- Report: #186954
Complaint Review: Hotbizsites.com Hotwebsites.us Hotbizsites.net Best-site-host.com Atowebsites.com Automaticwebs - Nationwide
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Hotbizsites.com Hotwebsites.us Hotbizsites.net Best-site-host.com Atowebsites.com Automaticwebs
Hotbizsites.com Nationwide, U.S.A.
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Hotbizsites, hotwebsites, lilhost, dailycashsites ripoff, scamdishonest, fraudulent advertisments Internet
You are now the proud new owner and webmaster of this website! The website and all accounts have been transferred to your name. All of the profits are
now going directly to you. If you log in to your accounts you will see that you have already started generating profits! Congratulations once again :)
This is what got me the first time i came across hotbizsites.It's in writting what else could I want?
I came across hot biz in aug.2005 I'm a single mom and was working graveyard at a gas station while my boys slept at home,after I thought was research I went ahead and bought 2 casino's at $19.00 each what a deal I thought this is what i was beliving on the casino. I yet to make one penny on it I guess I'm to belive no one signs up on my two casino sites.
This website has a one year money back guarantee. If after one year you are not making a minimum of $7500 per month in profits you will receive a guaranteed cash-back payment of 10x your initial purchase price. For example, if you originally purchased this website for $500 you would receive a $5000 refund, if you originally purchased this website for $1000 you would receive a $10000 refund, etc.
Our websites have all been specifically created to make money, they are proven profitable before they are sold, and they always generate a very large amount of profits for the new owners. If you do not generate the stated level of profits you simply need to take advantage of the 10x money back guarantee. We are absolutely positive you will be extremely happy with how much money you make each month. We guarantee it. then in oct 2005 i went ahead and bought two more this time it states i recive 100% profits every 90 days a check was to be sent out besides the 100% profit I was to get they promised this
When my check didn't come i took the steps they have listed in there FQA's
Payouts are always sent out on time but can sometimes arrive late because of slow postal service. The first thing to do is calculate your expected payout date using the instructions provided on our FAQ page. Take into account that if your payout is being sent via mail the check obviously can not arrive on the same morning of your payout date. Even Fedex can not deliver that fast. Mail service takes time and delivery to some parts of the world can take up to 15 days or more. If your payout is not at least 15 days overdue do not contact us. Be patient. Payouts sometimes arrive late but non-delivery is very rare. The problem is almost always slow postal service. If your payout is more than 15 days overdue please contact us via email and we will assist you.
If your payout is being delivered online (PayPal, StormPay, e-Gold, etc) you will not experience any delivery delays but we often see other problems such as missing or incorrect contact information, incorrect PayPal or StormPay email addresses, etc. If you believe there is a problem with your payout email us with: Your seller's name, email address, auction username, and the auction item number if applicable. Tell us which websites you purchased, when and where you purchased the websites, and your expected payout date.
Your full contact information including your name, address, PayPal or StormPay email addresses, and any other email addresses you use. Any other information that could be helpful. Once we have this information we will check into the transaction and delivery and do our very best to assist you.
and i heard nothing except I was being charged so much everytime they didn't like my emails charged for threats with a statment of i will take further action I email them telling them how i was losing my home where is my check. well here i am no elec. no food amd the two reasons i stayed at home and put my trust into this busines stay else where until i get things in order. they never even responded back nothing they are cold hearted
finally 3weeks ago i hear from them they want money I guess someone bought a site under my name for full price $600.00 and they wanted it. at the same time paypal froze my account and i'm unable to get to the money. I told them what was going on but they keep sending me reminder email at $25.00 a pop and then told me how customers rely on hontesty and if i didn't send the money they would tell my customers i was a scam.
this is the reason they say i haven't recived a check until i pay them i want recive one
what about the first two checks i asked i owed nothing then response was pay off your debt you will get a check .
this was just the other day i was told this i started off owing $584.00 know i owe $1084.00 and rising the rest is my maners,threats and asking the same question to many times at this point in time i figured out they owe mw $142,917.00 and climbing
All i want is what they owe me and i would go on my way. To many people are falling for the same bs as i did. They need to be stopped and the only way is to co e together as one
a few emails from both parties------
IF THATS THE CASE THEN ONE MORE QUESTION WHAT ABOUT DEC.2005 AND
JAN.2006
PROFIT CHECK THERE WAS NO AFFILATE BALACNE DUE THEN ?SO SENSE THAT THE
CASE THEN I CAN TELL MY ATTORNEY THESE CHECKS WILL BE SENT OUT?
----- Yes, the checks will be sent out. As soon as your affiliate account balance has been paid in full.
-----------------------------------------------------
Katherine
yermo, California
U.S.A.
CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.
now going directly to you. If you log in to your accounts you will see that you have already started generating profits! Congratulations once again :)
This is what got me the first time i came across hotbizsites.It's in writting what else could I want?
I came across hot biz in aug.2005 I'm a single mom and was working graveyard at a gas station while my boys slept at home,after I thought was research I went ahead and bought 2 casino's at $19.00 each what a deal I thought this is what i was beliving on the casino. I yet to make one penny on it I guess I'm to belive no one signs up on my two casino sites.
This website has a one year money back guarantee. If after one year you are not making a minimum of $7500 per month in profits you will receive a guaranteed cash-back payment of 10x your initial purchase price. For example, if you originally purchased this website for $500 you would receive a $5000 refund, if you originally purchased this website for $1000 you would receive a $10000 refund, etc.
Our websites have all been specifically created to make money, they are proven profitable before they are sold, and they always generate a very large amount of profits for the new owners. If you do not generate the stated level of profits you simply need to take advantage of the 10x money back guarantee. We are absolutely positive you will be extremely happy with how much money you make each month. We guarantee it. then in oct 2005 i went ahead and bought two more this time it states i recive 100% profits every 90 days a check was to be sent out besides the 100% profit I was to get they promised this
When my check didn't come i took the steps they have listed in there FQA's
Payouts are always sent out on time but can sometimes arrive late because of slow postal service. The first thing to do is calculate your expected payout date using the instructions provided on our FAQ page. Take into account that if your payout is being sent via mail the check obviously can not arrive on the same morning of your payout date. Even Fedex can not deliver that fast. Mail service takes time and delivery to some parts of the world can take up to 15 days or more. If your payout is not at least 15 days overdue do not contact us. Be patient. Payouts sometimes arrive late but non-delivery is very rare. The problem is almost always slow postal service. If your payout is more than 15 days overdue please contact us via email and we will assist you.
If your payout is being delivered online (PayPal, StormPay, e-Gold, etc) you will not experience any delivery delays but we often see other problems such as missing or incorrect contact information, incorrect PayPal or StormPay email addresses, etc. If you believe there is a problem with your payout email us with: Your seller's name, email address, auction username, and the auction item number if applicable. Tell us which websites you purchased, when and where you purchased the websites, and your expected payout date.
Your full contact information including your name, address, PayPal or StormPay email addresses, and any other email addresses you use. Any other information that could be helpful. Once we have this information we will check into the transaction and delivery and do our very best to assist you.
and i heard nothing except I was being charged so much everytime they didn't like my emails charged for threats with a statment of i will take further action I email them telling them how i was losing my home where is my check. well here i am no elec. no food amd the two reasons i stayed at home and put my trust into this busines stay else where until i get things in order. they never even responded back nothing they are cold hearted
finally 3weeks ago i hear from them they want money I guess someone bought a site under my name for full price $600.00 and they wanted it. at the same time paypal froze my account and i'm unable to get to the money. I told them what was going on but they keep sending me reminder email at $25.00 a pop and then told me how customers rely on hontesty and if i didn't send the money they would tell my customers i was a scam.
this is the reason they say i haven't recived a check until i pay them i want recive one
what about the first two checks i asked i owed nothing then response was pay off your debt you will get a check .
this was just the other day i was told this i started off owing $584.00 know i owe $1084.00 and rising the rest is my maners,threats and asking the same question to many times at this point in time i figured out they owe mw $142,917.00 and climbing
All i want is what they owe me and i would go on my way. To many people are falling for the same bs as i did. They need to be stopped and the only way is to co e together as one
a few emails from both parties------
IF THATS THE CASE THEN ONE MORE QUESTION WHAT ABOUT DEC.2005 AND
JAN.2006
PROFIT CHECK THERE WAS NO AFFILATE BALACNE DUE THEN ?SO SENSE THAT THE
CASE THEN I CAN TELL MY ATTORNEY THESE CHECKS WILL BE SENT OUT?
----- Yes, the checks will be sent out. As soon as your affiliate account balance has been paid in full.
-----------------------------------------------------
Katherine
yermo, California
U.S.A.
CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.
4 Updates & Rebuttals
Katherine
yermo,California,
U.S.A.
A MUST READ EMAIL : KELLY MARTIN with hotbizsites webhelp gone way to far
#2Author of original report
Tue, May 02, 2006
HotBizSites.com Partner ec nh crazedesertgal This is your third and final warning to pay. You have stolen money from us and from your customers. There are forums with negative postings because of bad people like you. Unfortunately, you are not the first scammer that has joined up as a Reseller, kept the customers' payments, and tried to blame everything on us. If you do not pay our company the wholesale costs of each order then your customers can not keep their websites. When you steal the customers' money the customers lose their websites and their accrued profits. YOU are scamming your customers out of their websites and profits. The customers may at first become angry with our company but we will let them know the truth. You have defrauded the customers, not us. A few confused people may blame your illegal actions on our company. They may even post their experiences in the forums. But we are not worried because that has never affected our business in any way during the last 8 years. We operate honestly and our track record proves it. I wish you were as honest as our company. Pay your affiliate account balance immediately. Your customers will be able to receive their payouts on time and everyone will be happy. Remember that your affiliate account balance reflects the wholesale amount you need to pay for each website ordered. The customers have placed their orders, we have already delivered the websites, but you have failed to pay us the wholesale amount due. You have taken all of the money from the customers and kept it for yourself. You are a theif. Any complaints you see against our company are the result of a bad Reseller like you stealing the customers' money. This is why some customers do not receive their payouts and this is why some customers complain. It is your fault, not ours. We have treated you and the customers with complete honesty. You have defrauded the customers and robbed them of their profits. Shame on you. We will soon need to contact the customers to let them know that you have decided to keep their money. I am sure they will not be too happy. You should expect strangers to begin calling you at 3am making threats against you and your family. Shortly after, you should expect their 'cousins' to pay you a little visit when you least expect it. Think about that for a second. Do you really want to steal money from honest hard-working customers? Is it worth losing family members for such a small amount of money? I have seen this happen before to other scammers in the past. I feel obligated to urge you to reconsider. Please do not steal from people, especially Americans. It makes them very mad and many of them are very bad, very sick people when they are out for revenge against you. Treat your customers with respect, do not steal from them, and everyone will be much happier. Please do the right thing and pay your account balance. Make your payment today. Immediately. Your affiliate account balance is currently owing In the very near future we may decide to allow our Resellers to fund their affiliate accounts using PayPal. You have been chosen along with a very small number of people to test out PayPal as a funding method. TODAY ONLY you may fund your affiliate account using PayPal. Log in to your affiliate account at http://www.MyMemberAccount.com, click on the Fund Account link and use the PayPal payment button to fund your affiliate account with any amount you like. If you fully fund your account within 12 hours you will be credited with an additional 15% profits. If our PayPal tests are successful and you show interest (by paying quickly) we may make thisoption permanent. Your affiliate account balance is negative. All incoming customer payments have been blocked and you are losing out on sales and profits. When your ccount balance is above $0 the block will be lifted and you will start generating profits again. Every time a sale is made your affiliate account balance will decrease. This does not mean you are losing money. Your affiliate account balance decreases because you are making more sales and more profits. You do not need to fund your affiliate account with your own personal money and here are no out-of-pocket expenses for you. You are first paid by the customers and you then use that money to fund your affiliate account. Check your payment processing accounts (PayPal, e-Gold) right now and you will see that you already have the money. You make your profits at the time you fund your affiliate account. This encourages our resellers to make payment quickly, keep their affiliate accounts funded in advance and carry a positive balance at all times. We will give you up to 30% profits on every sale even if you do nothing to generate the sales yourself but you must fund your affiliate account and keep your balance above $0 at all times. The exact percentage you receive depends on how quickly you pay and which funding method you choose. If you fully fund your account within 12 hours via PayPal you will be credited with an additional 15% profits. After 12 hours have passed your profits will be reduced to the standard 5%. Pay quickly for maximum profits. If you fully fund your account within 24 hours via Western Union or e-Gold you will be credited with an additional 30% profits. After 24 hours have passed your profits will be reduced to the standard 15%. Pay quickly for maximum profits. If you wish to pay via e-Gold please visit http://72.36.235.122/members/help/e-Gold.php. If you wish to pay via Western Union please email us for instructions. When using these payment methods, we recommend you fund your account with a minimum of $200 per payment. Many of our resellers fund their accounts with at least $1000 per payment. They receive a credit of $300 with every funding. We recommend you do the same in order to maximize your profits. If you fail to pay quickly there are negative consequences. After 5 days have passed your accounts, websites, profits, and those of your customers will all be frozen. Please make your payment quickly. Remember to move funds from your payment processing accounts to your bank account at least once per day so you can fund your affiliate account every day on time. Western Union payment instructions: When you pay via Western Union you are sending money to an authorized reseller such as yourself. The reseller is trusted and your payment is always safe, guaranteed. We recommend you send payments in the amount of at least $200 per transfer. You may attempt to pay online at http://www.WesternUnion.com. If you experience problems such as refused credit cards, low payment limits, or an array of very personal questions you will need to walk in to your local Western Union office to complete payment. Your local Western Union office may have its own separate building or it may be found in a bank or check-cashing company. Send a "Regular Western Union money transfer". Choose the "money in minutes" instant transfer option. There will be an additional $5 service fee but we will cover all of the fees for you. You will need to complete a form with the recipient contact information below. The recipient name must be exactly as shown below. Important: It is your responsibility to verify that the customer service representitive enters both parties' contact details correctly. Name: Fabiola Gricel Cobos Avila Address: Franco #211 City: Mexico State: Distrito Federal (DF) ZIP: 07900 Country: Mexico If you can only provide two names for the recipient please enter: FabiolaGricel CobosAvila If you must provide three names please enter: FabiolaGricel Cobos Avila Once you have completed the regular Western Union money transfer please provide us with the following information: Recipients Name as entered: __________ Amount of money sent: __________ MTCN (Money Transfer Control Number): __________ Your contact information exactly as you provided it to Western Union. This includes your name, address, city, state, zip code, country, and telephone number. Kelly Martin
Katherine
yermo,California,
U.S.A.
Hotbizsites wonderful webhelp: . Yeah Right
#3Author of original report
Fri, April 28, 2006
Anyone who has delt with htis company and thier AKA's now what I'm talking about. They are the one's you deal with when you buy any of ther turnkey sites. And let me say they are low life lying good for nothing scamming scumms.Once you figure out your not getting paid and start nbugging them they turn around and charge you X amount for asking the same question to many times,Lord don't tell them you plan on making a complaint they will get you for threating them(threat they will know if I ever treaten them) the two I have delt with is Mrs. Larua Collins and Kelly Martin big and brave behind that wall I'd like to see them streets and if they would big that brave still. Enough of them there not worth the air i breath. On this 2mo. search I came across alot of differnt things And I don't know how or who it will help but I know it will someone besides myself. I did a search for webhelp and I found a home page and this is what it what it says website design Reliable service is not a thing of the past! You are about to learn of a unique website design company that's on the leading edge of technology and surpasses exceptional customer service. We have successfully designed and marketed cost effective websites for businesses from coast to coast. Our professional website designers work with each of our clients personally to assure website development solutions which are right for each business. From full website design with professional hosting, to your basic graphic design needs, we will take the time that is needed to give you the results that you deserve. It is because of this dedication and knowledge that we are able to form valuable, long-term relationships with each of our website design clients. They are the foundation of our company and we thank them! Get started today! Contact us contact us Corporate Headquarters 1998-2006 HereToHelp247.com Now when I do an add. search is tells me this add is a apartment building and the phone is no longer in service. And when you type in there IP add. it will come up as an error. Then I found hotbizsites listed under Oaaa with the Ip add of same thing . When I have hotbiz home page pulled up it gives me the name layered tech. well this will be it for now this makes my 3rd time writting this my time foir log on keeps expiring but i do have more lots more CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.
Katherine
yermo,California,
U.S.A.
here is what i found
#4Author of original report
Sun, April 23, 2006
After months of searching I finaly found out a few things ..here is what i found hope it will help someone hotbizsites.com hotwebsites.us hotbizsites.net best-site-host.com autowebsites.com turnkeyprofits-sites.com lilhost.com hotwebsites.com automaticwebs.com dailycashwebsites.com plus more I will post as soon as I find there names THESE ARE THE COMPANY WHO HOST THEM theplanet.com layeredtech.com enom.com + more #1:whois hotbizsites.com UPDATE:wHO IS ENOM ? PRIVACT PROTECT SERVICES.COM .com Top Level Domain [ Querying whois.internic.net ] [ Redirected to whois.enom.com ] [ Querying whois.enom.com ] [ whois.enom.com ] =-=-=-= Registration Service Provided By: NameCheap.com Contact: support [AT] NameCheap.com Visit: http://www.namecheap.com/ Domain name: hotbizsites.com Registrant Contact: WebReg Juan Smith (namecheap [AT] ezStore.org) +1.7183671294 Fax: +1.5555555555 765 Garden St Bronx, NY 10460 US Administrative Contact: WebReg Juan Smith (namecheap [AT] ezStore.org) +1.7183671294 Fax: +1.5555555555 765 Garden St Bronx, NY 10460 US Technical Contact: WebReg Juan Smith (namecheap [AT] ezStore.org) +1.7183671294 Fax: +1.5555555555 765 Garden St Bronx, NY 10460 US Status: Locked Name Servers: dns1.name-services.com dns2.name-services.com dns3.name-services.com dns4.name-services.com dns5.name-services.com Creation date: 30 Oct 2004 01:46:17 Expiration date: 30 Oct 2006 01:46:17 *************************** #2:whois name-services.com .com Top Level Domain [ Querying whois.internic.net ] [ Redirected to whois.enom.com ] [ Querying whois.enom.com ] [ whois.enom.com ] =-=-=-= Registration Service Provided By: eNom, Inc. Contact: paul.stahura [AT] enom.com Domain name: name-services.com Administrative Contact: eNom, Inc. DNS Manager (paul.stahura [AT] enom.com) +1.4258838860 Fax: +1.4258833553 P.O. Box 7449 2002 156th Avenue NE, Ste. 300 Bellevue, WA 98007 US Technical Contact: eNom, Inc. DNS Manager (paul.stahura [AT] enom.com) +1.4258838860 Fax: +1.4258833553 P.O. Box 7449 2002 156th Avenue NE, Ste. 300 Bellevue, WA 98007 US Registrant Contact: eNom, Inc. DNS Manager (paul.stahura [AT] enom.com) +1.4258838860 Fax: +1.4258833553 P.O. Box 7449 2002 156th Avenue NE, Ste. 300 Bellevue, WA 98007 US Status: Locked Name Servers: dns1.name-services.com dns2.name-services.com dns3.name-services.com dns4.name-services.com dns5.name-services.com Creation date: 11 Jun 2001 13:11:27 Expiration date: 11 Jun 2006 13:11:27 ********************* #3:whois whois-services.com .com Top Level Domain [ Querying whois.internic.net ] [ Redirected to whois.enom.com ] [ Querying whois.enom.com ] [ whois.enom.com ] =-=-=-= Domain name: whois-services.com Administrative Contact: Whois Privacy Protection Service, Inc. Whois Agent (yqmygqnrnk [AT] whoisprivacyprotect.com) +1.4252740657 Fax: +1.4256960234 PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1 C/O whois-services.com Bellevue, WA 98007 US Technical Contact: Whois Privacy Protection Service, Inc. Whois Agent (yqmygqnrnk [AT] whoisprivacyprotect.com) +1.4252740657 Fax: +1.4256960234 PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1 C/O whois-services.com Bellevue, WA 98007 US Registrant Contact: Whois Privacy Protection Service, Inc. Whois Agent (yqmygqnrnk [AT] whoisprivacyprotect.com) +1.4252740657 Fax: +1.4256960234 PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1 C/O whois-services.com Bellevue, WA 98007 US Status: Locked Name Servers: dns1.name-services.com dns2.name-services.com dns3.name-services.com dns4.name-services.com dns5.name-services.com Creation date: 25 Oct 2005 13:13:55 Expiration date: 25 Oct 2006 13:13:55 =-=-=-= Whois-Services: ff70b589-242b-499f-b42c-c33c698fa2d1 [AT] whois-services.com *********************** #4:whois internic.net .net Top Level Domain [ Querying whois.internic.net ] [ Redirected to whois.networksolutions.com ] [ Querying whois.networksolutions.com ] [ whois.networksolutions.com ] NOTICE AND TERMS OF USE: You are not authorized to access or query our WHOIS database through the use of high-volume, automated, electronic processes. The Data in Network Solutions' WHOIS database is provided by Network Solutions for information purposes only, and to assist persons in obtaining information about or related to a domain name registration record. Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a WHOIS query, you agree to abide by the following terms of use: You agree that you may use this Data only for lawful purposes and that under no circumstances will you use this Data to: (1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail, telephone, or facsimile; or (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes that apply to Network Solutions (or its computer systems). The compilation, repackaging, dissemination or other use of this Data is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Network Solutions. You agree not to use high-volume, automated, electronic processes to access or query the WHOIS database. Network Solutions reserves the right to terminate your access to the WHOIS database in its sole discretion, including without limitation, for excessive querying of the WHOIS database or for failure to otherwise abide by this policy. Network Solutions reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. Get a FREE domain name registration, transfer, or renewal with any annual hosting package - or just $8.95 with monthly packages. http: //www.networksolutions.com Registrant: ICANN 4676 Admiralty Way Suite 330 Marina del Rey, CA 90292 US Domain Name: INTERNIC.NET Administrative Contact, Technical Contact: IANA iana [AT] IANA.ORG 4676 ADMIRALTY WAY STE 330 MARINA DL REY, CA 90292-6604 US 310-823-9358 fax: 310-823-8649 Record expires on 31-Dec-2010. Record created on 01-Jan-1993. Database last updated on 13-Apr-2006 04: 11:42 EDT. Domain servers in listed order: A.IANA-SERVERS.NET 192.0.34.43 B.IANA-SERVERS.ORG 193.0.0.236 C.IANA-SERVERS.NET 139.91.1.10 NS.ICANN.ORG 192.0.34.126 NS.APNIC.NET 203.37.255.97 NS1.CRSNIC.NET 198.41.3.39 NS2.NSIREGISTRY.NET 198.41.3.108 SVC00.APNIC.NET 202.12.28.131 internic.net has address 198.41.0.6 ******whois enom.com .com Top Level Domain [ Querying whois.internic.net ] [ Redirected to whois.enom.com ] [ Querying whois.enom.com ] [ whois.enom.com ] =-=-=-= Registration Service Provided By: eNom, Inc. Contact: paul.stahura [AT] enom.com Domain name: enom.com Registrant Contact: eNom, Inc. DNS Manager (kelsie [AT] enom.com) +1.4258838860 Fax: +1.4258833553 PO Box 7449 Bellevue, WA 98008 US Administrative Contact: eNom, Inc. DNS Manager (kelsie [AT] enom.com) +1.4258838860 Fax: +1.4258833553 PO Box 7449 Bellevue, WA 98008 US Technical Contact: eNom, Inc. DNS Manager (kelsie [AT] enom.com) +1.4258838860 Fax: +1.4258833553 PO Box 7449 Bellevue, WA 98008 US Status: Locked Name Servers: dns1.name-services.com dns2.name-services.com dns3.name-services.com dns4.name-services.com dns5.name-services.com Creation date: 24 Oct 1997 00:00:00 Expiration date: 21 Sep 2012 13:45:09
Katherine
yermo,California,
U.S.A.
how strange
#5Author of original report
Tue, April 18, 2006
I sent hotbiz a copy of this ripoff report and I've been waiting for them to start charging me like the have done to others in the past and nasty lil emails . But my profits stopped coming in i usally get 5-10 emails saying how much in profits i've gotten ,but 24hrs and i recived 2 maybe it's really a slow day maybe not
