Complaint Review: DS-MAX Niko-Laus Enterprises - Tampa Florida

In all fairness, I should inform the reader that I am not bashing DS-Max or any of its affiliated organizations. My experience with DS-Max is very typical to others who have posted here. I started in Delaware in early 1995. I answered an ad for warehouse to manager-in-training, for $250-300 per week. I was a computer systems consultant at the time making roughly $1500-2500 per week. My wife had just passed away and I was feeling very depressed. The "atmosphere" of the DS-Max office was uplifting, exciting, and had the appearance of a fun place to work. Of course, I was invited to come back the next day for my "Day of Observation." Day of Observation: The day started at 8:30 am. I was told to dress professionally and wear comfortable walking shoes. I weighed about 400 lbs, but what-the-hey, I figured I could handle whatever they threw at me. I was paired with a "Leader" whom I shall refere to as Toby, who would spend the entire day describing the opportunity to me. What I did NOT know was that we would be driving to a location in Philadelphia, 50 miles away, and spend all day "working the system" for 8 hours of constant walking. I do say constant since Toby only sold 4 items the whole day. What impressed me was the manner in which Toby handled the nearly 500 people who, in varying degrees of politeness and down right nastiness, declined his product offer. Toby contined to laud the "System" and the law of averages, and nothing seem to bother him. I liked his attitude and in my vulnerable state, I wanted to feel like he did. He was brutally honest with me. He told me that it was 100% commission, with no benefits, and long unpaid hours. But, and I emphasize BUT, there is an opportunity for those who can work the system, use the 5 steps (with FIGS), and follow the 8 steps to success. I might add that even after 10 years away from DS-Max, I still remember them all: 5 Steps (Introduction, Short Story, Presentation, Close, and Rehash), the FIGS (Fear of Loss, Indifference, Greed, and Sense of Urgency), and the 8 Steps to Success (Have a great Attitude, know your goals, be on time, be prepared, work a full 8 hours, work your terriroty correctly, protect your attitude, know why you are here and where you are going). Since leaving DS-Max, I still use this system in just about every aspect of my life. Is it a cult? No. Is it a rip off? No. Is it a choice? YES! Distributor: I started in the field. The impressive part of the opportunity is that it does not matter who you know, or what kind of degree you have, how young, or old, or thin, or (like me) fat, everyone starts in the field. Therefore, I knew that when I asked for advice, or received training from an assistant manager or owner, that the information worked. It is true that I made barely enough to pay my rent and living expenses during this part of my tenure, but I did make enough. The System does not require skill, athleticism, sharp wit, or product knowledge. It does require heart and a thick skin. It does require an attitude of knowing why you are putting up with all the negatives. What is the ultimate goal? That goal is driven into you every day during the Impacts and Meetings. I was a Distributor for 3 weeks, back then the requirement was $2,000.00 in business in one week. With 3 for $5 stuff, it was difficult, but no impossible. And no, I did not get reimbursed for gas, food, travel, parking, parking tickets, or paying re-trainees. But that part of the system, and I figured that every owner in DS-Max had to go through the same thing. I was in the Military, everyone had to go to boot camp. Leader: As a leader, you are responsible for creating a crew (converted days of observation) and teaching them the field application of the system they are exposed to everyday in the office. There is a lot of turnover. As a leader it is your responsibility to show a day of observation how the system works. How the system requires no skill. How anyone who can make macaroni and cheese can work the system. There are a lot of No's with few Yes's during the day. But it is your responsibility as a leader to let your attitude influence your environment, no the other way around. All the while, you need to constantly remind yourself (and your Day of Observation) of why you are tormenting yourself. As a leader, I helped start or rebuild offices in Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, Connecticut, Florida, Alabama, and Arkansas. Owner: After 2 years of bouncing around many, many offices, I managed to build a crew that worked the system, law of averages, and protected their attitude. I incorporated in Florida. Had my own office. Was actually listed on the back of the DS-Max bulletin! Juice! It was as an Owner that I became aware of the seedy side of DS-Max. Learning to use and discard low-performers was a hard lesson to apply in person. I spent more time telling people to quit, than asking them to stick it out. If a distributor, leader, or assistant manager started to dog it, it was my job to thin the herd. Even knowing that after a few months with any DS-Max office people are basically living day to day, I had to get rid of people when they were at their lowest. This should have been a lesson for me. Still, imagine how may stores would have jumped at the opportunity to have built in workfore, distribution system, free product shipping/delivery, all inventory on consignment that you don't have to pay for until after it is sold! What a deal! Unfortunately, there is an ebb and flow to every business. When your business is based on the attitude of people who do not have the same enthusiasm as you do, there will be lean times. In DS-Max, there are no lean times; either you are making money, or you are closed down. Leader: My office was closed down. I was back in the field. I was bounced to another division (books). In DS-Max, you are only as wanted as your last settle up: a hard lesson in ethics and loyalty. I suffered a heart attack in the field. I was laid up for a few weeks. Due to the medication, I could not drive. The next day I reported to the office and was given a foot order (heavy bag full of product) and told to lug it into the field. I did not last the whole day. I came back early to settle up and get out of the office so my presence would not affect the evening atmosphere. Here is where DS-Max can be sadistic. The owner, let say Anthony, would not let me settle up until after every one who had full field orders had done so. Anthony took every opportunity to ridicule me in front to the other distributors and leaders. I was transferred the next day to another office in another division, with the phrase, "take it or leave it". At this other division, I was turned into a salesman. I was givien days of observation but not allowed to add them to my crew. I was often the high roller (best performer) but never offered an Impact or Meeting. I did well in the field because (like any other owner) I knew, trusted, and worked the system. But once your effectiveness has been checked, and you are under the scrutiny of a divisional vice president, whom I will refer to a Dave K., your days are numbered. It would not have been good P.R. in the office of new recruits to simply get rid of someone for no reason. So they created a fraud frame up. There is no employment commission to protect you if you work for DS-Max. I wound up in a office in Connecticut, where I lasted for another 3 months. Post DS-Max: The fish stinks from the head down. This organization is well grounded in business zeal. If you have an unquenchable desire to succeed, this opportunity works. If you are looking for lifetime career friendships, look elsewhere. Everyday, anyone affiliated with DS-Max and working in the field runs the risk of arrest for violating local soliciting ordinances. I was arrested (detained actually) numerous times for violating some sort of city or local ordinance. Did my owner help me out? Hell no. Did any owner of any office I was in report my wages (1099) properely? Nope. If you leave an office, for any reason other than promotion, you have a difficult time getting back your extra savings. Summary: DS-Max is a heartless, ruthless, uncaring, disloyal, exploiting, quasi-legal, boiler room organization; just like any other large successful corporation. The street smarts you pick up enhances your abilitiy to take all of life's problems and handle them with a positive attitude. The downside is a permanent sense of skepticism you development concerning ANY opportunity.

I have an interview tomorrow morning with Niko-Laos Enterprises, Inc. in Tampa. Since reading these reports I am not going to make that appointment. I did reschedule my day at my real job to make this appointment. But it is nothing that I cant change back. Thank you for saving me a half days real wages and a few hours.

I am in the middle of a protracted job search after losing my job in January. I am a computer programmer by trade, and right now the IT job market is pretty bad. I had just narrowly missed a job last week, was feeling down when I got a call from "Nikos Enterprises"... I tried to look up some things on the internet and did not initially find much. I don't remember sending a resume (I've keep pretty good track of the resume's I've sent out), but being down and out, and d**n near deperate, I listened. But the little I found made me wary...company has an e-mail addy with aol.com, the adds on career builder look hokey... So today I find this site. I'm supposed to have an "interview" in a couple of hours...but was pretty uncertain. I keep hearning in my mind "Primerica, Primerica", another scam "opportunity" that I wasted a couple of days on earlier in the year. The rebuttals in favor of DS-Max seem eerily familiar. So I'm not going. I'm trying to write some software for a friend, and maybe try to market it when we're done developing it...I have at least one other idea for a softwre product. Later tonight a friend's friend is going to call me about possibly doing some painting jobs...I'd rather paint or cut lawns in the Florida heat than try the door to door crap, and I don't need the obvious brainwashing that comes with this gig. Years ago, when I came to Florida I got roped into travellling across Hillsborough County hawking cheesy magic sets and calculator watches in a wool suit for something similar. Screw this noise. I need a real job. Thanks for the warnings!

I am in the middle of a protracted job search after losing my job in January. I am a computer programmer by trade, and right now the IT job market is pretty bad. I had just narrowly missed a job last week, was feeling down when I got a call from "Nikos Enterprises"... I tried to look up some things on the internet and did not initially find much. I don't remember sending a resume (I've keep pretty good track of the resume's I've sent out), but being down and out, and d**n near deperate, I listened. But the little I found made me wary...company has an e-mail addy with aol.com, the adds on career builder look hokey... So today I find this site. I'm supposed to have an "interview" in a couple of hours...but was pretty uncertain. I keep hearning in my mind "Primerica, Primerica", another scam "opportunity" that I wasted a couple of days on earlier in the year. The rebuttals in favor of DS-Max seem eerily familiar. So I'm not going. I'm trying to write some software for a friend, and maybe try to market it when we're done developing it...I have at least one other idea for a softwre product. Later tonight a friend's friend is going to call me about possibly doing some painting jobs...I'd rather paint or cut lawns in the Florida heat than try the door to door crap, and I don't need the obvious brainwashing that comes with this gig. Years ago, when I came to Florida I got roped into travellling across Hillsborough County hawking cheesy magic sets and calculator watches in a wool suit for something similar. Screw this noise. I need a real job. Thanks for the warnings!

I am in the middle of a protracted job search after losing my job in January. I am a computer programmer by trade, and right now the IT job market is pretty bad. I had just narrowly missed a job last week, was feeling down when I got a call from "Nikos Enterprises"... I tried to look up some things on the internet and did not initially find much. I don't remember sending a resume (I've keep pretty good track of the resume's I've sent out), but being down and out, and d**n near deperate, I listened. But the little I found made me wary...company has an e-mail addy with aol.com, the adds on career builder look hokey... So today I find this site. I'm supposed to have an "interview" in a couple of hours...but was pretty uncertain. I keep hearning in my mind "Primerica, Primerica", another scam "opportunity" that I wasted a couple of days on earlier in the year. The rebuttals in favor of DS-Max seem eerily familiar. So I'm not going. I'm trying to write some software for a friend, and maybe try to market it when we're done developing it...I have at least one other idea for a softwre product. Later tonight a friend's friend is going to call me about possibly doing some painting jobs...I'd rather paint or cut lawns in the Florida heat than try the door to door crap, and I don't need the obvious brainwashing that comes with this gig. Years ago, when I came to Florida I got roped into travellling across Hillsborough County hawking cheesy magic sets and calculator watches in a wool suit for something similar. Screw this noise. I need a real job. Thanks for the warnings!

I am in the middle of a protracted job search after losing my job in January. I am a computer programmer by trade, and right now the IT job market is pretty bad. I had just narrowly missed a job last week, was feeling down when I got a call from "Nikos Enterprises"... I tried to look up some things on the internet and did not initially find much. I don't remember sending a resume (I've keep pretty good track of the resume's I've sent out), but being down and out, and d**n near deperate, I listened. But the little I found made me wary...company has an e-mail addy with aol.com, the adds on career builder look hokey... So today I find this site. I'm supposed to have an "interview" in a couple of hours...but was pretty uncertain. I keep hearning in my mind "Primerica, Primerica", another scam "opportunity" that I wasted a couple of days on earlier in the year. The rebuttals in favor of DS-Max seem eerily familiar. So I'm not going. I'm trying to write some software for a friend, and maybe try to market it when we're done developing it...I have at least one other idea for a softwre product. Later tonight a friend's friend is going to call me about possibly doing some painting jobs...I'd rather paint or cut lawns in the Florida heat than try the door to door crap, and I don't need the obvious brainwashing that comes with this gig. Years ago, when I came to Florida I got roped into travellling across Hillsborough County hawking cheesy magic sets and calculator watches in a wool suit for something similar. Screw this noise. I need a real job. Thanks for the warnings!

In response to a post recorded earlier, there has to be atleast 15,00 DS-Max/Granton offices in the world. There are hundreds of divisions from these companies. These include Execucard, advertising, Wheelchair sports just to mention a few. I have never meditated and chanted in another language--that's just ridiculous. And never have I been told to sell no matter what. We are encouraged to get in and get out, no wasting time with salsey pitches. Anyone who could not make it in this business just couldnt deal with the pressure of the job.

I had the unfortunate opportunity to experience a two-week stint with a Granton-affiliated company as a distributor in a Denver office, and that two weeks felt like two months. I didn't even know what the job was after my fisrt interview and was convinced to spend the entire next day (which I could have used to further my job hunt) being their monkey so they could decide if I were right for them. They'll hire you if you have a pulse and guarantee a certain amount of money to you during your first week (which I never got), but they just figure they'll get some free labor from you calling it a "day of observation." That's the introductory ripoff. I wouldn't go as far as to say that it felt like a cult, but when you see these job postings that are "looking for 12 motivated individuals to fill entry-level marketing/advertising positions, dealing with sports teams & golf courses, etc,"... skip to the next job unless you enjoy long hours exposed to any/all elements with little pay and no benefits. They're always looking for motivated individuals because most of the ones they get lose that motivation very quickly and quit. This company actually does provide some quality products/ "VIP Cards" that save people money on items and everyday services (playing golf, oil changes, pizza, etc). The problem is the outright pushing of the product from business to business to business all day long, playing out your "law of averages" while trying to maintain your sanity as you get kicked out of offices, malls, and restaurants from violating solicitation rules. All the while with your "leaders" encouraging you to keep doing it. JUICE, baby. But the flat truth is that these companies will treat you like dirt. I worked from 7:00am to at least 6:30pm every day, taking home an average of $20 per day with no benefits, tips, bonuses, nothing. You're expected to do anything from drive other people around in your OWN car without reimbersement on gasoliine (sometimes putting close to 200mi on your car in a day), high-fiving "teammates" to create the illusuion of positivity, to being guilt-tripped if you don't show up for "optional" Saturdays. They even tried to make working on Memorial Day seem like a happy thing, that we would be "eating at people's barbeques, making their day with wonderful bargains," and that we would even get to leave early for the day-- working only 9 hours. What a gig. They even tried to tell me they were responsible for the Anaheim Angels winning the World Series the previous year due to their marketing strategies. It wasn't the players they signed, it was Granton's promotions that brought fans to the stadium and motivated the players to start winning, apparently. These companies ARE making money, because they ARE selling legitimate products knowing that there are enough people are out there that will buy them, but they want you to do their dirty work by sifting customers out under a false promise for promotion. It will cost them about two dollars to have a certificate made with a promotion, you'll sell it for them for anywhere from $30-$60, you'll get anywhere from $5-$10 for it, and Granton takes the rest. A good day was selling at least 7 or 8, I averaged about 3, and I had two or three days within two weeks where I sold none. And that's the rip-off here. Even if you are somehow promoted from a stressful distribitor job, next are the people in charge of those distributors, which, if one of them quits, it's your fault. And as far as being promoted to an owner, well, let me say this: Our owner was shacking up with 3 other managers in a tiny apartment. I guess his mansion was having work done... All I know is, "management" at this job did nothing but tell me to harass people at work/home, quit my college work because it was a waste of time and money (how ironic), and to somehow not be bothered by having days where I made no money at all... I ended up taking a graveyard shift at the grocery store right after this just because I knew I would get a paycheck at the end of the week for my time. I have a very sour taste in my mouth from this experience... I highly recommend running as fast as you can away from these kinds of companies and their employment "opportunities" if you manage to get lured into it. You'll have a new-found respect for the life of a salesman, but a pile of overdue bills.

Its so hard to trust those in support of DS-Max and Granton and Cydcor and Aliron and all the other companies that were started by DS-MAX (that's right, no matter how you spin it these companies are all inherently the same). Why is it hard to trust them? Because they just love to make s**t up. One example is Mitchell's claim that there are over 12,000 owners in the DS-Max system. When I was in the business I was told there were over 15,000 owners. Which is it? And don't be a dumbass by pointing out the fact that 15,000 is greater than 12,000. If it was greater than 15,000 he would have said so. It is obvious that this number remains unknown - or just severly inflated. Do the math: Lets assume the lowest of the lower number - 12,001 owners. Let's assume that a little under 1/4 of those owners are in the US = 3,000. Divide that number by 50 (states) = 60 owners per state. Take this number and further divide it by (I'm being generous here) an average of 10 profitable towns/cities per state = 6 owners per city/town. I can tell you that there aren't 6 DS-Max companies in most of the biggest cities. Another example is the brutal use of statistics by Eric. He emphatically claims, with a capitalized "YES!", that it is a FACT that the top 1% of the population own 90+% of this country. First of all, what the hell is that supposed to mean? Is that some stupid made up stat that you heard during an "impact"? If you are talking about wealth then you are completely wrong. First of all, the number is closer to 45% for the top 1%. And, I may be wrong, but for it to even be possible for your numbers to work, there'd have to be a trillionaire or two. Eric claims only to "not like the methods used in the office across town." It obviously doesn't stop him from actually using those methods - as evidenced by his use of false and/or made-up information. I could go on and on, but what's the point? These two individuals have discredited themselves. I find it amazing that someone can be proud of their transition from a "soldier of freedom" to a "soldier of door-to-door junk-peddling".

Now I have read this site for months now, watching blind " owners " talk about how great ds max/granton/cydcor is. That their lives have changed, and how they couldn't be happier, blah, blah, blah. I do have to commend the owners though. They figured it out. Have a many people as possible on the street, selling the crap that they do, telling people to do " whatever it takes to sell as much as possible " to increase the money that " their company " makes. Therefore making ds max/cydcor/granton as much as possible. No problem, it is the american way, it happens in every corporation. BUT... look at a situation before you go into it. These guys are masters of crap talk.. They( and I ) were/are taught how to impulse people, lie, cheat, mind screw them. Again I walked away, head up knowing that I am a degreed, and rather successful corporate employee right now. If ds max/cydcor/granton closed it's doors tommorow, 90% of the company( yes I know everyone is set up as an independent distributor, but since your income is based on what programs ds max/granton/cydcor come up with, if they gone you gone! ) would be fry cooks at the local Burger King. Three Quarters of the crap they teach you at ds max/cydcor/granton does not, I repeat does not fly in the real world. I had to re learn alot, believe me. In conclusion, I was cheated out of a great many dollars buy ds max/cydcor/granton as well as the companies they do business with. Since I got screwed, my people got screwed, still that bothers me. But I got them back, I sued and told and will continue to tell as many people who have been wronged, at least money wise, that you do have recourse. In the courtroom, make it public record. Companies like this survive because they are under the radar. The more people talk, the more you will do the real damage. Companies that do business with them( you know who you are ) will realize that for all the new customers ds max/cydcor/granton brings you, the hassle that comes from that, is two maybe three times greater. It ain't worth it. Granted it is free advertising, but you know the old saying... You get what you pay for. Peace my friends....

I would not have stayed in ds-max nearly as long as I did. What I did to myself and to others by being part of this company is just terrible. But I would love to be a fly on the wall in your leaders meeting and in the leaders meeting of that other office across town you keep saying has bad business practices. Did you get built up, broken down and then built up again when they told you not to talk bad on the net about another ds-max office? You know they are corrupt and you got bullied into not speaking your mind. It takes a while for the hold of ds-max to loosen its grip on your mind once they have you. Question your undying faith to this busines that harms so many. Good luck!

While I find it disheartening that some people have had problems with DS-MAX. I find it rather appaling trying to compare a business with a cult. When one does the analysis of what some disgruntled individuals wrote you see that they offer no comparisons to any other job. There was nothing in the cult comparison that didn't sound EXACTLY like my days in the US NAVY or any other armed force of these United States.

I am in the product division so I cannot speak to anything regarding Granton or Cydcor. We deal with actual products that people can see and feel, no charities whatsoever. Does door-to-door suck, yes, that is mentioned constantly, is money mentioned, yes. Let us take a look at what some feel to be the "bad" things. Is it a fact that 90+% of the this country is owned by 1% of the population? YES! So why then do so many people take it as a bad thing when someone from the 1%says, "Hey, you may wanna stay away from [this type of person or this type of situation]" Typically, as we should all know, people are afraid of change, afraid of things that are different, or the status quo. From whom would you rather get your advice? From someone who has achieved something or your family members who are probably not much better off than you?

According to most of you here, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Ben Franklin should have all given up because A.) It was hard B.)People who loved them asked them to stop C.) They thought differently than everyone else. In our office in north denver we have had 2 people just get promoted and get their incorporation papers, one has been in for 3 months another for 6.5 months.

I am completely honest with my days of O, I tell them look some days are better than others, some days you walk away with very little for a helluva long day, other days are well worth it. But the end result is this, obviously someone WILL become an owner, even the original poster (although she contradicted herself) would agree to that. So what if it took you a year to do it, are you going to be better off doing a year here versus whatever job you get out of college.

Let me also correct probably one of the most misrepresented phrases of all time: "Origin- From the Bible. Often misquoted as 'money is the root of all evil'. Timothy 6:10. 'For the love of money is the root of all evil:" THE LOVE OF MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL.

Is it any wonder why I or we would feel contempt for someone like the original poster, who can die happy because she worked her a*s off for someone else for meager wages, instead of doing it for herself, just because she got benefits or she felt good about it. I suggest she not take a job in the insurance field, the retail field, the accounting field, hell not even the fast food field if she is honestly worried about taking advantage of people. I also suggest not walking into a supermarket at all, those are designed by psychologists to manipulate you into buying things as well.

And what she should have done was ask the guy "You have been with Xerox for 3 years what did you start at (moneywise) and where are you now (moneywise)?" I would venture to guess that in that 3 year span he MIGHT have had one raise. Now he can work the long hours and bust his butt and make what he was making in less than a year, lets be honest MOST of us ARE concerned about money he wasnt there just to say hello, he was on a day of O so his last job just wasnt doing it.

As far as the people who are upset that we like our leaders or our managers(owners), what kind of backwards world are they living in, are we supposed to hate the people we work with or for? In the Navy we worked harder for the Chiefs and Officers that we liked and yes, even loved than the ones we didnt. Im not praying to them or deifying them we are all human, but if someone has acheived what I want to achieve why wouldnt I ask them questions and try and soak up all the knowledge they had.

While you would rather ask Bill Gates for money, I would rather ask him how he did it, and how he keeps doing it.

I'm sorry to all of those who have had horrible owners. To be quite honest, in our office we actually dont like the methods used by another office on the other side of town. But scam and ripoff, please, that is laughable. Im sorry that you couldnt make money, I want everyone that is in our office to make money every single day. I want everyone in our office to become owners.
Keep in mind that whenever i say JUICE or any other DS-MAX cliche and give a highfive, that is no different than when i say SOCOM and do the same thing. Or, for the civilian types out there, any sports team in existence.

1. Be wary of salespitches. Does manipulation or coercion enter into the work is presented? Do you find an eagerness to sign you up, get a commitment (a sizeable deposit). Without respecting your right to consider the matter at your own discretion?

A
Yep. You don't have to pay no money. But like when it is your first day to try it out you sign up then and now or not at all.

2. Note the mood of the organization. Are there hordes of people involved? Does the organization respect the rate of each person's progress or is it a hurry up, results-guaranteed affair?

A
Depends on the leader. Some will just put you out on the street with no training.

3. What is the group leader like? What are his/her credentials?

4. What are the personal instructors like? What are their credentials?
A
Anyone they can brainwash enough to stay!

5. Speak to others who have already participated.

Do they repeat the key phrases of their experience? Watch carefully for this, and note that parroting may be a symptom of a well washed brain. Try to get these people to tell about their individual experiences instead. Are they able to do this thoughtfully? If so, this is a good sign.

A
These guys have trainers meetings dedicated to what to say to new people to get them to stick in the business.

6. Does the group require ongoing participation of people who have already mastered the work to the extent of actively recruiting new customers? Do these people provide time consuming free salesmanship for the organization? If so, ask them why they choose to do this. (And watch for repetitive key phrases again or an irrational zeal.)

7. Does the group place heavy emphasis on a specific (rigid higher, or holier) authority figure guru, leader, teacher? Is such emphasis built into the atual work process? Can authority be challenged? Does the group provide ample opportunity to question the methods, techniques, theories of work or does it have an implicit attitude of we know shat is best for you?
A
Authority figures holier than thou Murray Larry Paul. Someone's owner. Never question or reinvent their precious system with its 5 & 8.

8. Can you observe any negative techniques, especially in the beginning exercised or instructions? These might include obvious personal insults, put downs, tearing-down of egos or less obvious of giving orders, bullying, threatening and general reinforcement of diminished sense of self.

A
Watch dissenters get fired, belittled and discredited!

9. Does the process involve any severe physical discomfort or pain? Mental or emotional pain?
A
Yeah. Going door to door to rip people off. Regret for having trained people to waste their time with this business.

10. Is hypnosis part of the process without being fully acknowledged as such?

11. Does any aspect of the work go against a personal belief conviction, or religious concept? If so, are your feelings respected?

12. Does the process project an air of mystery, secrecy of things not explained? Are you instructed or encouraged to do any work you do not fully understand (including chanting in another language without adequate translation)?

A
You Only get told a bit at a time about the company until they have you hooked.
13. Is there any responsible assessment or screening process of each applicant's physical, emotional, and mental state before admission? Or is money the only prerequisite to doing the work?
A
None. They only want people that can sell.

14. How do you feel about the people participating? Do they seem intelligent, balanced, thoughtful, aware? Or is there an underlying mood of desperation, or an apparent inability or unwillingness to think things over?

A
Pity. They are stuck. They are committed. To admit it is all wrong is humbling. It is like a gambler who gets a good machine once in a while. Once in a while these guys have a good day in the field or actually retain a good guy. And then famine forever. It is a disease.

15. Does the group tacitly discourage members from continuing close relationships with nonconverts and encourage members to recruit everyone in their lives?
A
You should not associate with anyone that might discourage you from being in the business. Personal recruiting is a big plus!

16. Is any form of intimidation of dominance over others encouraged by the work?

17. Does the group place emphasis on affiliations with celebrities, politicians , industry?
A
You should here how they promote that they work with clients like the Yankees, Pizza hut, Papa Johns, Sprint, DTV, AT&T, Stamps.com, Staples and many others.

These questions are used by some people to determine if a group is a cult. The answers are my person responses with regard to dsmax.

I was in this group for a while. No more. Got real caught up in it. Tried to be the first there every morning and the last to leave. Changed offices. Trained alot of guys. Ran a lot of impacts and meetings. Took my crew out for food. Saw the list of the syptoms of a cult. There you go! Think about this if you are sunk into DS-max.

If you check many of these items, and particularly if you check most of them, you might consider examining the group more closely. Keep in mind that this checklist is meant to stimulate thought, not "diagnose" groups.

1. The group is focused on a living charismatic leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
2. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
3. The group is preoccupied with making money.
4. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
5. Mind-numbing techniques (for example: meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group or its leader(s).
6. The group's leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel.
7. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
8. The group has a polarized, "we-they" mentality that causes conflict with the wider society.
9. The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, clergy with mainstream denominations).
10. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means (for example: collecting money for bogus charities) that members would have considered unethical before joining.
11. The group's leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to
control them.
12. Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with
family, friends, and personal pre-group goals and interests.
13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only w
ith other group members.

I believe that the group I was in fits many of the above criteria.

Number 1 can apply to a) emulating the owner and b) adoration of VP's and success stories in atmosphere and gatherings.
#2 ANY way possible they try and recruit. You are praised big time if you personally recruit - but to advertise in papers - you can only tell an applicant half truths to get them to try the business out.
#3 Definately!
#4 Yes! Especially if you influence others to dissent!
#5 Each office has at least 5 chants.
#6 It starts with them preaching about attitude. To make money, you act like your trainer and pitch and get sales. Problem is - if you are modeling someone - you take on the good and bad charicteristics.
#7 Yes! They are rhinos out for financial indepedence doing the things no one wants to do so that they can be filthy rich and have great lives.
#8 Yes! Cows are ofdinary people that get fired and layed off. Rhinos have contempt for them.
#9 True!
#10 Going door to door. Signing up people for things that are not necessarily to their benefit. I could go on...
#11 All the nagging I got if I did not work Saturdays, didn't extra mile, didn't want to train everyday, didn't want to be the last to leave...
#12 Yes. All or nothing. Break ties with all who might want you to quit.
#13 Yes. Work 6 days a week. spend Sunday chatting with your crew to keep them in the business. Arrive early in the morning to open up. Wait forever for atmosphere and meetings to start. Work like a dog door to door 10 hours. Come back, settle the new people up first. Clean and close the office. (Even though you might not have made any money that day). Who has time to cook dinner?
#14 Partial. Your not required to live with each other - though it usually works out that way. You only want to be socializing with positive attitude people. So if someone in the group is negative - you don't want to socialize with that person.

GLAD I AM OUT!

Dear Mitchell,

You are the type of person I hate to do this to the most. That is because you have spent so much time in the field. I can really identify with that.

You'll notice that I never mention my owners. That is because I like them.

But I recognize that it is the Whole DS-Max system that hurts so many people. That is why I attack IT.

In my time I saw a lot of examples of Bad owner ship, both in offices I was briefly a part of and those that I visited. My information is all first hand.

The amount of people that get hurt by your system is appalling and that is why I protest it.

1) People on my crew that I led and ended up hurt by bad people in the business. Or people on my crew that I influenced to stay in the business that should never have stayed because I was too caught up in getting promoted.

2) Campaigns that I was on where I ended up unknowingly ripping people off.

3) The distancing of my family that happened because I wouldn't listen when They asked me to quit. You tell us all to not pay attention to people that try and tell us to get out!

Hello everyone. I just happened to stumble on this site. I have been with DS-Max for over 3 and a half years now. I started with the company when I was 20 years old, taking a semester off from college (a pretty prestigious college at that).

It took me almost 2 and a half years to become an assistant manager with the company. It is a sad situation that, if some of these stories are true, people had to be put in these circumstances, but in all my time that I have been with a DS-Max/Granton affiliated company, I have NEVER been lied to, cheated, mislead, or 'brainwashed' into doing ANYTHING. Most of these people who have posted something negative worked with a DS-Max affilitated company for nowhere near as long as I have, and keep in mind most of my career thus far was spent in the 'field'.

Yeah the field sucks. Yeah we work long hours, with no benefits. Yeah you do have to sacrifice alot. But in the end, no one is making you stay, and you should know most of this information up front. As a manager (and even as a leader and assistant manager), I encourage people to quit every day. This business is not for everyone. There are other ways to make a living. I do not portray people who cant do our business as 'weak' or as a 'cow'. The reason i don't is because I could care less. Do you think Bill Gates gives two sh*ts if people don't like Microsoft as a company? But don't lump all of us together because you didn't like the particualar office or owner that you worked under.

I have read all of these postings and almost have to laugh at the narrow-mindedness of most of these individuals. Just for the record, DS-Max, Granton Marketing, and Cydcor are not responsible or liable for any of these horror stories. I resent the fact that such a wonderful company that has provided me with so many opportunities, gets dragged through the mud because of a very small group of negged out distributors. I have NEVER AND WILL NEVER lie, cheat, or steal from anyone. I don't do the 'motivational chants'. I don't blackmail people into quitting their jobs. I run a business, that just happens to have it's merchandise consigned to me by Granton Marketing.

How can you catagorize 'owners' a certain way? There are over 12,000 of us ACROSS THE WORLD. Do you mean to say there are 12,000 people who operate, act, and live the SAME WAY?? Do you really believe that everyone has to be a heartless demon to be successful in this company? The business field is full of negative examples (look at Enron and Worldcom), but just because 1 negative example exists, that does not make everyone around that example negative. Have you ever had a cold or late pizza? Did you go balistic and post reports all over the internet about how that pizza chain is evil? No, I'm sure you didn't. Just because the local francisee of the pizza chain gave you bad service, does not mean every pizza store within that company sucks. To anyone reading this who may currently be in a DS-Max afflitated office, or considering a position at one, all that I can tell you to do is have an open mind and ask objective questions.

Just like Lauren said,"From an honest good heart to another... Be forwarned about this experience, take from this what you will. Everyone has choices in life, I hope you make the right one."

Don't forget to join DS-Max The AfterMath at MSN groups...

Great report Lauren.

The only way people are going to know about these scammers is if we speak up.

God bless you.