Complaint Review: Disciples Cross - John Raymond - Slidell Louisiana

This is a rebuttal to my rebuttal ;-)  After posting my yell out for help on Friday my initial crosses arrived in the mail Saturday. All of my crosses were returned with detailed analysis of the defect(s) in each of the 22 crosses I sent in. I went through my crosses comparing them with the one sent in the original kit and the list of descrepencies from the company. And I would like to say that they were 100% right on the defects. I was not doubting the company's reputation; I was just worried because I could not get anyone to answer my calls or emails.

I now see a lot of ways to improve on my work and it will go on from here. I am more interested in selling the crosses myself than wiht the buyback program. I have no doubt I will be able to make money with this product. I have been in marketing and retailing practically me entire life. THIS IS A GOOD COMPANY. It just takes a lot of work at first and it will get easier with time. And that is no difference than any other new job.

I have only been with Disciples Cross for 6 weeks. I sent my initial crosses back to Disciples Cross for inspection. I sent my package back on 2/7/2014. I have not heard from anyone since mailing in my initial crosses.

I have made numerous, numerous phone calls and all I get is the answering service. No one will return any of those calls. I have e-mailed [email protected] 4 times and all 4 messages have been returned as undeliverable.

I was, and still am, very hopefull for this opportunity because it is Christian related. I am a licensed producer so I am looking more for personal sales than the buyback program. My big question is: if I get no response from the company how can I order materials?

I don't want to give up on this but what is going on with all the walls I keep running into? Is there another place where materials can be ordered. Appreciate any help anyone can give. In Jesus' name. Phillip w/ Lake Marketing LLC

I'm truly saddened that you have had trouble with your DC endeavor.  I have  emailed you and most others regarding their concerns in the past.  I have even offered my phone number in order to be of help.  Furthermore in the past, I have offered,to purchase left over materials and unsatisfactory cross attempts (rejected crosses made) in order to help anyone out.  Please realize that I am not related to, nor employed by, anyone within the DC program - just an old man who has had fun utilizing the DC Program solely as a ministry and not a money making scheme.   Funny thing though - I have made more money from the program than I ever invested.  Please contact me if I can be of help.

May God bless;
Dr. Skip Amis

I am a producer of Disciples Cross (DC) and have a suggestion to those whom have already signed up to make cross or those whom are considering doing so. The article to which I am writing a rebuttal stated that it's nearly impossible to create a perfect cross that the company will accept.

The way DC works, once you sign up to be a producer, you are given the permission to sell the crosses for your own fundraiser OR you can sell the crosses back to the company. I have found that MANY people do not consider the light scratches or imperfections that are found when learning to make these crosses as a turnoff to buying them. They love the crosses and are willing to pay money for them. If you find that you can't make a perfect cross, include them in your next garage sale, or on a website that you are a part of. Arrange to sell them at your church book store and offer to have a % of the proceeds go to the mission fund. There are alternatives to not being able to create a "perfect" cross. Once you get very good at making the crosses, try again to sell them back to the company. I've personally seen the operation there and can attest to seeing hundreds of accepted crosses being bought from the producers nationwide daily, which means people are able to make this business work. In the meantime, my suggestions could offer an alternative to being an upset customer with nothing to gain.

Sincerely,

A Disciples Cross Producer

Missouri

I've been making Disciples Crosses for about 5 years now. At first it did take me a little longer to make the cross. They are hard to make if you never made them before. Du!!!

Like anything else it takes time to learn something new. Like the video, I can make a cross in five minutes, but like the pastor, I've been doing it for awhile. If you have the time and patience, this could be good for you.

I know several people who make the Disciples Cross. Some make it, some don't.

Something I do is pray allot.

God Bless
Jamesoo700
[email protected]

I am a liscensed manufacturer of the Disciple's Cross and have made thousands of dollars with them over the years. Some of the points above are valid; some or just plain made up, like the 60 point check list. 

Here is the deal: the crosses are hard to make; it takes practice. Until you can make them at buy back quality, you should sell your crosses to individuals. After some time, and some instruction from Disciple's Cross, providing you are able to handle instruction, you will get better and be able to take advantage of the buy back program. 

To the comment bellow:

You judge this Pastor's character based on what, your google search! As if the internet is the source of absolute truth! You can take just about any business, Google it with the word "scam" and pull up a report written by an upset individual. What do you really know? How many of the thousands of Disciple's Cross distributors have you spoke with? Do you know how many people use the buy back program everyday? I made $15,000 this December alone with the Disciple's Cross. Ask me to and I will prove it. Some of you here need to start using your head. You cannot read one artical and then start bashing some guy you dont even know. 

The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him (Proverbs 18:17). 

Disciple's Cross is not a scam. It just takes practice to make their crosses. 

I have been building the Disciple's Crosses for about two years now. After some initial trial and error mishaps, I became very good at manufacturing the items to near perfection. Although my original ten crosses were rejected, I kept going. 

I decided it was more profitable to sell them myself rather than sell them back to John Raymond for payment. My customers are very happy and I get a lot of repeat business. I make more than the $2000 per month he promises. I couldn't be happier with my experiences with this company.

I don't blame him for being stringent on his requirements. He is, after all, distributing them and wants a quality product. It's just business, guys. Don't take it personally.

By the way, about 50% of my sales come from people seeing me wearing one of the crosses I've made.

I think after reading these complaints that most of these people are not comfortable selling the products themselves and were going to rely solely on the buy back program. You have to be diversified to succeed. Be creative and don't quit!

Thank You!

There are way too many critical people around.  Perhaps more people need to be independent thinkers!  Even if a cross takes more than five minutes to make... so what?!  Even if the company will not by back the crosses... so what?!  Why look for get-rich-quick-schemes?  There are NO such things out there!  Work hard, do an honest piece of work, for an honest piece of pay!

I, for one, have been VERY successful with Disciples Crosses.  I have made more than 500 of them in the last four years, and NO, I do not use the buy back program.  I sell them through a local Christian coffee house, veterinary clinic and on my own.  I have successfully sold more than enough crosses to fund my yearly spring-break mission trips (costing $400+ each of the last four years)!

So, I for one, am NOT complaining and appreciate the opportunity to craft these beautiful crosses!

Dear Sanjuro; I'm saddened that you had problems with your first experience; and I like you with my first attempts making the DC Crosses didn't do as well as someone who had been making them for some time. But I didn't give up, and if you would look up my first rebuttal letter, you would find how rewarding and profitable it was for me to "keep on - keepin' on" making DC Crosses. Why are you setting for doubling your profit margin when you can do much much better? This is one of the concerns I cannot fathom from all of the complaint letters that I read. My very first attempt in making these crosses, I took themto a swap meet, mistakes and all just like the ones you discribed, and before I could set up my little homemade stand - people were buying them like there was no tomorrow! I sell them for $7.50 each, or 2 for $10.00. Now please understand my Friend, I'm 63 years old, legally blind, have diabetic neuropathy in both my hands - my right hand (my promanent one is almost totally numb) anddebilitative listgoes on and on whichmakes it very difficult for me to make the crosses - butI continue to make them as a Ministry, and not as a home based job. So possibly if youreassessyour directives and ask the Lord to work with you on the program - things will work better for you. I know that it can, for it has worked for me; for I make on the average $100.00 - $125.00 in sales at every swap meet thatI go to. And I believe that you are much youngerand possibly in a lot better health than me. So in closing, never be ashamed of calling yourself a Christian, nor of doing His work, just because you had a bad first timeexperience; you just need some help. If I can be of help in any way, feel free to contact me via email of phone. I'm list as Skip Amis in Edmond, OK. May God Bless you & reward you in all your endeavors.

Hello, I have read your report regarding your concern about John's business and I feel you are in the wrong by passing judgement on people. If you pass judgement on people, then how can you claim yourself as a christian? Who gave you the authority to judge people? You even pass poor judgement upon yourself when you down yourself about not being able to accomplishing the task of making the crosses. I really don't think you believe in christ, because in this report , you really showed exactly who you are by acting very angry and self defeating, you down yourself, you have no faith in yourself. Remember the verse in the Bible, "I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me?" ponder this for a while, the next time you open your mouth to judge someone just remember this that person you judged, you have also judged Jesus as well. Maybe it's time you committ your life to Jesus and allow him to control you and your tongue.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE IF SOMEONE HAD POSTED A PHOTO OF THESE CROSSES SO WE ALL COULD SEE WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE...

IT IS NICE TO SEE THAT A PASTOR IS SO LIKED AND WELL-RESPECTED BY HIS FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS TOO.

I DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY BELIEVE SOMETHING IS RIGHT, TRUTHFUL OR HONEST JUST BECAUSE IT HAS THE ADJECTIVE "CHRISTIAN" IN FRONT OF IT.

BECAUSE I REMEMBER ROBERT TILTON, JIM BAKKER, PAUL AND JAN CROUCH, BENNY HINN, ETC.

KEEP IT CHRIST-LIKE,PASTOR!

I've been with the D.C. Program for several years now, and I will add, at first I had a little bit of a "Rocky Start."  I had no intentions of marketing my efforts back to the seller, Pastor John, for a little under double my investment - so I took "his marketing advice" and went to a statewide swap meet.  On my first endeavor before I could set up my home-made stand on a "welcome" door mat - I had just "dumped my "Disciple's Crosses out on the table" - within a matter of a few minutes they were selling like "Hot Cakes!"  I was truly amazed!  Even the Crosses which were scratched, made in error (bent wrong), miss-colored, and those which were below standard - they all SOLD for $7.50/ each and two for $10.00 - right along with the ones which were "not-so-bad!" 

As time passed and I've gotten better at making the "little Crosses" - I've found that when little children come by and want a cross - I'll give them one for free.  You'll be surprised how word-of-mouth travels at a swap meet.  People will come over to meet you and want to buy two, three or more, as gifts, to hang on their car mirrors or give away to friends - just because someone was a little bit thoughtful and caring to a child.  In some cases, people do not have the money, or enough money, "So What!" - they walk away with one of the Disciple's Crosses that I made.  It all works well in the end.

So in closing to those of you to whom have found failure at your fingertips, my heart goes out to you with deep regret.  You have to look beyond the shoreline to see the vastness of the sea - it's extremely beautiful and fruitful as well.  Should any of you have any extra cross kits you want to rid yourself of - please do not hesitate to contact me -I'm always in the market.  If I can be of help to you in anyway, so that you can see the benefit in remaining in the program - please let me know.

In His Service - Dr. Skip Amis; [email protected]

I have been making Disciple's Crosses for approximately one year. I have to admit that I bought the starter kit and quickly went to sending my first batch for inspection. I got them all back, none passed!  I look at the ones I make now and I can see the flaws in those first crosses.

It is hard work to make a perfect cross like they show on the website. I think there is a little photo shopping going on. So I do not even do the buy back program. I sell them through work, friends, local shops and I do pretty well. It is not my primary source of income and I don't think I will ever make $2000 a month from them. So I say if it sounds too good to be true it probably is.

Disciples Cross has always sent quality supplies and quickly usually priority mail. You cannot hardly get them on the phone.

I think sometimes because John is a pastor and it is a Christian based idea it is held to a higher scrutiny than most internet schemes.

I just do not think anyone can expect to turn $70 into $2000 a month!

I am a Disciple's Cross producer, and have found it to be a lucrative business. There is some merit to the first ripoff report though.

-It is impossible to make a quality Disciple's Cross in 5 minutes.... at first. I started out making in 15-20 minutes and can now make a quality cross in less than ten minutes.
 
-Disciple's Cross's standards are very strict, but 10 of the 11 crosses I send in from my started kit met their standards except for the way they were folded into thier bags. If I can make the pendant good enough within my first 25 tries (which is how many come in the starter kit) then it's not impossible.

-They do allow you to sell the crosses yourself however and wherever you want so long as you buy your supplies from them and give them credit for the design. With Disciple's Cross you are an independant contractor, which means you are self employed. Here's the thing I've noticed about being self employed. You can't be your own boss and have the benefits of being an employee too. If you want to work from home and actually make money, you have to take some risk and invest your time and money into selling the product. Disciple's Cross lets you do that, and makes it easy to get started with a product.

If you want to try out Disciple's Cross, here is my advise to get the most out of it from the start.

-At first you will only be allowed to buy the Starter kit. It has enough materials for 25 crosses, but you only have to turn in 10 good crosses, so if you screw up, it's ok. Even though they sent all my crosses back (I didn't fold them in the bags right) they still approved me to be a Disciple's Cross producer and I sold all the crosses they sent back and more than recouped my losses. 

-Also, don't buy thier tools. There is another complaint on this website that thier tools are overpriced and crappy, so go to a hardware store and pick your tools. If you are serious about trying this as a business opportunity, take the time to find the right tools and good tools. Also, I found that it's easier for me to make the crosses a using different tools and with slightly different techniques than what the guy on the video says. Experiment to find out what works well for you. Yes, this did mean that I had to buy tools I ended up not using, but I now have a setup I'm comfortable with. Hint: I found a good sturdy needle nose pliers like what he uses in the video at Tractor Supply.

-Buy an extra box of nails! It's less than $10, and then it's no big deal when you mess up a nail bend or your nails are uneven lengths.

Overview: If you are looking for a way to be your own boss without taking any risk, then this business is not for you. But if you are willing to put in some legwork to sell and are good with your hands or enjoy crafts, then this can be a great opportunity to make some extra money.

I am also proof that Disciple's Cross is not a scam. I have no problem making a cross in 5-10 minutes and they are made well enough to be sold. I don't have a problem bending the nails correctly. The information DVD is very good at explaining step by step how to make a cross and customer service is very helpful. I have sold many crosses and use them in ministry as well. Don't blame the company if you don't have the ability to make the crosses well. Not everyone has the skills to make them, but you can't say it's the fault of the company. Just admit you can't do it. And you don't have the right to say the Pastor isn't a Christian. That is between him and God. Maybe you should concentrate on your own relationship with Christ instead of judging others.

I was very sad to read that people think this is a scam. I have had nothing but a wonderful experience working for this company. To the man who wrote in first...it most definitely IS possible to make a wonderful cross in under 30 minutes. When I first started, it took me 45 minutes per cross, and they were not very good. One month later, it now takes me about 10 minutes and they come out beautifully everytime. In my first week of going around and selling them, I made $320 dollars. I have two stores in my town so far that are selling them. This morning, actually, one store sold 5 necklaces in the first 3 hours they were open. I think that people are expecting the crosses to require not much time or effort. It does take time, and they are not easy to make at first. You need to have patience and a real desire to make them not only for the money, but because you believe in them. I have not tried the buy-back program yet because I have had no reason to. I am making so much money selling them myself and through stores that there is no need! To the man who was upset about there being a 2 month turn around period....that's retail. That's supply and demand. I am not saying this in a nasty tone...I'm just saying it because it is fact. I feel extremely blessed to have come across this company. It is allowing me to stay home with my son instead of putting him in daycare somewhere. I promise whoever reads this that it is not a scam :)

I am a former "Disciple's Cross" maker. I don't have time any more but I still have a few left over to make, for any future free time. I had a good experience with the whole cross-necklace making kit and I'm a horrible sales-person. It takes patience and the mindset that this is a ministry and a potential way to make some extra money, not the "windfall" in some people's minds or a "get rich quick" opportunity. I am an artsy person so that helps. I have made several hundred dollars over what I spent to buy the kit and I am a home-maker so that money was helpful to me. I just kept bending nails until they got better & better while sitting there next to my husband watching a football game. You can order more nails if you need to...pretty cheap, by the way, until they are perfected. It is possible to make necklaces in 5 minutes, but you shouldn't get hung up on the 5-minutes per cross, thing. It usually takes me about 20-30 minutes because I take my time. I even used my "scrap wire" to make a multi-colored cross, just for fun, because the colors were cute (the "seams" were all on the back side). My friend, who introduced me to it probably made a couple thousand dollars+ selling them over about a 2 years time-frame. We just got ideas on where to market them from brainstorming between ourselves...craft shows, stores, car dealerships (they are salesmen/women so they buy from you because you have the guts to ask them to purchase. Especially around Christmas...they have bought from me...some 10 at a time!), selling wholesale and selling by consignment, which was usually the case. I even sold mine to a school (with their school colors) for a fundraiser they were doing for one of their campus clubs, with $50% profit to me $5/necklace). We each printed our own forms and kept records of our business. I say, this is a good thing if you have time and it is really fun. Get a buddy to do it with you and split the cost! Do it just for fun and you'll probably not be so frustrated. This company is not a scam. I would call it a disappointment to some, definitely, not a scam. All the disclosures are there...the info. about everything is given to you if you read the forms and listen to the training video. They disclose about the timing to the marketing ideas, even have a few ways to display your craft. Mine was a good experience and I actually miss not having time time for this activity but look forward to it again.

I want to say that I also ordered the kit about 2 years ago. It took awhile to receive it but I did get it. I believe that the concept is great. The meaning behind the material used to make the cross is awesome. I did not buy into the buy back policy. There was no money to make that way. The company itself did give permission to sell the crosses on our own. Which is what I did. There is great profit to be made selling these crosses on your own. If you are a current DC producer or interested in producing these crosses, please contact me for alternative information and help with production.

I also purchased the starter kit. The crosses are not as easy to produce as they say. The instructional video is done by Pastor John who is LEFT HANDED. This means that right handed people must do it right the opposite as what he shows. I have not tried the "buy back program" because of the bad reviews that I have heard about it. I have worked out a deal with a local store to sell my crosses there on consignment. I also plan to do craft shows and flea markets and such. This was my main plan from the start. I know some people don't have the time and don't like to sell. Regards, Wade

I am a certified producer. I bought the starter kit over a year ago and spent a total of $800 before learning that there was an 8 to 12 week turnaround time before I could see any money. I got into this because I would NOT have to do any selling. But.. They never bought ONE cross from me!! While you are BUYING supplies, they are quick to reply. After telling them I had 400 crosses ready to send to them I got a reply telling me there was a 2 month long wait for turnaround. After that they stopped replying to me, period. The ONLY communications I've had from them in a year now are their offers to SELL ME CROSSES! Pastor John made a HUGE deal about being on some TV show. WHO CARES? I needed income to help my family and I chose to put my trust in a Christian organization. Now I have half a thousand crosses and my family has suffered because of my stupid investment in Pastor John. Nobody will buy the crosses! Not local churches. Not local Christian bookstores. No stores, convenience stores, fund raisers, flea markets - nobody will buy my crosses INCLUDING Pastor John! However, I DID get an email from Pastor John last week - ANOTHER offer to sell me crosses! Why does the government allow this scam artist to remain in "business?" Every now and then I replay his training video just to remind me how stupid I was to buy into his program. Its ONLY value is as a lesson in humility!

Ok i just started this d/c work but i sent in my stater kit and 50 units at the same time i have yet to recieve anything but i just sent it in 3 days ago i read on one of these complaints that some one said it takes them a month to get supplies i am sorry who ever you are but i get mine in a matter of 4 days i think you should rethink things here you can sell them at any swap meet book store any where you please really i dont appretate anyone downing something that they did not full investigate or try I am not trying to say that you did not do what you where supposed to do because i was not there but i think some of you have your Q and A mixed up i am sorry however that you were not happy my jesus please you and give you faith for he is our guidance

Ok i just started this d/c work but i sent in my stater kit and 50 units at the same time i have yet to recieve anything but i just sent it in 3 days ago i read on one of these complaints that some one said it takes them a month to get supplies i am sorry who ever you are but i get mine in a matter of 4 days i think you should rethink things here you can sell them at any swap meet book store any where you please really i dont appretate anyone downing something that they did not full investigate or try I am not trying to say that you did not do what you where supposed to do because i was not there but i think some of you have your Q and A mixed up i am sorry however that you were not happy my jesus please you and give you faith for he is our guidance

Ok i just started this d/c work but i sent in my stater kit and 50 units at the same time i have yet to recieve anything but i just sent it in 3 days ago i read on one of these complaints that some one said it takes them a month to get supplies i am sorry who ever you are but i get mine in a matter of 4 days i think you should rethink things here you can sell them at any swap meet book store any where you please really i dont appretate anyone downing something that they did not full investigate or try I am not trying to say that you did not do what you where supposed to do because i was not there but i think some of you have your Q and A mixed up i am sorry however that you were not happy my jesus please you and give you faith for he is our guidance

Ok i just started this d/c work but i sent in my stater kit and 50 units at the same time i have yet to recieve anything but i just sent it in 3 days ago i read on one of these complaints that some one said it takes them a month to get supplies i am sorry who ever you are but i get mine in a matter of 4 days i think you should rethink things here you can sell them at any swap meet book store any where you please really i dont appretate anyone downing something that they did not full investigate or try I am not trying to say that you did not do what you where supposed to do because i was not there but i think some of you have your Q and A mixed up i am sorry however that you were not happy my jesus please you and give you faith for he is our guidance

Ive heard alot of good and bad about Disciples Cross so I looked this up - they think these problems are common for this type of buiseness. (((ROR REDACTED LINK FOR SECURITY PURPOSES))) CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

I have been looking into this business and to be honest, I cannot see how you can have a complaint. The website and the FAQ tell you that you can sell the crosses on your own and set your own price. If you choose to sell them back, you can make a bit over $1 per cross that passes inspection, however if you sell them yourself, you can sell them for anywhere between $5 and $12. You can make a profit of up to $11 per cross. You would make your money back with your first 8 crosses and a profit with the rest. Pretty good in my opinion. I have been reading several forums where people who make the crosses post. They have all said they can make them in around 6-10 minutes after getting used to doing the work. If you figure 10 minutes per cross, and selling them for say $10 each, that is $54 for an hours work. (6 crosses @ $10/each less $6 cost)If you are faster, say 6 minutes a cross and sell them for the same, you will make $90 profit. Heck, even if you figure an 80% loss, you are still making between $43 and $72 an hour. Not too bad for working at home if you ask me. Another idea, make 100 crosses and pay someone else $2 each to sell them for you some day at a park or something. You can still make $700 profit for yourself for about 1 1/2 to 2 days work. Really what it comes down to is you need to read the information at the website. You would find that you have options that would have allowed you to more then make your money back. Everyone reading comments in forums such as these need to remember... People coming here are usually here for one reason and that is to complain. That does not always mean they are right, so read between the lines and do your own research too.

I ordered my start-up kit and began making crosses right away. My friends and family all loved them, so I either sold or gave away all but 5 of my initial 25 crosses. I then placed an order for more materials, which I received in 3 days. During this time I contacted a major Christian bookstore in the area to set up a display and a retail arrangement, to which they gladly accepted. I faxed them an invoice for 30 crosses and they paid me immediately. This store is also going to have me in to assemble crosses at their location at least once a month. I also set up a website to retail the crosses that I make. This Fall I plan to have a booth at various craft fairs and at festivals next Summer. My point here is this....you are given the opportunity to do several different things with these crosses besides the buy-back program. Now I haven't tried that yet, but I've yet to have ANY reason to doubt the sincerity of this company or its founders. For me it has been a blessing, and provision that was much needed. May the Lord make His face to shine upon you as you search for a home business that will work for you.

Please do not be ashamed to be called a Christian. Christ suffered & sacrificed His life for us. I was looking into this business bs today, it sounded so good and easy that I made a PayPal payment to Pastor Scumbag. I just got done stopping payment, and it cost me $20 for the lesson...not bad. Thank you for your input, and i'm sorry that you all had to go through this. After payment I started to think... "These guys can change the standards whenever they want , and send you back how ever many crosses as they want" Total scam! The other thing is...how many freakin crosses do they need? Thousands? I don't think so. I think the crosses that they keep are donated or thrown in the garbage. All Pastor Scumbag is doing is this...he sells all the materials probably 80% profit just on that. You put the crosses together and send them in. He chooses how much money he is going to give back (if any). All he is doing when he does pay someone for some crosses is recycling his profit. He has "Zero" risk. It's a complete circle, and not set up for the producers to make a dime. I'm really pissed that he hids behing the Pastor/Christian facade. He is a phoney, and using God's name to make a profit and decieve others in the process. The guy is a loser, aand will be paid back for this deception...

I never heard of this scam until reading this report. I looked at their website and they refer to their product as a "necklace." That sounds like jewelry to me. Isn't there some federal law prohibiting certain work-at-home schemes including sewing and jewelry-making? My experience has been that anyone who tries to capitalize on his Christianity is someone to avoid like the plague. When they say, "Trust me -- I'm a Christian" you shouldn't because they aren't. One of the biggest financial scams in Arizona history was the recent Baptist Foundation scandal. The victims were mostly Baptist who were ripped off by scammers who wore their religion on their sleeves.