Complaint Review: Pep Boys - El Cajon California

Tech1, it seems we are in agreement overall but the debate was over the double charge for the same test..first one being not just inconclusive..but dead wrong.

We all know there are butchers out there that are not qualified to do electrical work..or anything else for that matter. And yes..even dealerships.

I have had dealerships send problems to me they could not find..which required nothing more then skill with a basic DMM to conduct a current draw test.

I have also seen the dealer blame aftermarket equipment for causing a problem with no diagnosis performed, and the problem turned out to be totally unrelated.

I have seen the dealerships reassemble door panels and other panels in vehicles leaving out screws and clips and weather shields etc.

I have also seen very poor stereo and alarm installs that did cause problems with the vehicle..which does take someone of our caliber to diagnose and fix.

But the meat of this report has to do in my opinion with overcharging the customer and not taking responsibility when you misquote a job price and time frame due to lack of experience or knowledge of the vehicle you are working on. The customer should not have to pay for that at any shop.

It is exactly what you have said in your post and my own use in the past of this website to bring awareness to fraud... that gave life to my company named BeAutoWise (no spaces). It is live and on location-in person based when it comes to the support part. It's like having a family member in the service business go with you and watch your back. The fraud protection is in the form of pre-service or pre-purchase inspection and they deal with the shop for you so they can't pull any bs. It's really pretty cool.

I know This is a Jeep I know It is easy to use a multimeter to check a charging system. I have not been saying you two don't know what you are talking about. I have read both of you give accurate ways on checking a charging system. In Jim's first post It would work on 90-99% of all cars but it was not 100% complete, IE on making a load and increasing the RPM's like he has said in other posts.

But lets face the facts this is PEP BOYS If they had the caliber techs of Jim, You or me they would not be working their. Ronny I wish I was better at typing, but I have somethings that I don't have skills at yet. You may Do great electrical work but for every one of you their is 100 more that are butchers. I have seen alarm systems that look like they have been vomited wires to install an alarm I have had Lo jack Cut the MOST wires. I have seen they use an injector wire as a ground for their after market #$^@. If you want quality work done you go to a quality Tech.

Now as to talking to customers I have no problem Talking to them and helping them understand their car. The last man I dealt with Refused to believe it was his MP3 CD  I had 4 test MP3 CDs that worked fine in his car his CDs Would not work in any other car He still said "See All the other cars are defective". He worked with sound systems as his job for "20 years" so I didn't know what i was doing. I had another that a major service was done on his car. he claimed that the A/C stopped working it was 105 and his air was blowing in the 40's he started using profanity at may then he got his bat out and said if I don't fix his A/C he would Kill me ?!?!?!?!? 60% of my customers is like this.

I am sorry this person had a crappy time with Pep Boys. These people don't know much about cars and lack in the training department. I suggested my mother get her battery checked at one of these places because over the phone it sounded like a battery( I'm 2,000 miles away). they tested the batter with the engine running and said nothing is wrong with you battery or charging system. So I told her to go to a dealer it was a battery.

"But I stand my ground..if a shop promotes ASE certification, the mechanics should have current certification"

I agree 100% if they have this advertised. they don't advertise this at most German car dealers they have internal certifications (wich is just as weak as ASE). Now passing ASE's is very easy And through it around to make you look taller means nothing to other techs. I could have been a master a year after starting but It dose not increases you pay where I work It is not advertised even if you were a master Audi or VW tech I dose not increases your pay. It is based on what you do.

"I mean do you remove the alternator any time someone comes in for a charging system diagnosis??"

Many times on an Audi you do they have two to three types of alternators and to even look on the back of the alternator you have to remove it. the one I had that had a wire chewed was on a V8 and to even touch the plug on a 2.0 or a 1.8 you don't have to I did say on "some cars" you had to remove th alternator.

This report is regarding a Jeep. I will agree with you 1000% that when certain late model German vehicles pull up, I am well aware the cost to diagnose may go up. But I can still use a meter at the battery to determine if the battery is receiving a charge, and perform a current draw test if necessary. There is NO reason to charge more for this. However if I want to test the field or idiot light and could not easily access it from the back of the alternator, I use the Mitchell book and test at the wires elsewhere. I have never had to pull an alternator just to check it but regardless, and rarely do I see late model Audis have a charging system issue but I can grant you if it is inconclusive what the problem is from a basic test and the alternator absolutely required pulling, then of course the labor rate goes up..no dispute there,

"have seen one wire alternators on hot rods..but most factory just have 3"

I have not worked on one or two wire systems on Audi and VW they use two wire system.

Once again, I was not thinking I was discussing just VW and Audi, but alternators in general.

"what good are they if the mechanics are not current?"

When is ASE something currant? you stay currant by studying and READING TSB's not by taking tests that get updated every ten to fifteen years. I study on the vehicles I work on at least one hour every day. I stay up to date on the latest tips on unusual failures and help on the diagnosis on the new vehicles and scan tool bugs. I have one to two comebacks every year for the last four years. still trying to reduce this. My come back this year was a bolt I didn't tighten which is the first time i have had a loose bolt.

We all have to do this these days, the technology changes with the seasons. But I stand my ground..if a shop promotes ASE certification, the mechanics should have current certification of it is false advertising..at the very least deception. In my field I have to remain current on more then the ASE and require re testing every two to four years. Anyone could leave a bolt loose...Master or back yard...but who is going to understand the systems more..the back yarder or the certified tech? I can agree there are some uncertified techs that are better then some who are certified, but if you are not certified take the patch off.

"I am one on one with my customers."

You have that amount of time however not everyone has the time to talk to a customer for an hour and a half after closing to explain that their MP3 CD wont play because the Disc is scratched(I had to get the customer to leave by saying I have to go home.

It does not take me an hour and a half to do anything. I can spend a few minutes with my customers and that little bit of extra service makes them feel special and earns trust. That is how you grow a business and a reputation. And of course by charging a FAIR price and doing it right the first time..not guessing and charging the customer additional for the mechanics screw-ups.

"I mean do you remove the alternator any time someone comes in for a charging system diagnosis??"

Many times on an Audi you do they have two to three types of alternators and to even look on the back of the alternator you have to remove it. the one I had that had a wire chewed was on a V8 and to even touch the plug on a 2.0 or a 1.8 you don't have to I did say on "some cars" you had to remove th alternator.

"have seen one wire alternators on hot rods..but most factory just have 3"

I have not worked on one or two wire systems on Audi and VW they use two wire system.

"what good are they if the mechanics are not current?"

When is ASE something currant? you stay currant by studying and READING TSB's not by taking tests that get updated every ten to fifteen years. I study on the vehicles I work on at least one hour every day. I stay up to date on the latest tips on unusual failures and help on the diagnosis on the new vehicles and scan tool bugs. I have one to two comebacks every year for the last four years. still trying to reduce this. My come back this year was a bolt I didn't tighten which is the first time i have had a loose bolt.

"I am one on one with my customers."

You have that amount of time however not everyone has the time to talk to a customer for an hour and a half after closing to explain that their MP3 CD wont play because the Disc is scratched(I had to get the customer to leave by saying I have to go home.

.and in reality..we all have "brain farts" or bad days.

I was commenting on Jim's vague Diagnosis instructions of

"If it reads 13 1/2 Volts or higher it's working, if it reads lower than 13 Volts it won't charge that 12 Volt battery (Must be a higher voltage to "Pump" against the pressure)"

If the person was an amateur and did not know to increases the R.P.M.'s and turn on the head lights then He may Miss Diagnosis the System If he had just checked Voltage Because a Beetle at Idle will put out 70 Amps at 12.3V how ever when the system got to 12.2 It would bump the voltage to 13.4V.

An alternator does not "put out" 70 amps. An alternator has an amperage rating..which is the max is it can "supply"...but the amperage it puts out depends only on what the current draw is of the devices that are operating. An alternator will have a voltage output regardless of what is operating..unless it is bad. Most alternators will put over 12v at idle..but some do not. Most of the high output alternators I install put out very low voltage at idle..but once you increase the RPMs they can put out 14v or higher under no load. It just depends on the alternator.

"..you can not accurately check this with a standard 12v automotive test light,I stated previously how to do this with a simple basic digital meter,,and that the reason you can NOT test this accurately with a standard automotive "old school" test light..is because the ECM will only put out 5v or so on the check wire..and is usually an low current LED on the dash. How hard is it to stick the probe of a digital meter into the harness then a 12v test light?"

Who is talking about a test light? I was referring to the wire on the alternator that allows it to work correctly It is used to regulate the voltage and if it's not plunged in it wont charge. It may be easy on some cars to check whoever on some cars you have to remove the alternator to check it I never probe a wire I have seen too many hacks mangle wire or they corrode form the middle because of that. I do know you can buy proper test leads to correctly probe wires but why when I have a BOB for most connectors.

I realize you were not talking about a test light. But i could not imagine why you would think it requires any more time then a minute to check the field or idiot light wire. Yes I use special probes but any one who is "qualified" to test a charging system should have this. I mean do you remove the alternator any time someone comes in for a charging system diagnosis?? You know..you can unplug the wires and use a regular probe to test there..no need to hack the insulation.

I have seen one wire alternators on hot rods..but most factory just have 3. The output to battery, the field (which goes to an ignition source in the vehicle) and the idiot light. What is so complicated?

"Oh and not only am I a trained and CERTIFIED technician, I was an instructor and training coordinator and an auto electronics school. Not that I wanted to boast about that here...but I KNOW that I KNOW my business..and will be able to stand my ground against anyone who claims they know what they are talking about..but prove otherwise. "

"I'm an ASE MASTER, are you?"

You should know being certified means nothing( though it is the only thing we have right now). I stopped working for my aster about five years ago I let my five ASE's expire(I renewed them the first month I worked for Lexus but I will let them expire again). Why would I pay $200 to get something that matters nothing to VW/Audi and my customers?

It should matter to your customers. Sure being certified does not prove you are not a hack or a scammer, but it certainly shows you are up to date on the systems you are working on. You are also supposed to get paid more depending on your cert level and I would imagine if the place of employment cared..would require you to keep it up to date, and pay for the test. If you fail, then they should require you to pay for a re test. These places that love to have all the ASE signs and patches on the uniforms etc..what good are they if the mechanics are not current? I would call that false advertising.

"By the way explain please how an optical system transmits electricity?"

"there are no class II data, LAN or fiber optics involved with current charging systems."

I am glade you both know this also. Because I never said The charging system had this. By you understanding these systems you also know how important it is to teach full instructions of testing if you are going to give it on the web.

Not speaking for anyone else, but I only mentioned it as an example that you should understand these systems so if you think an alternator is a generator and start poking it with a test light..you could fry an ECM these days. It does not mean it is any more physical work or time to test it, but that you do not do it the same way anymore, and certainly should understand why.

"Whoever thinks that he(she) can check a charging system just by using a volt meter is not a real trained technician. "

Tree you are wrong It is a very easy way to diagnoses a car with a DMM. Most places yous the midtronics system because the customer will believe the piece of paper more than the tech(even though it is very easy to fool the system). In fact I would say you are not a tech if you don't have a DMM and know how to use it.

I am one on one with my customers. I have them stand next to me while I take the voltage readings. I explain to them that "the meter does not lie"..granted if you know how to use one. It SICKENS me how many so called mechanics are misdiagnosing electrical systems because they have no training on how to use and read a simple DMM.

"No one ever stated it was. I did state is was not necessary to charge the customer this TWICE. "

I would agree however the person agreed to the second $30 charge. Techs can say If you come back I'll not charge a second Diag. however this is not that situation you are dealing with policy that sucks and is rigged

If you read the report over a few times...if everything stated is accurate..it just seems to me at least in this case, the shop did not really have their shite together and certainly over charged and inconvenienced this customer due to their neglect and lack of customer service, skills and parts knowledge. Granted we are only hearing one side, perhaps this shop will respond with theirs?

I was commenting on Jim's vague Diagnosis instructions of

"If it reads 13 1/2 Volts or higher it's working, if it reads lower than 13 Volts it won't charge that 12 Volt battery (Must be a higher voltage to "Pump" against the pressure)"

If the person was an amateur and did not know to increases the R.P.M.'s and turn on the head lights then He may Miss Diagnosis the System If he had just checked Voltage Because a Beetle at Idle will put out 70 Amps at 12.3V how ever when the system got to 12.2 It would bump the voltage to 13.4V.

"..you can not accurately check this with a standard 12v automotive test light,I stated previously how to do this with a simple basic digital meter,,and that the reason you can NOT test this accurately with a standard automotive "old school" test light..is because the ECM will only put out 5v or so on the check wire..and is usually an low current LED on the dash. How hard is it to stick the probe of a digital meter into the harness then a 12v test light?"

Who is talking about a test light? I was referring to the wire on the alternator that allows it to work correctly It is used to regulate the voltage and if it's not plunged in it wont charge. It may be easy on some cars to check whoever on some cars you have to remove the alternator to check it I never probe a wire I have seen too many hacks mangle wire or they corrode form the middle because of that. I do know you can buy proper test leads to correctly probe wires but why when I have a BOB for most connectors.

"Oh and not only am I a trained and CERTIFIED technician, I was an instructor and training coordinator and an auto electronics school. Not that I wanted to boast about that here...but I KNOW that I KNOW my business..and will be able to stand my ground against anyone who claims they know what they are talking about..but prove otherwise. "

"I'm an ASE MASTER, are you?"

You should know being certified means nothing( though it is the only thing we have right now). I stopped working for my aster about five years ago I let my five ASE's expire(I renewed them the first month I worked for Lexus but I will let them expire again). Why would I pay $200 to get something that matters nothing to VW/Audi and my customers?

"By the way explain please how an optical system transmits electricity?"

"there are no class II data, LAN or fiber optics involved with current charging systems."

I am glade you both know this also. Because I never said The charging system had this. By you understanding these systems you also know how important it is to teach full instructions of testing if you are going to give it on the web.

"Whoever thinks that he(she) can check a charging system just by using a volt meter is not a real trained technician. "

Tree you are wrong It is a very easy way to diagnoses a car with a DMM. Most places yous the midtronics system because the customer will believe the piece of paper more than the tech(even though it is very easy to fool the system). In fact I would say you are not a tech if you don't have a DMM and know how to use it.

"No one ever stated it was. I did state is was not necessary to charge the customer this TWICE. "

I would agree however the person agreed to the second $30 charge. Techs can say If you come back I'll not charge a second Diag. however this is not that situation you are dealing with policy that sucks and is rigged

...but I can take it a step further. The optical lines (which are actually small "tubes" where light is transmitted), use a D/A converter to translate the digital codes to analog.

But there is more then one reason for this..other then weight savings/cost savings. The high powered audio systems (and video/GPS) are susceptible to "noise" via induction. The fiber optics eliminate this as they are unaffected by stray magnetic fields due to induction.

Problem is..that in the case of working with these systems..you can not use a DMM to determine anything. I can not tell you how many systems in the vehicle are operating off the same fiber optics in let's say a new Benz, Audi, Porsche etc.

But one thing I do know..I can use a meter to check if the charging system is working or not, as you seem to agree. If I choose to except a job of for example...allowing the GPS screen in a new Porsche Cayenne to be come a reverse camera or video viewing screen, I certainly have a lot of software issues to deal with. But why anyone would claim you can't use a DMM to check an alternator..is beyond me. And may be the reason why so many consumers feel ripped off.

I can not count how many customers come to me stating the dealer blamed the alarm or A/V system for draining the battery..when it took me less then 10 minutes to accurately determine...that yes..a battery does NOT last forever..and does require replacement. And if I find the charging system is not charging..it is really not too difficult for me to show the customer that the voltage readings are not increasing when the vehicle is running..therefore we need to diagnose the charging system...ONE TIME...not 2 or 3 or 4 or weeks or days...ONE TIME. One CHARGE.

If the alternator and battery check out (not that difficult)..I then quote for a current draw test. I explain to the customer that if anything we did is determined to be the cause of the excessive draw..we will cover it. But if not..they are expected to pay such and such and hour for diagnosis..and will be NOTIFIED if any repairs are required, and be given a fair accurate estimate. Not  "guess", not a "crap shoot", but a professional estimate by someone who understands completely what they are dealing with.

If you're a real tech, why don't you know what we're doing.

Seems you should start listening and learning, not Bitching and doubting, YES an oscilloscope is a valuable tool, But unless you suspect a burned diode (Rare) Unneeded.

A digital voltmeter will be ten times faster and as accurate IF YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT.

Is that the problem?

I'm an ASE MASTER, are you?

By the way explain please how an optical  system transmits electricity?

(For those Non mechanics reading this, it doesn't, it transmits light only.)

..the "diode" test.

This is also "old school" thinking. Alternators these days have internal regulators and rectifiers. In most cases it is simpler and more cost effective to simply change out the alternator if the rectifier is bad..rather then replace or rebuild the rectifier.

Now in certain situations (since I also do custom work) I have used extremely high output alternators which utilized external regulators, and sometimes external rectifiers..since the diodes are physically too large to fit inside the alternator. Regardless..it STILL does not take any more then a DMM to determine which link in the charging system chain is bad. I do at times use a scope to check the ripple current, but this again is in cases of custom high output charging systems..not anything you would find in a stock late model Chevy, Ford, Audi, BMW, Mercedes etc.

Now to Tech1...

I believe you do know the difference between an alternator and a generator..but you did use the term generator..so I had to assume you may be old school. I have to deal day in and out with data bus, LAN and fiber optics (primarily the German M.O.S.T. systems), which fortunately good friends of mine in the industry have designed interfaces that make it simple for me to integrate with these systems. But, I still have to understand them, and deal with them..or face being fraudulently blamed for voiding warranties. If you do not know the ins and outs of ALL these systems...you do not belong in the industry.

But regardless, there are no class II data, LAN or fiber optics involved with current charging systems. They are still as elementary as they were since the days of Henry Ford tinkering with the horseless carriage. DC electronic principles have not changed..and the charging systems are still operating on 12v DC systems. I still require nothing more then a DMM to test if the charging system is charging or not. And I need no more then a basic DMM to determine why the charging system is not charging if this is the case.

I agree with you that if they had changed the alternator and it did not fix the problem..they would have been screwed. But in this case the second trip to the shop concluded it was the alternator..so why not just change the alternator and call it a day? If it really was this intense complicated process and special equipment and training required to conclude the alternator is bad..I could understand the second diagnostics charge. But since I believe I have proven it is a quick simple test..and no one has proven otherwise..I do not see why they needed to charge twice for diagnostics.

We all know about the Ford EGR issue where the code reader has lead to replacing the wrong part. But it is not the same as measuring the alternator for output. It does not require deciphering codes or extensive knowledge or troubleshooting to test for voltage output.

Sometimes in this business..we have to eat a little gruff..it is called R & D...so the ethical mechanics might choose to eat this and use the learning process to better themselves and to give a better estimate before assuming they know the issue if further diagnostics is required.

The less ethical shops charge this to the customers..and when they are wrong charge the customer again..and just keep replacing parts as a crap shoot hoping it will eventually be fixed. This is not good for the industry, and I think you agree.

..that some of these replies are being made by anyone with training in modern auto electronics systems or troubleshooting.

First a $30 charge for charging system check is not a Ripoff.  

No one ever stated it was. I did state is was not necessary to charge the customer this TWICE.

Whoever thinks that he(she) can check a charging system just by using a volt meter is not a real trained technician. 

I do not "think" I can check a charging system with a volt meter..I KNOW I can. If the voltage increases then stabilizes after the car is running..what does that conclude?

If the voltage does not increase after starting, and RPM increase...what does that conclude. What more is needed then a simple basic DMM to check this?

Oh and not only am I a trained and CERTIFIED technician, I was an instructor and training coordinator and an auto electronics school. Not that I wanted to boast about that here...but I KNOW that I KNOW my business..and will be able to stand my ground against anyone who claims they know what they are talking about..but prove otherwise.

A voltage check with a volt meter will not tell you how good is your charging system.

It doesn't???? See the previous reply.

A load test and diode test and other test (like belt, PCM control, etc..) are needed to show the whole picture.

A load test is used to determine the condition of the BATTERY..not the charging system. Once the vehicle is running..the ENTIRE load is placed on the alternator/charging system...which also has to be able to charge the battery. 

As far as belts...(taking into consideration most cars these days use serpentine)..what diagnostic equipment is required to determine if a belt is slipping?

PCM is the Power control module..or as I mentioned previously, the ECM (engine control module)..this stuff is not a mystery or science fiction, nor does it take ANY longer or any more difficulty to test the charging system. I stated previously how to do this with a simple basic digital meter,,and that the reason you can NOT test this accurately with a standard automotive "old school" test light..is because the ECM will only put out 5v or so on the check wire..and is usually an low current LED on the dash. How hard is it to stick the probe of a digital meter into the harness then a 12v test light? ANSWER: it is NOT any harder..you just have to know what you are testing for.

Also should mention..you can do damage to the ECM, BCM and other circuits by using an incandescent test light. A meter has a very high internal resistance and will not harm these systems....provided the user knows what they are doing.

Second as of today Audi and BMW

still use the term Generator in their factory service manual for model year 2011.

Irrelevant. We are NOT in Germany..nor do we speak German in this country..nor do we call the hood a "bonnet", nor do we call the trunk a "boot", nor do we call cigarettes "fags", nor do we call a 1/4 pounder a "Royal".

We know as educated experienced mechanics and CERTIFIED auto electronics specialists..what the definition of a "generator" is, vs an alternator. Do you need me to explain it? If you already know..you should have got this correct on your certification test and do not require me to explain it here.

I would like to add some of my though.

First a $30 charge for charging system check is not a Ripoff.  Whoever thinks that he(she) can check a charging system just by using a volt meter is not a real trained technician.  A voltage check with a volt meter will not tell you how good is your charging system.  A load test and diode test and other test (like belt, PCM control, etc..) are needed to show the whole picture.

Second as of today Audi and BMW still use the term Generator in their factory service manual for model year 2011.

That I'm not saying that They were not riped off All I was saying was that you do need to be careful with the Diagnosis because the unusual will bite you More often than you want it to. So that test that Jim said will work on about 90-99% of the cars no problem. But the O-Crap bug always bites in this business. I will try not to use the words that our warranty requires us to use but I do tend to use both. Just like Fords EGO sensors(O2 sensor).

sorry about their terminology VW/Audi Use Generator not Alternator Just like they use cigar lighter not cigarette lighter. I'm not "Old School" I acutely have 6 years experience as a Tech Mostly in Diagnosis this includes the CAN, LIN, and Fiber optic lines. Though I do work on every part of the car.

My point is If they payed the fee and they said it passed the test and recommended an Alternator and it didn't fix the car they still would be blamed on this web site

I stated in my reply and I quote.."Granted..if a customer comes in requesting diagnosis of the charging system..the shop has a reasonable right and expectation to charge something."

However in this report, the OP states the problem was intermittent and they had already charged $30.00 to check it. Test said it was fine.

The next day the alternator was acting up again and the SAME GUY determined it was "without a doubt" the alternator and wanted to charge the $30.00 again.

Granted it is not the mechanics fault the problem was intermittent, but it is also not the fault of the customer. They could have replaced it and one diagnostic fee would be sufficient.

The fact that they bumbled a job and told the customer up to 2 hours, used the wrong alternator when only one size fits the jeep, and charged more then a dealership...I'd have to conclude if this report is accurate, the mechanic is suspect.

Now as far as your issue with the rat chewing wires and the wakeup check...I can already tell you are "old school" just by the fact that you used the term "generator". I do not believe generators were used in cars since the 1950's early 1960s on most cars.

So this leads me to assume (although I could be wrong), that you use "old school" techniques such as an incandescent test light to test this. You can not reliably do this anymore. Many newer vehicles no longer use a regular light bulb on the dash board for the charging system check..so you won't read the ground through a test light. They use low current LEDs. Many utilize a signal from the ECM..which can be as low as 5v..you can not accurately check this with a standard 12v automotive test light, it most likely will not light it up. We use a digital meter to test this and it takes a second.

It is not anymore difficult or time consuming then previous methods of checking the charging systems..it just requires a digital multimeter (I have expensive ones but a 10 dollar meter can do this), and the knowledge of how to properly use it to test and troubleshoot charging systems.

Why should I do that warranty pays .3 hr This includes the wakeup ckt check. had a customer that their car had a rat chew through the wire that they swore it had to be the generator ( the part store check) but it turned out to be the wakeup ckt being chewed through. that cost them an alternator and the labor.

I know you know your stuff tech1...but be realistic.

Yes...some alternators may not put out much at idle..and this is why during the voltage readings..you have to increase the RPM's.

A standard battery should have a voltage of 12.66v in a perfect world..so let's round it off to 12.5v.

If you place a voltmeter across the battery terminals and start the engine..you look to make sure that the voltage is not decreasing. Then you increase the RPM's. As long as you are reading at least 13.8v (or at the very least the voltage is increased, then stabilized)..it is a pretty safe and reasonable conclusion that the alternator is functioning.

How long does this really take? How much work it is really? How expensive is the  amount of "test" equipment required to do this?

Granted..if a customer comes in requesting diagnosis of the charging system..the shop has a reasonable right and expectation to charge something..but if this report is accurate, I would have to say there was a degree of unjust charges for diagnosis..considering they were WRONG the first time.

Just today I had to deal with a customer who was blaming an immobilizer interface module for a Smart Start my company installed for causing excessive current draw and killing the battery. According to the customer, the dealer and AAA both concluded the battery was good.

The customer drives up..turns off the engine and I take a voltage reading. 10.14 volts. The vehicle will not re start. I jump it and get a reading of 15v once running.

Turn the lights on..15v. Turn vehicle off and let it sit on the charger. Remove charger. Check voltage. Turn on headlights..voltage drops AGAIN to 10.4v in under a minute.

I explain to the customer that everyone else who told him the battery is good....is on crack, heroin or something stronger. Please have the BAD battery replaced and THEN come back to me and I will find out if there is another problem..or if it was simply a bad battery. Imagine that..a 4 year old (at least) spent battery that can not start the vehicle anymore? Who would have thunk? You mean a battery does not last forever???

How do these people have any credentials or qualifications to work on automotive electrical systems when they can not even successfully test a battery..the simplest and most basic step of auto electronics troubleshooting? And checking to see if the alternator has output is not exactly rocket science either.

You would know you need to be careful about that advice on some Lexus and VW cars the charging at idle is 12.5 Volts and this is normal they even had to issue a TSB because techs were using the Volt meter. even if you turn the lights on it may not bump the voltage to 13V.

If you over tighten the band type hose clamp (Say by using a power ratchet) it will slice through the hose right by the clamp, it's a sharp cut and looks like a knife cut, but it's caused by the lazy mechanic and not deliberately.

However they screwed up and owe you a hose, I doubt they'll do anything so don't go there ever again.

How do I know this? Well i bought a nifty new 1/4 inch drive power ratchet, and cut a new hose immediately with it, fortunately the hose was long enough that I could cut the bad end off and re clamp it safely (BY HAND this time.)

As for the alternator, Yup they screwed you, again it looks like incompetence.

By the way, an alternator that shows intermittent charging has worn out the rotor (Field) brushes, it's a simple and fairly cheap repair, simply remove the alternator's rear half (3 or 4 screws) and the entire brush holder removes and replaces easily, (Two screws usually) after reassembly there's a plastic "Toothpick" you pull out and discard, (To allow the brushes to release)and you're good for another 100K or so.

While I'm on the subject of Alternators, that $30 "Checking Fee' is a pure ripoff in itself, all you need to do is put a voltmeter across the battery terminals.

If it reads 13 1/2 Volts or higher it's working, if it reads lower than 13 Volts it won't charge that 12 Volt battery (Must be a higher voltage to "Pump" against the pressure)

If you think of DC (Automotive) Electricity as water flowing through pipes it's much easier to "SEE' what's going on.

the Alternator is a 'PUMP', starter is a "Motor", and a battery is a "Water pressure tank" simple isn't it?