Complaint Review: Meineke Car Care Center - Indianapolis Indiana

In all fairness, I will respond..

"Stop saying leaks are normal. I never said it was illegal to top off. It can be done, but still requires the use of the MACHINE. Even the EPA recommends doing it correctly by recovering and evacuating first. I know what section 609 says. I actually do this stuff for a living. You don't."

I may not do this for a living, but I can read. Now correct if the system REQUIRES an evac and recovery the proper equipment and certifications are needed. However the EPA is aware that the customer can have the system topped off. Here is a direct quote from the EPA website under "recharging your car's air conditioner"..

"Some technicians may tell you that evacuation and

recharge is better for the system than a mere top-off

because, after the refrigerant is evacuated, it gets

cleaned in the recycling equipment, and it's a good idea

to clean the refrigerant in your system. There is, in

fact, no reason to clean the refrigerant in your system

unless you open up the system. If you request that your

technician repair or replace system components in order

to fix leaks in your system, then he will need to open

the system and should recycle the refrigerant."
"Leakage is not normal. The system was apparently empty, so I would call it a serious leak. And no, you are not correct. There is no real debate. Leaks are not normal, and should be fixed. "

We do know it took 3 cans. We do not know the weight of the cans this mechanic used. We do not know the make and model of the vehicle so we do not know the  systems capacity. We do know the vehicle is a 2002, so this could be a slow leak occurring over 8 years. As I stated, the author will certainly find out if this leak is significant if the system stops blowing cold in a short time.

As far as leakage being normal or not, it is really an opinion at this point. I mean how do we know you are a better expert then other experts? I only know from my personal experience that I have added refrigerant myself to systems that were low and turning off the compressor, and the system worked fine after that for the rest of the vehicles usable life. And since I did most of my resto work back when I was living in south Florida, the AC systems saw constant use, day and night almost year round.


"You've gone from 5 ounces/year down to 1-2 ounces. Either that, or you're adding 1-2 ounces to your original 5 for a total of 6-7 ounces. In most systems, that loss would shut off the compressor and fans."

The statement regarding the 5 ounces is what I told can be considered normal. The 1-2 ounce is specifically regarding what I was told was normal to lose from the seals and  schreader valves even on a new system which is tighter. Regardless if a top off can save someone over a thousand dollars and keep the system blowing cold for 5 years or greater, they don't really care if its 1 oz or 5 oz..they care that they weren't ripped off.

In the previous post I referred to the DuPont Freon as R22, it is actually R12. Although there is R22 and many other numbers, this discussion is regarding automotive Freon and refrigerants, which before freon use was phased out for automobiles, was R12, not R22. Just trying to be accurate.

Lets not make too big a deal out of this.

 Yes I am not certified in AC repair, but I am ASE certified and have been restoring cars for years. I do almost all my own mechanical work including engine rebuilds so I am not just some wannabee.

I see it this way. If the top off lasts 6,7 years..why replace the compressor now?

I also agree that if someone has a bad leak and they try to fix it with stop leak or keep topping it off, this is excessive and will eventually cost more in the long run.

The reason I say leakage/loss can be considered a normal occurrence is because this is what I learned from other AC experts..not just mechanics that stand to make a lot more money repairing leaks and replacing compressors.

As far as nit picking what freon is...it is basically the CFC refridgerant R22 which was phased out by the EPA. Now many refer to all refrigerant as "freon" like they call a tissue "Kleenex" but this is not technically correct. Although DuPont was the maker of freon R22, R134a is considered an ALTERNATIVE to freon..whether a DuPont brand or not.

Don't believe me? Do an internet search for "what is freon" and argue it with a pro. I don't seem to know anything..right?

What is freon...

"DuPont and other chemical companies have developed alternatives to Freon which are safe for use as refrigerants. "

Lets not make too big a deal out of this.

 Yes I am not certified in AC repair, but I am ASE certified and have been restoring cars for years. I do almost all my own mechanical work including engine rebuilds so I am not just some wannabee.

I see it this way. If the top off lasts 6,7 years..why replace the compressor now?

I also agree that if someone has a bad leak and they try to fix it with stop leak or keep topping it off, this is excessive and will eventually cost more in the long run.

The reason I say leakage/loss can be considered a normal occurrence is because this is what I learned from other AC experts..not just mechanics that stand to make a lot more money repairing leaks and replacing compressors.

As far as nit picking what freon is...it is basically the CFC refridgerant R22 which was phased out by the EPA. Now many refer to all refrigerant as "freon" like they call a tissue "Kleenex" but this is not technically correct. Although DuPont was the maker of freon R22, R134a is considered an ALTERNATIVE to freon..whether a DuPont brand or not.

Don't believe me? Do an internet search for "what is freon" and argue it with a pro. I don't seem to know anything..right?

What is freon...

"DuPont and other chemical companies have developed alternatives to Freon which are safe for use as refrigerants. "

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There is no service manual anywhere that specifies a "normal" amount of freon loss. If freon is missing, it is due to a leak. Does your refrigerator normally lose freon? What about the A/C at your house? I replaced the A/C system(all of it) on my 1991 Daytona 4 years ago. It hasn't lost any freon. The same with my 1998 Chrysler. And it hasn't lost any since either. I have a customer with a 1965 Pontiac Bonneville. His still works fine, and has not been serviced since it left the factory.

Three cans? This means the OP went to a shop that did the recharge illegally. By Federal Law, the shop MUST use a R-R-R machine. The typical can contains 14 oz total weight, consisting of about 12 oz freon, and 2 oz oil. That would equal 36 oz of freon, and 6 oz oil. Right there you can see the shop the OP is happy with is the one who really scammed him/her. The manufacturer specifies a total amount of both for a reason. The typical system carries no more than 8 oz total oil charge. The 2nd shop just effectively doubled that. The systems also carry on average about 1.5 pounds of freon. The 2nd shop somehow managed to go far above that. The 2nd shop did not(could not) do what the OP was charged for.

The first shop did not sell the job correctly. The 2nd shop ripped the OP off.  

Number one, the OP mentions "freon". Since 1993 cars have been outfitted with systems that use R134a refrigerant and not freon. Freon is a CFC and the EPA did not want the stuff around anymore to melt the ozone.

Number two, yes, technically we can say there must be some refrigerant leaking, but the question here is did this "leak" require a new compressor and expense and unnecessary diagnoses, or simply a top off?

Regardless of this leak being small enough to considered a "normal" leak, or a leak that requires much concern or attention the EPA would still not "require" the system to be "repaired", in other words a "top off" would be acceptable. (go to http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/recharge.html for more info).

Now of course a system that is leaking excessive "freon" would not be considered good for the environment, but the price of it is so high, and it can be difficult to get in some states..that I would agree a leak would make sense to address even more so, due to the wasting of such a valuable substance. An excessive leak of R12 freon would get real expensive, real fast. As far as 134a, not nearly as expensive as freon, but an excessive leak should be addressed not only due to cost, but running the system for extended peroids low on it can cause compressor damage since the refrigerant contains lubricants which keep the compressor cooled. And this is why compressor will automatically shut off if the pressure is too low. It is a feature designed to help save the compressor in the event of low or no refrigerant in the system.

However, bear in mind that what I am considering here as a "normal" leak or loss, would require a top off approx every 6-7 years, or more. Now since the vehicle in question is a 2002 model, it was blowing cold for 8 years. Now if this leak is serious, the poster will certainly know because it will lose refrigerant and stop blowing cold in a short time. If I am correct, and the second shop that did the top off and second "diagnosis", it will take another 6,7 or 8 years or so before it can be legitimately debated.

As far as "stop leak" I do not know where that was mentioned in the report, but some refrigerants do contain it which can plug up pin hole leaks and not do any further damage. But if the system down the road ever needs an evac, simply inform the technician and they will clean it out before a recharge. Putting straight stop leak into an AC system to fix an abnormal leak would not be wise, but since the vehicle we are discussing in this report apparently does not have an abnormal leak, and there is no mention of needing or using any stop leak, it is a moot point.

Now although these are considered "sealed" systems, refrigerant systems leak from the day they are new. Especially with a CCOT system GM uses their high side where pressures are around 225psi on a cold day. TXV systems Toyota, Nissan and GM sometimes use have high side pressures around 180. R134a refrigerant typically runs a higher head pressure and tends to leak out quicker from high side leaks than freon (R12). Refrigerant systems will also leak more with R134a since it has smaller molecules then R12 freon. 

Newer systems are tighter and leak less than older ones, which may lose up to several ounces of refrigerant a year. After five or six years of service it's not unusual for the system to need some additional refrigerant. Seals and schreader valves will leak about 1-2oz. of refrigerant a year so a 5 year old or greater vehicle needing a recharge is really not so unheard of. If the system is requiring recharges every year for example, this would be considered abnormal and it would be wise at that point to have the system accuratly diagnosed and repaired.

(((Redacted)))
"From time to time the A/C system needs to be recharged to bring it back up to maximum efficiency."






CLICK here to see why Rip-off Report, as a matter of policy, deleted either a phone number, link or e-mail address from this Report.

except for the fact that the author mentions this at the end of the report..and  I quote...

" I went for diagnosis to a different car care center, and they iidentified no leak and it was only the cost of 3 cans of Freon (R134a) and nominal labour charge. My car's A\C is working fine now."

Now the reason I say "to a point" is because you seem to be implying that it is not a normal condition for AC systems to lose pressure or leak a little over time. If this was true I would back up your reply, but it is not true. AC systems can and DO lose pressure and can leak some over time, and it is considered normal. And topping off of the system is legal, appropriate and obviously fixed this posters problem.

Now if the first shop had tried to add refrigerant and it was leaking out all over the place, that certainly would be considered a successful diagnosis of a leak that requires addressing, and the charges would be justified. But this was NOT the case here if the report is accurate.

If there was no leak, where did the freon go? It is NOT normal for A/C systems to require adding freon, ever. If freon is gone, it leaked out.

Fix the leak, and then recharge.

The only way to diagnose the system is with at least enough freon in the system to operate the compressor and cooling fan(s). That's not FREE. The dye is usually in the freon already, so there is a bit of overselling when they "add dye".

You were jacked some, but to expect them to add freon for FREE(for the purpose of diagnosing) is silly. I've had cars come in and watched as the freon being added to diagnose simply sprayed out. Stopping the machine cuts off the flow of freon, but does not recover the freon that sprayed out. It's not FREE. For FREE, you would have simply been told the compressor and fans do not operate, and there will be an extra charge($$) to diagnose why.

Stop leaks damage A/C systems, and will void warrantees if it's discovered in a system. I had to put $500 worth of prefilters on my machine to prevent that crap from damaging it. 

What would have been the right thing for them to do, is check the system for leaks free as per the ad for the performance test..which could be a pressure test. They did not need the dye to determine there is a leak... the dye is used to determine where the leak is at once a leak has been diagnosed. So unless they informed you before they did the dye test there would be a charge for this, they may have broken the law.

But since it turns out you did not have a leak anyhow, and did not need a compressor, it is apparent this muffler shop you went to is either not qualified to check for AC leaks, or they are a blatant rip off.

Good scam actually, lure people in for a "free" AC test, charge them 133 bucks for a dye test, and then try to sell them a new compressor as well. And all the systems need is a recharge. Yes, seems to be the case.

Some "experts" who don't know squat may reply that you had a leak since the refrigerant was low when you came into the shop, or that it is not legal to top off the system if it was low.

Poppycock. What many do not know it that over a period of time, all air conditioners will lose or leak out some refrigerant. Even in systems that are in good condition. On average, an AC system could lose up to 5 ounces of refrigerant a year and this would be considered a normal condition.Your vehicle is a 2002 model so good chance this was a normal condition and you were simply being set up. The second car care center you went to did the right thing, and was honest and ethical. Stick with that place from now on and recommend it to others.

And it is fully legal and acceptable to top off the refrigerant if it is low, a simple internet search to any EPA or environmental automotive law website will verify that, in case someone wishes to dispute the fact.

Just for starters, leak detector dye cant be effective unless the system has sufficient charge to develop refrigerant circulation.  If they didnt put any R134a in the system, the leaking compressor diagnosis was pulled out of their.well, you know.

.

These franchised muffler shops - turned we fix anything businesses are absolutely the premier way of getting screwed. Just about anyone owning a car has at least one friend who is more knowledgeable than the best staff member in the aforementioned shops.  Bottom line, their only real expertise is usually getting into your wallet with such inaccurate, deceptive diagnosis.