two or more of the puppies at once. That is just unusual for me. I am not a breeder who does this for my lively hood and so I do not give out mass pricing. I am not interested in just selling the puppies for money for anyone who is willing to buy them so I can support myself. I breed the puppies for quality results and for the experience itself and take this very personally. I want to make sure they go to a great home where they will be taken care of and loved. This is evident in the fact that we still talk to many of the people who have purchased our puppies from our previous litter and that we have people who come back to purchase another puppy after buying one from a previous litter. That is also the reasoning behind why I focused on a specific puppy instead of a price list. People we have sold to have only contacted us about the puppy they are interested in, not just which one from the litter fits their pricing model or the smallest one. They ask us about their personality and focus on the look of the puppy. That seemed to be the break down in communication between both of us. I simply had a different perspective than you on what information you were needing and you in what information you were expecting from me. Could you buy more than one? Of course. It is just not a common request for puppies of the same litter and was not understood in that manner.

2) Because the puppies have just entered the 5th week, I also needed to weigh the puppies again to verify the size of the smaller one, especially since you were so specific about "guaranteeing the size". I wanted to make sure it was as true to size as possible and be sensitive to the situation you indicated your friend was in. I hope you can see why I was being careful to not give you incorrect information and why I went to the effort to have more exact weights for you specifically. After weighing the puppies and seeing your inquiry of the weights of all the puppies, I included all of the information. That seemed to be the mistake though, as much to my chagrin, you accused me of "[selling] a puppy out from under you". I should have only given you the size of the two available puppies so you did not jump to any conclusions., but it was a rude comment nonetheless based on the perspective that you felt slighted by me not offering you the smallest puppy first. Offended? Yes. It was a pretentious attitude in every way. You seemed to think that you were the only person who had spoken to me about any of our puppies and wanted to put a deposit down, when 3 of the puppies have been spoken for since the 1st week they were born, (all to buyers of our previous litters). Also, to get a general idea of the pricing, the Website already has that information under the button "Sizes & Prices". But I understand your confusion, because we again return to the mobias loop we were originally in, where you then wanted specific and exact pricing on all the puppies and not just one.

Was it an inconvience to do what I did? No. I wanted to make sure you knew I was willing to get you what you needed, i.e., specific weights for the puppies.

Your "References comment", again another poor statement to try to offend us.

I am sorry we got off on the wrong foot and wish you the best in your search.

Regards,

Julie

----- Original Message -----

Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 18:49:11 -0700

You only have two puppies available. It shouldn't have been a problem to give me the prices on both. Why should I have to pick one to get a price? I liked them both but price is an issue. You told me to go to Tinseltown Shih Tzus and see the litter but I had been to the website and this is how I got your email. It states- and I have copied it directly off on the website-- Prices will be available at 5 weeks old when we know what sizes they will be. I understand that you were not going to price the puppies until you had sized them but the website clearly states under each available puppy:
--This little guy is going to be 6-7 lbs. He is such a wiggle worm and wants to explore
everything---
--This cute boy is the Pick of the litter. He is going to be 3-5 lbs. Maybe just over 5lbs. He
is so very sweet and will crawl over and rest his head on your lap and just cuddle.

You said that you would price your puppies when you sized them and you had sized them so I don't think I am out of line in expecting you to be able to give me a price on both puppies. I was actually interested in buying both but I wanted to make sure I had enough money to pay for both before I committed myself to you. I don't think this is unreasonable. As I wanted the puppies that I buy to be friends and brothers would have been wonderful. I am sorry I didn't know I was only allowed to buy one and only one.

If you were not ready to price your puppies you should have just said so I really wouldn't have minded waiting. But when you state these things on your website and then you won't give me a price. Can you see where I could feel that you were not being up front with me? You are not the only breeder I have been in contact with. I have been looking for a while and I just want someone to finally back up what they say without a problem. I guess you and your partner are on going to do that. You can get offended all you want but I think I have proven my point. Don't say something on your website unless you are willing to back up. What you have stated on your website is completely misleading. I am glad I have decided to go with another breeder because if you are misleading on this item I seriously doubt how your correct sizing will be and if you would back up your health guarantee at all.

It also states on the website--

Please investigate the breeder you are buying a puppy
from. Get references, a good breeder will give these to
you if you just ask. Too many people are getting ripped
of because they do not take the time to do this. .

I guess I should have asked for references from the beginning and could have saved us both a whole lot of wasted time.

Sorry for the inconvenience, Ora

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

The last thing I am trying to do is pressure you about buying a puppy, you just said that I sold one out from under you in the last email. So, I thought I would let you know that I have had others inquiring so that if someone else wants him, you did not assume that I sold this one out from under you ALSO. I have been everything but evasive. You never told me which puppy you wanted and that is what the price depends on. It is difficult to give a price if you don't even know what you wanted. I am not dishonest and have nothing to hide...I even went to the vet today for you and got the weights, so I do not appreciate your comments. Good luck in finding your canine companion...Julie

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:14:28 -0700

You keep evading the question about price but now you are pressuring me about buying the puppy. This is very unprofessional! I don't know what you are trying to hide but I think I will just pass and work with someone that is more honest and up front. By the way your puppy is not the only one I was looking at either. There are plenty of breeders in the USA who have teacups and they are answering my questions without all the hassel.
Good Luck with your litter,
Ora
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

The one that is 15 oz was sold at birth...it is a female and I had someone from the last litter that wanted a sibling(the pup they bought from us from the last litter is 3 & 1/2 pounds at 9 months old). The 2 that are available are 1 lb 2 oz and 1 lb 10 oz, sorry for the misunderstanding. If you go to www.tinseltownshihtzus.com you can see all of the litter-and the 2 available males. The others are in the placed puppies section. Just an FYI though, the male you are considering I have 2 other people that have been inquiring about him in the past 24 hours. Thanks Julie

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:32:27 -0700

How can he be sold already when you won't even give me a price? I have been asking for a price for this whole time.
Ora
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

The one that is 15 oz is sold. The one I sent the picture of is 1 lb 2 oz (just 3 oz more).

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:25:20 -0700

Thank you for getting these for me. The one you sent the picture of--is he the one that weighs 15oz.? What was the weight of the other available puppy?
Ora
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

OK, I just got back from the vet...The weights are as follows...1 lb 11 oz, 1 lb 10 oz, 1 lb 8 oz, 1 lb 2 oz (boy that I sent the picture of), and 15 oz. Thanks Julie

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:39:57 -0700

I am retired and only have grandchildren who visit once in a while. The youngest grandchild is ten. I don't have any other dogs but would love a tiny Shih Tzu. I don't want to breed. I just want someone to carry around and be my best friend as I live alone. I have a friend that has two Shih Tzus and I just love them. If you don't know the weights of the puppies how do you know how much they will be as adults? How did you determine the size? My friend's dogs are great but one is big and the other is tiny. She said that she was told that the big one was going to be very tiny and he got to be quite big. She told me the mom and the dad were very small. Dad was about 5 lbs. and the mom was about 6 lbs. I just don't want to make that same mistake. Also, Did you have a price for me?
Ora
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 2:30 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

The mom is 7 pounds and the dad is 5 & 1/2 pounds. I can tell you that the smallest male will range from 4-6 pounds and the larger male will be from 6-8 pounds. These are the only 2 pups left available. I can not guarantee the size it would be as an adult, since nature takes it's own effect on pets. Do you currently own a shihtzu or any other pet? Do you have any children? Are you looking for a small one for breeding purposes? Let me know...thanks Julie

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:00:05 -0700

Were you able to get weights on the puppies? I am very interested. How about prices? I would like to put a deposit on a puppy right away if you could get me the info.
Thank you for your time,
Ora
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

Hi there, the puppies are 4 1/2 weeks and the smallest weighs just under 1 pound and the others I am not exactly sure, but about 1 1/2-2 pounds. I will get a scale and get back to you on the exact puppy. Which one are you looking at? Let me know...Thanks Julie

----- Original Message -----
Subject: puppies
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:19:12 -0700

Hello,
I was wondering how old your puppies are now and how much they weigh.
Ora

Ora
Pittsgrove, New Jersey
U.S.A.

12 Updates & Rebuttals


Linda

Deltona,
Florida,
U.S.A.

Tinsel Town Shih Tzu

#13Consumer Comment

Wed, June 06, 2007

I read the report about Tinsel Town shih tzu and all the negative things. I do not know why or how the problem arouse but I can say with 7 pounds of proof next to me that my pup from Tinsel Town shih tzu is flawless.

I have nothing but good things to say about Angela and the wonderful "friend" she sold me. Tinsel Town answered every question I had concerning my pup and some I didn't even know about.

My pup was born with a hernia - the breeder refused to send the pup to me until 'she" had it repaired at her own cost - this was to be sure that the hernia (which is VERY common) was repaired. My Meechie is a tiny little lady that is full of life. She is 2 1/2 and has never been sick a day in her life. She is gentle and loving with a marvelous disposition. The quality of this pup is beyond reproach.

I was very concerned about buying a pup through the internet - Angela answered all my MANY questions and I am delighted with my pup. I can only say to the person who filed the report - you missed out on a great pup.


Angela

Taylorsville,
Utah,
U.S.A.

Truth is all I am after Karen aka recent NICDAA officer

#13REBUTTAL Owner of company

Sat, June 18, 2005

Karen I would like for you to be completely honest and write the truth about whom you really contacted and why you really posted the emails that were written to Julie and Craig, not I. What lead you to believe that this would teach me a lesson in customer service? Why you lied to me about constructing the letters under the name Ora? How clever to use the name just close enough to one a dog's in your females pedigree Cora I adora. I have let things lye and stayed away from the situation, but am continuously getting attacked by you. How? I have received calls from potential buyers or people looking for stud services and told that you told them not to go to me or that my dogs are ugly. In fact, some of our stud dogs share the same lines. When you put down my lines you are putting down your own in a sense.

You have gone on to apologize and stated that it is none of your business how I want to treat my customers' still misleading readers that you ever contacted me. Still trying to deflect that you did something wrong, still insinuating that I was wrong , that I wronged you in some way so you didn't feel foolish by just saying sorry, I was in the wrong. So let us here the truth to all of this. Lets get it all out in the open.


JM

Bedford,
Nova Scotia,
Canada

Lesson for breeders

#13Consumer Suggestion

Mon, February 28, 2005

I came across this doggie soap opera while I was researching potential breeders for purchasing a new pet.

TO KAREN/ORA: I assumed you had alzhiemers (sp?) or some type of mental deficiency in your original e-mails and I thought that the Breeder was absolutely correct in her responses to you.

You seemed crazed, dis-jointed, unusually uptight and unaware of what was being presented to you in regards to the size of the puppies and which puppies were indeed available.

If anyone sent me an e-mail like this I would flat out deny them a puppy as I would not want to inflict a pet to the irrational behaviour of such an incompetent person.

You were not "teaching" anyone a lesson in customer service, you were trying to sabotage a competitor and you failed miserably

I don't know if you are as unintelligible as your alter ego (Ora) but you should feel embarrassed, ashamed, apologetic and disgusted by your childish behavior.

From the second I started reading your e-mails YOU sounded like a lunatic I hope you retire from business and stop dealing with the public soon.


Angela

Taylorsville,
Utah,
U.S.A.

Karen Christensen- Shih Tzu Breeder

#13REBUTTAL Owner of company

Fri, February 18, 2005

My Mother did not write this report. Regardless of ALL previous statements or emails posted to this report. Karen and I no longer do business together but have settled our differences. Although, not in a public forum as suggested above. Again, Sorry to all involved.


Molly

SLC,
Utah,
U.S.A.

Karen Christensen, "Ora", a breeder with the worst ethics I have ever seen, heard, or actually had the displeasure of seeing first hand of seeing this

#13UPDATE Employee

Fri, February 18, 2005

I don't know if anyone will have the same pleasure I have had of meeting this person, and knowing what kind of vindictiveness she is made of. Not only did she construct these emails to hurt Angela Maynard, Owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzus, but claimed she did it to teach Angela a lesson in "customer service". Is this even Karen's lesson to teach? . . . . .

The only problem is, she never emailed Angela or called her. How Do I know this, well, Karen called my home( Angela is my Daughter and rents from me) to talk to Angela at 11:30 pm in the night to profusely deny ever writing these emails (which are saved on my answering machine), and posting them to this site. After Angela called her on the carpet for her dishonesty. I try not to get involved in Angela's business affairs but enough is enough. Karen is now threatening to sue persons whom have worked with Angela, because she cannot sue Angela out right, due to the following messages. These would be great flaws in Karen's suite. Not to mention proof of her own character. I hope any and all who read this or know of someone doing business with this woman will direct them to this website. And then let them decide if this is the kind of person they would want to be doing business with.

I hope Karen can go on this report she wrote and apologize to Angela for misleading people to think she actually contacted Angela. In her apology she states she contacted Angela. This is false and untrue. Any problems Angela and Karen had had were are only relevant because Karen, again, constructed the emails to get back at Angela, for what ever reason Karen felt was worth it. She goes on to say that nothing in the emails were coached or baited and STILL implies that it was Angela that she was corresponding with. Karen was so appalled that she felt she should post the emails. Emails that were NOT written by Angela.

I mistakenly thought that this would help her in the long run with her customer service.
Karen's own words. Yet, again, She never emailed Angela. And how exactly was this going to help Angela? . . . . . . . I still have not figured that one out yet. Let me know if you do.

Now this was supposed to be about customer service, yet she brings another dog that is not of her (being Karen) breeding into the spotlight. Karen also had this dog posted on her website, but do you see Angela throwing a fuss? Lets address this in order for those whom do not understand. The dog, Mokey, was registered to Angela up until recently. Angela had permission from the breeder of the dog to post Mokey's picture and her sister's picture on Angela's website. Angela was trying to help the breeder sell Mokey's sister. It was stated clearly on her website.

KAREN SAYS NOT SLANDER-She is right. . . .
NO KAREN THIS IS NOT SLANDER, IT IS LIABLE- a form of slander, and even more damming to Karen, and her character because she has taken it into a open PUBLIC forum at her own discretion and has made a fool of herself in the process.
Karen also claims she is very sickly. This is true; however, that does not excuse her behavior in the least amount.

And Just for the record, I am writing this of my own free will, and it is true and honest.
Who else whould like to see an apology? I doubt she will get it, and I expect to hear about another vindictive email in the morning. This is how Karen works, I have learned.


Rob

Clinton,
Utah,
U.S.A.

Agree with Tinsel Town ShihTzu

#13Consumer Suggestion

Tue, December 28, 2004

As a breeder and exhibitor of both Pedigreed Dogs and Cats for many years, I can honestly say every once in awhile you come across a nut case or two interested in purchasing one of your babies. Sometimes they are very hard to distinguish but the truth eventually comes out. Karen just so happens to be just that. That is why I now have an inquiry questionnaire on my Website that asks a series of questions to familiarize me with the prospective owner. Only after it is sent to me will I email or speak to the person inquiring and in most case will require them to meet face to face with me unless they are a breeder that I am familiar with through exhibiting. This usually weeds out the nut cases. They will definately make themselves known when face to face which is definately a requirement if they live locally.


Dee

Topeka,
Kansas,
U.S.A.

Satisfied customer

#13Consumer Comment

Tue, November 16, 2004

While I'm not sure of the basis for the animosity demonstrated by "Ora" or "Karen" or whatever her name is, I am writing to say that I recently got a puppy from Angela Maynard of Tinsel Town Shih Tzu. I found Angela (who doesn't appear to be the person with whom Karen communicated throughout the above emails) to be very prompt in getting information to me, both by email and phone. She in no way misrepresented her puppy's origins to me (the puppy was from another breeder for whom Angela's dog was stud)and I found her web site to be informative and factually correct. Her pricing was accurate based on the size of the puppy and she readily sent the parent's pedigrees for my information. She was most helpful in making the arrangements to get the puppy to me, even changing flights due to a schedule problem on my end. I would readily get another dog from this breeder and wish her the best in growing her business.


Angela

SLC,
Utah,
U.S.A.

SLANDER

#13REBUTTAL Owner of company

Mon, November 15, 2004

Yes, Karen, your definition of slander is correct. However, this is slander, and I have every intention of pursuing this in the correct way. Karen NEVER contacted me, Angela Maynard, via email or telephone at all under her alias "Ora". On my website, for everyone to see, it is stated to contact the owners of the puppies for information, in bold letters. It is stated that my male was the stud, not that this was my litter to sale. I did call Karen and told her to set it right. I knew it was her because of the way everything was written, you see, this is not the first time Karen has done this to a breeder or reported under a false name. Even in Karen's or "ora's" statement it has Julie and or Craig listed as to whom she wrote to and received replies from in the emails. Not Angela or Tinsel Town. It is funny that she says the emails are not altered in anyway yet in the emails she has posted the heading:

Ex.1.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

Which doesn't have a sender or reciever listed.

Ex.2.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ora"
To: "Craig
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:57:07 -0700

Which does have the sender and reciever listed.

I apologize to all that have been pulled into this. And Karen, listing your medical problems to get support because you are so sickly is not the way to do it. We might as well line you up there with one handed Debbie Jensen, the friend that you right to under another alias. Because that is were YOU have placed yourself. So, Karen, Did you ever email Tinsel Town Shih Tzus specifically? Because your admittance of guilt still states that you talked to Me. Which is a lie. That my dear is slander. If anyone really cares to see these emails. Please see my website in the nusery there is contact information for Julie and Craig and they will be happy to forward them to you.


Craig

Salt Lake City,
Utah,
U.S.A.

The Truth comes out from "Ora" a.k.a. Karen. She admits her guilt! The emails show it was PREMEDITATED and done with a MOTIVE in mind.

#13REBUTTAL Individual responds

Sun, November 14, 2004

Notice: I encourage all Shih Tzu Breeders to read this. It is the lowest form of business ethics you can find.

The call Karen, a.k.a. Ora, received from Angela was not a call about Blackmailing. It was a call to hold her accountable for her unethical business practices and causing a loss of profit and the delivery of a puppy a deposit was placed on. She did this by Slandering and defaming Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's. As well as us, the Sellers.

But Thank you Karen, for your ADMISSION OF GUILT about your deceitful and malicious behavior.

"All [she] wanted was a puppy or two to love...." yea, right.
Her MOTIVE was to SLANDER someone else - so she could try to RUIN Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's reputation in the market FOR HER OWN PROFIT. Please read the first rebuttal to her false accusation.

Are any lawyers out there reading this wanting to jump in on this one yet?
You will, keep reading....

Karen at Eagle Gate Shih Tzu's (Competitive Breeder), has VIOLATED all ethical business tactics in a vile attempt to hurt Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's business.

Slander, entrapment and defamation of character are just the beginnings of this situation, yet she is still going after Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's and saying that you should not do business with them.

When will the insanity ever end! Please stop trying to say you were trying to do this for some higher purpose also. That is absolutely pathetic.

Karen also violated the rules set forth by Rip-off Report.com by submitting this report under a false identity and with false statements! (Now it is a Customer Service issue and not that we were Evasive on giving her something we could not provide. I am not even going to address that, as the emails show what we did for her at first.

AND have you noticed in her rebuttal, that it is still not about the us, the Sellers, but about Slandering Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's.

HOW MANY other breeders will she try to blackball by creating a problem and then being the solution if she does not like them? And then to boot, she MASS EMAILED the entire Shih Tzu community with emails in an attempt to RUIN Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's REPUTATION?

WHY would anyone ever do business with this lady?
If she can do this,.....she can do a lot more.

AND SHE DID DO MORE! (This gets better people. You do not want to stop reading).

Karen called up and LIED TO ANOTHER BREEDER, whom she knew Angela, the owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's, was getting a puppy from.

She WANTED TO WARN' this breeder that Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's was reported on this Website - and that she, Eagle Gate Shih Tzu's, came to "Ora's" rescue, (the ghost name and the client she created). What a hero - WHAT A LIAR!

BUT WAIT!!! Karen then claimed she helped Ora by selling her the two puppies "[Ora] just wanted to love". (On the positive side, Karen just sold herself two of her own puppies). --- I hope she made a profit.

NOW, the breeder KAREN called and LIED TO to, IS REFUSING to send the agreed upon puppy. She is also refusing to return the $500 deposit to Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's because of this report listed.
This is underhanded and way past ethics now.

Does anyone feel sorry or empathetic for her yet?

On the contrary, YOU SHOULD BE REALLY SCARED of how Karen at Eagle Gate Shih Tzu's conducts her business against other breeders.

Thanks for the helpful lesson Karen, but we screen our buyers also and "Did not feel comfortable with [you]" one bit after your false accusations. My instincts were right about "Ora" from Eagle Gate Shih Tzu's all along. She was a not a person we would want one of our darling puppy's to have a home with.

People, we can beat this to death, but Karen at Eagle Gate Shih Tzu's is going to be dealing with a lot of things in the near future after this experience.


By the way, this isn't a classroom where you are the teacher with the leather strap in your hand and have all the power to do whatever you would like. This is the business community, OUR Community, and you just violated ever ethical and some business laws set-up to protect that community, both the buyers and the Breeders.


Karen

West Jordan,
Utah,
U.S.A.

This is not in anyway a Slander.

#13Consumer Comment

Sun, November 14, 2004

No Slander ever took place. The defination of slander is:
Slander
Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
Everything I have posted is the complete and utter truth except for the name I posted under. This is my only fault. None of the emails posted were edited in any way shape or form. What was said was the original statements. There was never a derogitory or malicious thing said by me. I never tried to injure her reputation. This was never my intent. I did not put in the words "rip off" in the title. The ripoffreport did this all on there own without my knowledge. The only thing I am at fault for is not using my own name. I am sorry for not comming right out into the open and saying who I really was. I did not mean for this to be a personal attack on you or your dogs, Angela Maynard--Owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzus. I was just trying to show you that you must back up what you write on your website and in the process I was trying to help you improve your customer service. I know now that this was not my place and was the wrong way to go about it. I am very sorry.

About the puppy pictures, it was never about Mokey. It was about her sister and I even proved this to you last night when I emailed the ad in question to you. It was also about the fact that you have my kennel name in your ad after you had sold everything out of lines. I had tried to resolve this through phone calls and emails but you refused to do anything about it. This was a serious problem for me as I had informed you that people were contacting me about you though these references to my kennel. I begged you to take everything having to do with me off your ads and website so this would no longer happen. You completly ignored me. I was desparate and I felt this was the only way I could get through to you.

Angela, I am utterly sorry for the way I handled this. I never should have posted this ripoffreport. It is none of my business how you treat your puppy buyers. I underestimated your evil vindictivness and I do realize that you will now try and destroy my life as you are now currently doing to someone else who would not do what you wanted. If you want to try and take away my disabilty which is the only way I have of supporting myself and my son, as I am an extremly ill single parent with active Lupus and on Dialysis (Life Support) as you told me you would do when you left me a message on my phone to blackmail me. I am so physicaly worn out and close to death that I do not have the will to fight a losing battle with you so do what you feel you must to me.


Karen

Salt Lake City,
Utah,
U.S.A.

There may have been a ghost name used but it is the truth and only the truth

#13Consumer Comment

Sat, November 13, 2004

To whom it may concern: I am Karen Christensen and I am the one who wrote the emails to Tinsel Town Shih Tzus. I did this under a ghost name due to past problems between Angela and myself. I simply wanted to inquire about sizes and prices of her available puppies and I was treated horrendously. As you can see in the correspondences in this report. And all are true and have not been cut or pasted into make anything seem false or bad against Angela Maynard. Everything is true to my knowledge. Nothing that she has said in these emails where coached or baited. They are strictly her words. I did NOT email her with the purpose of defaming her or her kennel. But when I was treated with such horrible customer service I was so appalled by it that I felt she should not be treating people this way and I thought I should post her emails so that people would see how she treats who she assumed was a stranger and a perspective buyer. I mistakenly thought that this would help her in the long run with her customer service. I thought that she would just apologize to the person and treat people better in the long run. I was completely wrong however as I received a phone call at 11:30p.m with her threating me and blackmailing me as she did assume that this was me.


Craig

Salt Lake City,
Utah,
U.S.A.

This is absolute Slander from a competitive breeder who posed as a buyer to try and blackball Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's

#13REBUTTAL Individual responds

Sat, November 13, 2004

Notice: We are not the owners of the website, but Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's was kind enough to post the puppies to show them, (at no cost to us).

I encourage you to read all the emails posted and look at the effort I put forth to give her accurate information as quickly as she was demanding it. The emails below are not in chronological order, but used as references for the issues Ora has accused us of.


The Problem:
Ora's reason to report Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's is all about her NOT receiving a price for the puppies, which are 4 weeks old.

A price not given! That's it folks, nothing more. And this all happened within ONE DAY.

The Accuser also openly acknowledges that the pricing was not to be established until the 5 week time period in her own email, yet states we are evasive for not providing that to her and reports this Website for not providing her pricing. (This does not add up).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ora"
To: "Craig
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:57:07 -0700


I would like the smallest one but I would like to know the weight of the whole litter to compare. How much are you asking for your puppies. I know it said that you would have prices at five weeks when you could size them but there are sizes on the puppies now. Also, do you guarantee the size within a certain range?
Ora

----- Original Message -----
From: Craig
To: Ora
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: puppies


Hi there, the puppies are 4 1/2 weeks and the smallest weighs just under 1 pound and the others I am not exactly sure, but about 1 1/2-2 pounds. I will get a scale and get back to you on the exact puppy. Which one are you looking at? Let me know...Thanks Julie



She stated that she wanted the weights of the entire litter to compare and have us possibly guarantee what the weights might be. She stated that she did not want to make the same mistake her friend made and get a larger puppy than what she wanted.
(The requested information was given to her after I made a trip to the vet specifically for her. Not an easy task with 5 puppies, 3 children and one on the way).

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

OK, I just got back from the vet...The weights are as follows...1 lb 11 oz, 1 lb 10 oz, 1 lb 8 oz, 1 lb 2 oz (boy that I sent the picture of), and 15 oz. Thanks Julie

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:39:57 -0700

I am retired and only have grandchildren who visit once in a while. The youngest grandchild is ten. I don't have any other dogs but would love a tiny Shih Tzu. I don't want to breed. I just want someone to carry around and be my best friend as I live alone. I have a friend that has two Shih Tzus and I just love them. If you don't know the weights of the puppies how do you know how much they will be as adults? How did you determine the size? My friend's dogs are great but one is big and the other is tiny. She said that she was told that the big one was going to be very tiny and he got to be quite big. She told me the mom and the dad were very small. Dad was about 5 lbs. and the mom was about 6 lbs. I just don't want to make that same mistake. Also, Did you have a price for me?
Ora


[This is important because after the weights were given, she then accuses us of selling the smallest puppy out from under her].

After giving her the weights for the entire litter - I then indicated only 2 puppies were still available, the second to the smallest puppy and another larger one.

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:25:20 -0700

Thank you for getting these for me. The one you sent the picture of--is he the one that weighs 15oz.? What was the weight of the other available puppy?
Ora


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

The one that is 15 oz is sold. The one I sent the picture of is 1 lb 2 oz (just 3 oz more).



----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:32:27 -0700

How can he be sold already when you won't even give me a price? I have been asking for a price for this whole time.
Ora

Huh?
Does this make sense at all?
She was just told that the one we sent a picture of was NOT the smallest puppy, but then accuses us of selling a puppy she had never seen nor claimed out from under. How can this be evasive or dishonest on our part?

From the beginning I did not feel at all comfortable with this person. That became evident after she accused me of "selling a puppy out from under her" within hours of meeting her (the dishonesty issue). But again, the puppy she accused me of selling was the smallest puppy of the litter - who was already shown as being a "Sold Puppy" on the website.


A Rip-off only occurs when you put something out on the table and then withdraw it unfairly.

I never gave anything out contractually in the first place nor sent a picture of a puppy that was not available. Also, no price was given, nor a sale ever established with Ora on any of the puppies at all! How then can dishonesty even be an issue here?

I think you can clearly see that the issue was not about being evasive at all. There is another motive to this listing and that is found in her opening statement when going after Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's specifically and not us, the sellers, per say.

Based on her opening statements in the forum on both us and Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's, you can tell she has information very few people would have or even be able to research let alone in a few hours.

Example:

". I have also found out just recently that the ad in which I found this breeder has a picture of a darling puppy but that this puppy is not even her puppy. She did not birth her or even ever own her. Yet she is advertising it as if it is one of her puppies. In addition, she states she has certain breeding lines and doesn't even own any dogs from that line".



She states that the owner does not own the dog. Is she nuts? According to the AKC registration, the owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzu is listed as the owner of the dog and it was recently sold by the Owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzu.

(I am not sure if you have ever tried to sell a house or a car that was not yours, but it is not something you can do without proving you have a title or a license. These dogs are all licensed and you must sell them with the proper papers).

This is more of a personal attack on the owner of the Tinsel Town Shih Tzu website in regards to a specific darling puppy this competitor once wanted to have and to breed, but was turned down because she kept bickering about the price.

Why would she make that accusation about ownership of the darling puppy she speaks of?
The accuser, Ora, is really saying that the Owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzu is claiming that the puppy is from her own established lines, not necessarily that she legally bought and owns the darling puppy. Not something everyday buyers are concerned about. She is meaning that Tinsel Town Shih Tzu has no right to sell that puppy or claim she owns it unless given permission by someone who the lines came from when stating that she doesn't even own any dogs from that line.

(Because we know the Owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzu, we also have an email sent from the competitive breeder, to the Owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzu stating the same thing.) That email is included as a footnote. *

Does this make sense or matter at all?

It doesn't. But here is where to find the connection for the rest of the world who could not understand that statement:
In the pedigree for the darling puppy, you will find one dog in the lines that is in this breeder's lines 2 generations back. Ora, somehow believes that this "darling puppy" is not Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's puppy to advertise or sell, unless authorized by her. Because she was not allowed to buy the darling puppy a little while back, she told Tinsel Town Shih Tzu that she will find a way to blackmail her in a heated conversation. That email is in the possession of the owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzu.

And here we are today. It is not her personal line, but only a common link to the lines that have been established. What a stretch! What an accusation! What a joke!

It's malicious and horrible. You really can learn a lot from what people say about others. Also, to pose as a buyer and try to entrap us for the purpose of going after Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's is absolutely horrible.

After the I.P. addresses have been verified, an email will go out directly about this breeder's website and possible legal action on behalf of the Owner of Tinsel Town Shih Tzu for Slander and by the Sellers for Entrapment.

I am also surprised this email was allowed to be posted, as the statements are completely false based on Ora's own emails.

This competitive breeder also contacted us directly when the puppies were born, stating that our Female was her puppy in an effort to have us work with her and not Tinsel Town Shih Tzu's in the future. We did not choose to do so. That may have made her mad at us. Email included in footnote.


From the beginning I did not feel at all comfortable with this person. That became evident after she accused me of "selling a puppy out from under her" within hours of meeting her (the dishonesty issue). But again, the puppy she accused me of selling was the smallest puppy of the litter - who was already shown as being a "Sold Puppy" on the website.

Interesting Note: The puppies that have been "pre-sold" are all on hold. No deposits have been given, nor a set pricing established with the buyers. We will not establish the prices until we are sure of their official classification as a Teacup or an Imperial Shih Tzu. Another email you will read from her is about us pressuring her. But without a deposit, there can be no pressure on the buyer. It was just honest information being passed along as a deposit was never asked for.

----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: puppies
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:14:28 -0700

You keep evading the question about price but now you are pressuring me about buying the puppy. This is very unprofessional! I don't know what you are trying to hide but I think I will just pass and work with someone that is more honest and up front. By the way your puppy is not the only one I was looking at either. There are plenty of breeders in the USA who have teacups and they are answering my questions without all the hassel.
Good Luck with your litter,
Ora
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: puppies

The one that is 15 oz was sold at birth...it is a female and I had someone from the last litter that wanted a sibling(the pup they bought from us from the last litter is 3 & 1/2 pounds at 9 months old). The 2 that are available are 1 lb 2 oz and 1 lb 10 oz, sorry for the misunderstanding. If you go to www.tinseltownshihtzus.com you can see all of the litter-and the 2 available males. The others are in the placed puppies section. Just an FYI though, the male you are considering I have 2 other people that have been inquiring about him in the past 24 hours. Thanks Julie


* First Footnote email. Note: Names, prices and other sensitive information have been blacked out for obvious reasons. Notes which do not alter the content have also been added for understanding. The email is otherwise untouched.

> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:24:26 -0800 (PST)
> From: Tinsel Town Shih Tzu
> Subject: Re: Mokey
> To: [Competitive Breeder]
>
> [To Competitive Breeder],
> Please stop telling me what I should and shouldn't
> do.
> I have not told anyone that she is my lines and it
> says so on Mokey's page. I don't even have my own
> lines established. I had talked to [XXXXX] and [XXXX]
> about Mokey and was told I should sell her. It isn't
> false advertising because in no way have I said I
> bred
> her or her sister. Besides they are [another breeder's]
> lines
> too. Anyways, don't worry about it. It doesn't
> concern you any more. I am sorry to have bothered
> you.
> But thank you for replying to me.
>
> [Tinsel Town Shih Tzu]
>
>
> --- [Competitive Breeder]
> wrote:
>
> > She could be bred. The lines of my pick are better anyway.
> You
> > can sell [XXXXX]'s dog for
> > whatever you want. I don't really care what you
> do.
> > If I bought her I would
> > keep her and breed her at least one time. You bred
> > Tashie and she is smaller
> > than Mokey I am sure. {Side Note: [Tashie is not smaller than Mokey]}.
> > Whatever, [Tinsel Town Shih Tzu], do what you want. We both know
> the
> > real reason you want to
> > sell her. Now that you are selling her how about
> > taking her picture off your
> > ads and putting your own puppies on them. Also,
> you
> > had better take her
> > sister off your ads as you didn't whelp her and
> you
> > won't have anything that
> > is related to her. This is false advertising to
> > imply that she is one of
> > your puppies that you bred. Aren't your own
> puppies
> > good enough?
> > [Competitive Breeder]

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