Complaint Review: PAYPAL - Internet

I am sorry, but I have read and tried to understand what might drive the rebuttals that are pro PayPal.  I believe as Americans we have come to expect a certain amount of freedom and ethical business practices.  PayPal has extorted those expectations and our trust. 

I can not begin to read and understand all the small print in their contract.  I just trust that as a business originating in this country and driven by a certain level of business practices and standards they would have an ethical obligation, if not a legal obligation to provide me with due process; by this I mean, consumers have the right to be treated according to the customary standard of business practices that have spurred this country's commerce to a level beyond that of others.  The trust of a consumer to a simple, honest and accurate exchange of product and currency have been a MAJOR factor in that rise to commerce.

My belief is that PayPal has undermined that trust...and has not made a noble effort to rise to the standard of a typical American company....I assume that is because they are a relatively newer type of business that the average consumer did not deal with on a large scale until the internet.  Since, internet commerce has become such a huge factor, more and more shortcomings are being exposed in their business structure and they are not making efforts to become more consumer friendly because the laws in place actually help their financial liability.

I have read numerous accounts of how Paypal has frozen accounts.  I have experienced their unjust, but I suppose legal, practices several times myself.  I am not a merchant...I am a buyer.  I have had money tied up with Paypal unjustly for 6 months.  It was not for anything I did unknowingly or inappropriately.  It was because some dishonest, scheming person decided to try and get a credit returned to him by saying....someone in his office fraudulently credited my account for a refund....or something like that.  I never really quite understood and really could not understand because it was such an unconventional type "backcharge".  It did not make logical sense that such a credit would ever be made; nonetheless, you become victim at the whim of a scammer and their is nothing you can do about it except to wait and pray justice prevails.

My problem with this is that we, as Americans are not use to that practice.  If we call a credit card company or a bank about a problem...we usually get anwers and justice because there are codes of conduct and laws that have been written to protect consumers against these unseemly practices.  Paypal does not heed these and I believe operates under a different business genre.  I think it is a clearing house structure.  All "things" are different under that genre.  So, because Paypal can legally
get away with their anti-consumer practices....they do.  I guess when enough people get wronged by them they will be forced to restructure.

Anyway, my problem is with people like the guy from Honolulu.  He has no empathy and seemingly has an attitude that would suggest communistic roots.  Since his post is 5 years old...at least the one I have read....I would bet that he has probably, by now, had a dispute with Paypal, but maybe not....since he seems to understand and agree with their rules of conduct.  We as Americans, having dealt with credit card companies and banks our entire life do have expectations of companies trying to establish a business under that guise....the problem being, that we assumed they were what they projected to be....but they were and are a "sheep in wolves clothing".

Why would a company freeze/seize your money for selling or purchasing items that they deemed unworthy, but were NOT against the law or illegal!!!! Conventional American Consumer understanding would be that they could NOT....and if they did or if you did something they deemed inappropriate that you would be notified and given a certain amount of time to close your account or it would be canceled.

The federal gov't has only recently gained the power to seize assets of drug dealers, etc....but that is only AFTER BEING CONVICTED AND FOUND GUILTY. 

So, I do not know what country or planet you people come from that announce your support and understanding of the practices....BUT, IT IS NOT AMERICA.  I should only hope that you get the same injustices done to you so you will have some empathy and understanding and will join the fight for righting Paypal's unjust practices; albeit, conveniently legal (supposedly).

But, not only are you flustered by right and wrong....you are completely void of concern.  You are rudely reactionary and without deep thought on a big problem for people who find themselves arbitrarily thrown into this situation.

Reactionary messages and replies to real problems are not productive to resolving the issue or consoling to the damaged individual that is experiencing the injustice.  Granted, some problems are not legitimate and the person might need "tough love" but we do not need reactionary beings from different planets trying to magnify the problem instead of the solution. 

Sorry everyone ,but I agree with the victim here. Paypal does have policies ,which they enforce when they feel like it. I have been told through the grapevine that paypal took this action after a so called tip from another seller who was trying to eliminate his compitition. I have a paypal account and use it for the buying and selling on ebay. Because of the horror stories i have heard ,I keep no funds in the account and use a debit card for purchases. All funds recieved from sales are transferred to my bank a.s.a.p. Back to my point , one of paypals so called policies is PROTECTION. on two seperate occasions i filed a dispute because i had purchased item on ebay and never recieved them. One of the sellers openly admitted to both myself and paypal that he had a drug problem ,and intentionally ripped me off to pay for drugs. the other seller claimed i sent her too many emails requesting the item i paid for ,so she refused to send it. In both instances the seller admitted o theft. paypal had already gotten their transaction fee ,so they did nothing. I posting a policy ,makes it 'their' law , then why don't they also enforce their 'protection' policy? according to info found on the net. ebay and paypal are the two largest revenue producing companies on the web ,so they feel that being the big kids on the block they can do as they want. I wish the victim here all the luck in recovering his funds and also would love to see a class action suit against these internet giants.

Nicholas, you should go back to school since your "glob" of text looks like blahblabhlakjfjakda CRAKC hdajhfdjkafdhjkahd/bkjdahfjkdas Unreadable. as for what could be made out of your diatribe: 1) NO i have no affiliation with Paypal save that I USE them to process payments like the million other users who do so. 2) Paypal is in CALIFORNIA. Last I looked, Im nowhere near Cali. 3) Im not Hawaiian. 4) Why Im arguing? Because the OP wants to whine and cry for SOMETHING he did wrong, and wont own up to his responsibilities. Nicholas, its like someone drinking and driving, causing an accident, then blaming the person he hit at fault. I use "cRack" as an example because its ONE Of the prohibited items that yOU cannot use paypal to purchase with or solicit payments through. Anything more you read into that, maybe you have a problem with that drug of choice? Did I say that my transactions are a full time job. Nicholas, not only you come to the wrong conclusions, you're also delusional. $500 is what I make from things I sell that I make. Meaning, I producer items on comission. Because they take time to make $500 is a supplement to my FULL time job. Get a grip. So what if you were "poverty" stricken for much of your life. I dont give a rats butt that you were. As for the rest of your blog-unreadable-text fest, you know where you can shove it.

Stop, take a breath, and give us an occasional paragraph.

I can't believe this Denny Hawaiian Guy has a nerve to get on here and debate this matter. I also believe he's in some way connected with PayPal. Also does PayPal thinks that by debating this case it would help PayPal in anyway. Please you have been shooting yourself (PayPal)in the foot from a while ago now and it's only a matter of time before PayPal bleeds to death or get a real nasty infection from this shot wound. The only way to help themselves is by going to the hospital to get it taken care of but since PayPal doesn't think that this self inflicted wound won't hurt I can only say that they will die. Ohhh Well what do I care, I don't. As to Denny the Menace all I can say is that you keep refering to CRACK as if you are either a Dealer or a User. I watch TV and all that pops into mind is The TV Show "The Bounty Hunter" with Dog and I must say there are lots of users there and maybe Denny is a User of Crack or Crytal Meth which is the Hawaiians better choice of Drugs. Now I'm a person who has been raised in Poverty and have seen every type of Hustle you can think of in my growing up days but we are in a smaller scale compare to Corporate America the true hustlers of all time. Now if Denny is a small timer of $500 per month transsactions than I hope you have a job because $500 is not much and if you are selling goods than I'd hate to know what your take home profits are. Also on the same token if you are a small timer how can you go against someone who is just like you trying to make it but yet stand next to someone (PayPal)who cares little or nothing about you and one day maybe doing the very same thing to you once your $500 per month increases? There has to be a connection between the Crytal Meth smoker (Denny) and PayPal as if this is helping PayPal. Think about this for a second. PayPal (The Grinch That Stole Christmas) will never get my support for the rich is so greedy and always wants more when they're already living it up. Now they are getting percentages for every cent they freeze and since the small percentage for 6 months is not much for $7,000 think about the many accounts that are frozen which could probably amount to Millions collecting interest. It adds up folks and this is an incentive for any Corporation. Now if they are really freezing funds in order to cover any law suits that may arise due to the sellers actions as stated on their policy than why not say that any interest collected on the sellers money that were frozen for 6 months will be forwarded along with the frozen funds back to the seller once the six months has ended. If they did than you wouldn't see so many accounts being frozen or bogus policy changes. It would be too much work for nothing in return and like I said before the incentive to freeze it in the first place is the interest they collect on them. Bottom line is they do not care about the Buyer or the Seller. They care about making more money and how can they? simple, by freezing funds. Another reason they freeze funds is because they have learn like I did when I worked at a so call wholesale distribution center who thrived on memberships that when someones money gets frozen or put into an account for you to use at a later date it usually goes untouch or unclaim for years making the company more money. For Instance, the company I worked at claimed they would dropship products to their customers yet they didn't even have the product in stock and the amounts of call I had to handle on a daily basis was complaints from the company's members saying that their customers weren't receiving the goods. One day I found it odd that over 90% of the calls were similar so I took it on myself to retrieve orders placed on the system as far as a year prior to the year I had been there and realized there were hundreds of people who's order were back-ordered. Since the owner was always hounding me to make phone calls and sell which he really meant new members and not existing ones with credit on their accounts from back-ordered stuff they ended up having to cancel I called all the people who had credit on their accounts dating back to a year and found out that all of them had the similar things to say about the company. Which was and I quote "I do not want to have nothing to do with your company since they stole my money from my credit card and now I'm stuck paying it with interest while your employer was holding it in his bank account collecting interest." So I reply with, "Than why don't you put in a law suit?" They Reply, "I loose more money taking this to court and if I was to add the court fees and the fact that I would have to fly to the state where the company is located plus the hotel and car rental than fly back home after the trial it will cost me more than what your employer is holding so I decide to give it all up and loose no more than what I have already lost with your company, but thank you for your concern" I than said "it is $800 you have as credit you are telling me that it will cost more?" They reply "Yes it would, I even went as far as calling the attorney general in your state and they said there wasn't anything they can do to go after them unless there was more members from the same company claiming the same things. Are you going to help me with that? why don't you supply me names, addresses and phone numbers?" I than knew this was bigger than I thought it was specially when my employer was Italian and not to say anything bad about Italians but an Italian with millions since ha has been in business since 1982 and still is I decided not to so I reply "I really do not want to get involve and they totally understood but since my concious was already alerted to the dirt going on I did Quit the company since I didn't want to be this Crook's tool to rob good folks. The moral of this story is that, Denny there are less than 10% of the World Population that are millionaires (Not Rich I mean Millionaires)so why stand behind a self centered, selfish person who gets everything from the rest of the 90%+ of the population by stealing it not earning like we do? A lot of the funds PayPal freeze will go unclaimed after the 6 months period and they have learn that in their years of operating this new source of business and they have made this a new Venue of funding for their business. Denny do not be ignorant to the fact that Corporate America does not care about you or me and this person is only alerting others like you and me so that we will not fall into the same trap like he did. This website was created by consumers for consumers not to debate between consumer and Greedy Corporations who make their living by stealing. I hope to god you do not go thru the same thing this generous person went thru because of your ignorance and just shut your mouth and listen. My father may we rest in peace used to always say "You learn more by listening to others than to do all the talking." I know I have said a lot but in this case I felt facts needed to be addressed and they were until you came on trying to justify what PayPal is doing to many. Stop, Look and Listen, Maybe You'll learn something! God Bless everyone and Denny no offense for my harsh words in the beginning but I felt you were ignorant so I met ignorance with ignorance. The fact remains that this person's money was frozen for selling goods that aren't against PayPal's policy according to him and the stuff that it is against PayPal policy as claim by him were paid by other means other than PayPal with his disclaimer but PayPal seems to be looking for its members selling both goods that are ok and against their policy within the same website thus giving them an excuse to freeze funds even if you never did receive a PayPal Payment for the items that were against their policy. Their policy has become an excuse to freeze funds, so what right do they have to freeze funds just because a person sells these other goods against their policy by money order, or their own merchant account? You know it is the right of incentive to collect interest and hopefully keep all the funds all together one day if the person for some reason wasn't able to claim them after the 180 days. I mean in 6 months lots can happen a person can die and I have seen this happen so I do not want to hear anything negative against someone who in a legit way made his money yet PayPal wants to make money by doing what? freezing funds? Please!!!! Paypal just needs to re-think another way to assured its shareholders their investment or just let it be but they can't because of another mans greed. Eventually in the end is just a con because they are coning again their shareholders so by the time shareholders realize PayPal is going down they can't get their monies worth out of their shares they paid so much to own. Once again Corporate America will loose nothing yet it is us the little people making the sacrifice to invest on shares that will loose. What a gamble, you sure will not find me on that line am to well inform. They care nothing about Buyer, Seller, or Shareholders. Ebay the same thing once they went from a private company to a public enterprise. DENNY GOD BLESS YOU BUT LIKE JESUS SAID A CAMEL WOULD FIT THRU A NEEDLES EYE BEFORE A RICH PERSON MAKES IT TO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN OR THOSE THAT BREED IGNORANCE. Denny Do your homework because you may be right when you said they made it easy for you to accept these payments online versus the merchant account but it has become a different type of ball game ran by different personnel and you are not in their roster of team mates for next year, because many are getting cut and traded to the upcoming competition. Unless you are a Michael Jordan, a Lebron James,a Tim Duncan, a Shaquile Oneil, a Steve Francis the Franchise as they call him you will be cut out of the league. Think about it!

...over a million transactions a day, then who needs a life? Those telling others to get a life.

N - could you even BE more original. Because thinking that anyone disagrees with you (and those who think like you "MUST" work for that business you're grumbling about. Yeah, N , it would be so easy. 1) NO , I dont work for paypal, but however I do follow and abide by their policies when I chose them to handle my online payment transactions. Because I only do about $500 a month in transactions, getting my own "merchant" account with a credit card company was not cost effective (the fees involved). Paypal (and Bidpay) offered alternative payment handling that was affordable to me (which means I dont pass on that cost to my customers), and benefits everyone in the end. 2) Paypal is not a bank, nor governed by the GOVT. That means, they at any time , of WHICH YOu AGREED TO WHEN YOU SIGNED UP WITH THEM, can and will FREEZE your account aT ANY TIME FOR ANY rEASON< and those reasons may not be made known to YOU! Its in their policies. You should be keeping up on their policies. Notices are sent out by them every time they make a policy change 3) THEY do not have your money. YOur money is where it is, IN your account with them. They can no more touch that "money" than you can. So YOU do know that their policy changed. So why are you grumbling? If you didn't like their changes, why did you keep your account with them? There are other payment processors online that you can use if you did not like their rules that YOU AGREED TO WHEN YOU SIGNED UP WITH THEM 4) Again, its not illegal seizure. They are following the policy that is written and YOU AGREED TO, when you signed up with them. Can't have it your way. YOu agreed to these policies when you became a member and allowed the usage of their system with your business. That means, any changes to policies will be made known to you as a member, and if you "continue" your relationship with them, you are in fact agreeing to these changes. About giving notice: ITs your responsibility to keep upated on the SERVICES YOU USE for your business. Paypal issues notices of policy changes to their members every month, and newletter is emailed everymonth. When you log on to your account, you can view the policies . Why aren't you doing this? As a "savy" business person, that is highly irresponsible of you. As stated before, I dont care if you're seeling crack to a w***e on the corner, but if you use paypal to do that transaction, YOU are in violation of their policies. All that is important, and for you to REALIZE that if you violate policies, then you are subject to the punishment for that violation. The prohibited items list can be found on their website. I dont care if your items are legal to sell in 29 states or just in 1 state, if its on Paypal's prohibited list, then YOU cannot use paypal to sell those items. N - you're like every other grumbler who writes these pointless reports. They feel that the rules dont apply to them.

Who in the heck would even do business with Paypal or E-Bay? Get a life people!!!

First of all in order for Paypals policy to have been violated goods that they outline in there ever changing terms as being banned would have to have been sold using paypal. We sell many types of items only a few of which are "restricted" by paypal. We have several notices posted that inform customers of Paypals policies and THOSE Customers have to agree to ceretain of OUR TERMS before they can purchase anything. One of the terms they agree to is to NOT BUY CERTAIN ITEMS USING PAYPAL. If they purchase these items THEY, the customer and paypal client, are violating OUR TERMS AS WELL AS PAYPALS POLICIES. What do you want to bet that no customer of our site or any other has ever had their account closed for violating these terms?? Secondly. Did you fail to read the part where I mention that just a few months ago we had this very debate with Paypal and they agreed our numerous disclaimers were sufficient. That being the case don't you think before they freeze $7,161.03 of our money they could reveiw what they agreed to in the past or at least fire a shot across our bow warning us of action if we continued? That only seems fair, doesn't it? I only found out about the 11-04-05 change when I found my account was closed and frozen. Closed is fine. I don't need paypal. It's a convenience for our customers. But FREEZING MY FUNDS, MY WORKING CAPITOL, Durring the busiest time of the year based on erronious, half baked, unsubstantiated allegations that they NOW make very difficult to dispute. That's bull$hit and you know it. There is no way they can justify doing this simply based on "their policy". Anybody can make "policy". If I had a sign in my yard that said " Here is MY Policy. Walk across my lawn and I can take your car", would I be JUSTIFIED in taking somebodies car who had walked across my lawn?? According to your logic, YES. The sign was there for them to see. They walked across my lawn anyway. I tow their car to my driveway before they even get home so they can't stop me. Then I get arrested for GRAND THEFT AUTO!! I'm sorry but policies are not laws. As a matter of fact PAYPAL doesn't even follow their own policies when it's convenient for them not to. We had a situation where a customer disputed a charge. Paypal says if WE provide proof of delivery THEY will not take our money. Well we provided proof of delivery and guess what. Since it was an Amerikan Express Charge through Paypal and Amerikan Express kisses their customers a*s, Amerikan Express upheld the chargeback. Well my agreement wasn't with Amerikan Express, it was with Paypal who chose to allow the charge through Amerikan Express. So paypal decided that even though I had lived up to their burden of proff as set forth in their policy they didn't feel they needed to stand behind their "policy" in that case because it was THEIR money. I couldn't even get the American Express information from them that I needed to dispute it with them so I got RIPPED OFF by both Pasypal ans Amerikan express, the cheating customer got a free $200.00 item I I got the smelly shaft. Why?? Because I'm the little guy. So you see their "terms" or "policies" are subjective and they are the ones that decide. In this case our "violation" was simply HAVING items on our site that Paypal doesn't allow not actually selling them via paypal. If that is the case shouldn't ANY SITE that sells ANYTHING that violates paypals policies have their accounts frozen and funds siezed?? We aren't talking about a government agency here. A government agency can't even take this kind of action. We are talking about a company that isn't even a real bank but handles peoples money like it were. Why sieze funds anyway? There is no question of fraud or any other activity that would require them to return funds to buyers. There never has been. We have so few disputes I don't recall when the last one was. We have very few returns but there has never been a problem with us refundinf payments. There is simply no GOOD reason for them to SIEZE OUR MONEY. I don't care what their policy is they have no VALID reason to sieze MY MONEY accept for the fact that while it is "frozen" it is their money. How convenient, and coniving, is that?? I can't believe any right thinking person could feel this is anything but self serving, unfair and unconscionable on paypals part. Those that do should beware not to walk across my lawn.

I'm not going to weigh in on the fairness or unfairness of PayPal's policies. However, it **is** the responsibility of the PayPal member to understand the policies under which the accounts operate. (BTW I am not a PayPal employer, just someone that uses PayPal to transact business). N, you mention that PayPal policy changed in early November. How do you know this? Where did you read this? BTW, you can sign up for email notices of change in PayPal policy under their "preferences" section of your account in order to get current notice of policy changes. In doing so, you would be kept abreast of any policy changes. As a business owner, you should be keeping copies of the various policy changes not only for PayPal but other companies with which you do business that require an agreement to terms of service. Insurance companies, mortgage companies, loan companies. It's not enough to keep copies of "current" polcies, but also expired copies so the situation as you describe don't occur. In signing up for a PayPal account, you agreed to its "terms of service" whether you remember it or not. Hard work? You bet. Running a business is hard work. Don't have time? To busy trying to just make a living? Okay, that's fine. But don't b***h when something comes back and bites you in the a*s. You can't have it both ways. Either abdicate your responsibility and take your lumps or dig in and get educated.

So do you work for PayPal? You must to have such a detailed knowledge of the innerworkings of Paypal and be so brainwashed as to express them both publicvlly and so selfservingly in such selective detail. Do you take your daily doses orally or are they injected from behind?? Clear you throat and tell you bosses that this is why I will prevail. This is why they are wrong and this is why they have no legal right to SIEZE my funds. #1. The FUNDS these theives have frozen were not funds associated with the sale of restricted items. Even if they were we still live in a land where we the people are SUPPOSED to have a right to be heard before we are punished. #2. Paypal suspended our account a few months ago for the same reason. At that time they offered an "explaination box" where a person could state their case. We pointed out that there are several notices posted in prominant places on our site that state PAYPAL CANNOT BE USED TO BUY CERTAIN ITEMS...NOT ALL ITEMS, JUST CERTAIN "restricted" ITEMS. Paypal reviewed our site, agreed and unsuspened our account in hours. What has changed?? I'll tell you what!! #3. Aperently on NOVEMBER 4th , less than two weeks ago, Paypal CHANGED their policy. Now it seems their policy (which I don't recall agreeing to) states that they can close your account and FREEZE your money for 180 days. So, for the next 180 days MY $7,161.03 is THEIR $7,161.03. Tell me Mr Paypal asshat how they deserve to have my money? Did THEY earn it? NO! But they sure took it. I call that CONVERSSION or outright theft. We will soon see what the attornies and federal banking authorities call it. #4. The "rebutal box" has VANISHED. Now a person can't send Paypal notice of their mistake, double standard, illegal seizure, theft or whatever you want to call it. HOW CONVENIENT!!! Our site sells many innocuous items like flashlights and safety equipment. Are THESE ITEMS BANNED in Paypals terms? NO!! But Paypal assumes we sold NONE of those items and SIEZES ALL OF OUR MONEY. Why? Because they changed their policy recently and can. I think not. With a BRAND NEW POLICY CHANGE NOTICE IS CALLED FOR BEFORE ACTION CAN LEGALLY BE TAKEN. The only thing they took was our money. Who do they think they are??!! No inquiry, no chance to explain, no valid reason yet they take our money without notice or just cause. Money that was earned by US not THEM yet you think they have a right to take it for 3 months?? I don't. I think they made a new change in policy less than 2 weeks ago that they think gave them license to steal their customers money on a self serving whim. If they want to close our account, FINE. Give us notice and we will vacate their financial gullage but to unilaterally SIEZE over $7000.00 from a legitimate business that just months ago they agreed was doing things in a perfectly acceptable way is unconscionable and I beieve ILLEGAL. The restriced items we sell are perfectly legal in 29 states for the average citizen and perfectly legal in the rest of the states for qualified individuals. It's not, as you stated above, like we are selling your mother CRACK on a streetcorner so go back and tell your handlers that we will prevail because Paypal has already cleared our business practices and haven't yet notified us of any changes in their policies that would lead us to believe anything we are doing is now against their "terms". What HAS changed is their policy of SIEZING PEOPLES FUNDS (as of 11-04-05) and they seem to think their "terms" and "policies" superceed law and fair play. Well Mr Paypal Hat I'm sorry to braek it to you but Paypal or GREEDEBAY don't make the laws........yet. You might want to look up at your boss in the morning from your normal kneeling position and try to explain to him in the muffled tone of somebody with a mouthful, that you did his bidding and your points were all shot down. Once he has climaxed I'm sure he will send you back as his errend boy to twist up another load of BS.

...and got caught doing so, so they suspended you. What's not fair about that? Did you bother to read over what is acceptable to sell using their service? You did know that its against their policy to sell weapons, Many electronics, Adult items, Intangible items such as E-books and psychic readings/services and such. so what if you can sell them to "other organizations?" The fact that YOU aGREED to their policies is what is important. I dont care if you sell CRACK to a w***e on the street. If you use paypal to do so, then you are in violation of their policies! It is NOT abuse for them to hold your account and suspend you from accessing those funds! Those "funds" were acquired by YOU selling prohibited items using their service! They have every right to freeze your account because YOU decided to violate their policy. YOU AGREED to them "freezing" your acount when you signed on with them. You have no case! You violated their CONTRACTUAL policy YOU AGREED TO. End of story.