Complaint Review: Primerica - Jefferson City Missouri

I am being called a rival agent by some of the PFS reps out here and that implies that I am debating out of some motivation or vendetta against PFS. I'm only trying to let people know that there are other options and that you should always be suspect of anyone that says their way is the only way to do something. I was a PFS rep for more than 2 years. I have learned their methods, done the FNA, sold the products and recruited people into the business. I think my knowledge of PFS products and practices are as good as anyone's. I did what most PFS reps haven't done ( at least the ones that I know ) and I didn't take my RVP's word as gospel. Instead of reading the positive mental candy books that PFS recommends, I read books on financial planning, insurance and investing. I came to an informed conclusion that I could do a better job as an independent agent where I worked for my clients and not a company. The business opportunity at PFS is Network Marketing and nothing more. Now I don't have the problem with NM that some do but to call PFS anything else is naieve. While the $199 fee has been debated, it is no big deal. Since you have to be licensed in this business, it doesn't matter how you get it. In some states, you can get a license for the price of a home study course that may or may not be less than $199. But in reality, this is a moot point. PFS reps justify the $199 by saying that you can earn it back in training and even make a dollar profit. Well the trainer will burn through a newbie's warm market and will make hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Why not get the new guy licensed first and have the trainer split the sale? That way everyone can make something. You can't deny that many PFS reps use recruiting scripts that are deceptive if not dishonest. Like: "Hello Mr Smith, I am calling you becuase we are looking to fill management positions with an international subsidiary of Citigroup and your name came to me as someone having the skill that we are looking for ...." Sound familiar? That statement may not be dishonest, but it is misleading. Why not say: " Hi Mr. Jones My name is John. I am with Primerica Financial Services and we are looking for people interested in an opportunity to..." Isn't that the honest way to recruit? And why don't all PFS reps do this? Are you embarassed by your company? The PFS home office doesn't seem too concerned about these questionable recruiting practices because they are still being used. As for saying that PFS insurance products have more attributes than others and that is why they cost more, well that is simply not true. I'll tell you that renewability until age 95, Accelerated benefits for the terminally ill, waiver of premium riders, child riders, etc etc can be found on any number of insurance policies. Not all other but most. I can offer all that PLUS a conversion feature that allows a client to change to a permanent insurance at the end of the term if it is necessary. If I can sell a policy that offers all this from a respected insurance company at a better price than PFS, why would I want to sell the higher priced product to my clients? Another line that gets thrown at me since I am a "rival agent" is that I am in it for the higher commissions that you can get on WL and UL products. The vast majority of the insurance I sell is term and since I sell products that are less expensive, I make less of a commission than a PFS rep at my level. So I'll ask the PFS reps, why do you want to sell some of the most expensive term insurance on the market when you can sell comparable if not superior products for less thereby saving your clients more? The SMART Loan is another hot button for PFS reps. Let me ask the PFS reps , have you ever done an amortization schdule and compared your mortgage total interest cost to a standard mortgage? Do you realize that a daily average balance calculation only pays a miniscule amount of extra on the priciple at the very beginning of the loan and that difference disappears as the loan matures? Did you know that the total interest with all else equal is about the same? Here: A $200000 mortgage at 7% interest(monthly average balance) for 30 years. Monthly payment $1330.60 Yearly Payments $15697.20 Total interest $279016 The same loan with bi weekly payments of $665.30 Bi weekly pay $665.30 Yearly payments $17297.80 Totoal interesr $207163.68 Paid off in 23.49 yrs Now a PFS loan of $200000 at 7%(daily average balance) bi weekly payments of $665.3 Bi weekly pay $665.30 Yearly payments $17297.80 Total interest $208494 Paid off in 23.54 yrs Now these are priciple and interest only. All other fees are not taken into account. But if you compare total cost of interest like the PFS reps want you to, you see that the interest cost on principle is a little more expensive with their loan. If a PFS loan is better because all other fees are less, then argue that point and post the numbers but the interest calculation is not the selling point you think it is. By the way you can get a free trial of the software I used for this example at www.felitec.com. I don't doubt the motivation of PFS reps. I truly believe they want to do well and help people. What I see are passionate people that are under informed. Not misinformed under informed. The company tells you what they want you to know and nothing more. The mistake PFS reps make is believing it all without doing their due dilligence.

I am being called a rival agent by some of the PFS reps out here and that implies that I am debating out of some motivation or vendetta against PFS. I'm only trying to let people know that there are other options and that you should always be suspect of anyone that says their way is the only way to do something. I was a PFS rep for more than 2 years. I have learned their methods, done the FNA, sold the products and recruited people into the business. I think my knowledge of PFS products and practices are as good as anyone's. I did what most PFS reps haven't done ( at least the ones that I know ) and I didn't take my RVP's word as gospel. Instead of reading the positive mental candy books that PFS recommends, I read books on financial planning, insurance and investing. I came to an informed conclusion that I could do a better job as an independent agent where I worked for my clients and not a company. The business opportunity at PFS is Network Marketing and nothing more. Now I don't have the problem with NM that some do but to call PFS anything else is naieve. While the $199 fee has been debated, it is no big deal. Since you have to be licensed in this business, it doesn't matter how you get it. In some states, you can get a license for the price of a home study course that may or may not be less than $199. But in reality, this is a moot point. PFS reps justify the $199 by saying that you can earn it back in training and even make a dollar profit. Well the trainer will burn through a newbie's warm market and will make hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Why not get the new guy licensed first and have the trainer split the sale? That way everyone can make something. You can't deny that many PFS reps use recruiting scripts that are deceptive if not dishonest. Like: "Hello Mr Smith, I am calling you becuase we are looking to fill management positions with an international subsidiary of Citigroup and your name came to me as someone having the skill that we are looking for ...." Sound familiar? That statement may not be dishonest, but it is misleading. Why not say: " Hi Mr. Jones My name is John. I am with Primerica Financial Services and we are looking for people interested in an opportunity to..." Isn't that the honest way to recruit? And why don't all PFS reps do this? Are you embarassed by your company? The PFS home office doesn't seem too concerned about these questionable recruiting practices because they are still being used. As for saying that PFS insurance products have more attributes than others and that is why they cost more, well that is simply not true. I'll tell you that renewability until age 95, Accelerated benefits for the terminally ill, waiver of premium riders, child riders, etc etc can be found on any number of insurance policies. Not all other but most. I can offer all that PLUS a conversion feature that allows a client to change to a permanent insurance at the end of the term if it is necessary. If I can sell a policy that offers all this from a respected insurance company at a better price than PFS, why would I want to sell the higher priced product to my clients? Another line that gets thrown at me since I am a "rival agent" is that I am in it for the higher commissions that you can get on WL and UL products. The vast majority of the insurance I sell is term and since I sell products that are less expensive, I make less of a commission than a PFS rep at my level. So I'll ask the PFS reps, why do you want to sell some of the most expensive term insurance on the market when you can sell comparable if not superior products for less thereby saving your clients more? The SMART Loan is another hot button for PFS reps. Let me ask the PFS reps , have you ever done an amortization schdule and compared your mortgage total interest cost to a standard mortgage? Do you realize that a daily average balance calculation only pays a miniscule amount of extra on the priciple at the very beginning of the loan and that difference disappears as the loan matures? Did you know that the total interest with all else equal is about the same? Here: A $200000 mortgage at 7% interest(monthly average balance) for 30 years. Monthly payment $1330.60 Yearly Payments $15697.20 Total interest $279016 The same loan with bi weekly payments of $665.30 Bi weekly pay $665.30 Yearly payments $17297.80 Totoal interesr $207163.68 Paid off in 23.49 yrs Now a PFS loan of $200000 at 7%(daily average balance) bi weekly payments of $665.3 Bi weekly pay $665.30 Yearly payments $17297.80 Total interest $208494 Paid off in 23.54 yrs Now these are priciple and interest only. All other fees are not taken into account. But if you compare total cost of interest like the PFS reps want you to, you see that the interest cost on principle is a little more expensive with their loan. If a PFS loan is better because all other fees are less, then argue that point and post the numbers but the interest calculation is not the selling point you think it is. By the way you can get a free trial of the software I used for this example at www.felitec.com. I don't doubt the motivation of PFS reps. I truly believe they want to do well and help people. What I see are passionate people that are under informed. Not misinformed under informed. The company tells you what they want you to know and nothing more. The mistake PFS reps make is believing it all without doing their due dilligence.

I am being called a rival agent by some of the PFS reps out here and that implies that I am debating out of some motivation or vendetta against PFS. I'm only trying to let people know that there are other options and that you should always be suspect of anyone that says their way is the only way to do something. I was a PFS rep for more than 2 years. I have learned their methods, done the FNA, sold the products and recruited people into the business. I think my knowledge of PFS products and practices are as good as anyone's. I did what most PFS reps haven't done ( at least the ones that I know ) and I didn't take my RVP's word as gospel. Instead of reading the positive mental candy books that PFS recommends, I read books on financial planning, insurance and investing. I came to an informed conclusion that I could do a better job as an independent agent where I worked for my clients and not a company. The business opportunity at PFS is Network Marketing and nothing more. Now I don't have the problem with NM that some do but to call PFS anything else is naieve. While the $199 fee has been debated, it is no big deal. Since you have to be licensed in this business, it doesn't matter how you get it. In some states, you can get a license for the price of a home study course that may or may not be less than $199. But in reality, this is a moot point. PFS reps justify the $199 by saying that you can earn it back in training and even make a dollar profit. Well the trainer will burn through a newbie's warm market and will make hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Why not get the new guy licensed first and have the trainer split the sale? That way everyone can make something. You can't deny that many PFS reps use recruiting scripts that are deceptive if not dishonest. Like: "Hello Mr Smith, I am calling you becuase we are looking to fill management positions with an international subsidiary of Citigroup and your name came to me as someone having the skill that we are looking for ...." Sound familiar? That statement may not be dishonest, but it is misleading. Why not say: " Hi Mr. Jones My name is John. I am with Primerica Financial Services and we are looking for people interested in an opportunity to..." Isn't that the honest way to recruit? And why don't all PFS reps do this? Are you embarassed by your company? The PFS home office doesn't seem too concerned about these questionable recruiting practices because they are still being used. As for saying that PFS insurance products have more attributes than others and that is why they cost more, well that is simply not true. I'll tell you that renewability until age 95, Accelerated benefits for the terminally ill, waiver of premium riders, child riders, etc etc can be found on any number of insurance policies. Not all other but most. I can offer all that PLUS a conversion feature that allows a client to change to a permanent insurance at the end of the term if it is necessary. If I can sell a policy that offers all this from a respected insurance company at a better price than PFS, why would I want to sell the higher priced product to my clients? Another line that gets thrown at me since I am a "rival agent" is that I am in it for the higher commissions that you can get on WL and UL products. The vast majority of the insurance I sell is term and since I sell products that are less expensive, I make less of a commission than a PFS rep at my level. So I'll ask the PFS reps, why do you want to sell some of the most expensive term insurance on the market when you can sell comparable if not superior products for less thereby saving your clients more? The SMART Loan is another hot button for PFS reps. Let me ask the PFS reps , have you ever done an amortization schdule and compared your mortgage total interest cost to a standard mortgage? Do you realize that a daily average balance calculation only pays a miniscule amount of extra on the priciple at the very beginning of the loan and that difference disappears as the loan matures? Did you know that the total interest with all else equal is about the same? Here: A $200000 mortgage at 7% interest(monthly average balance) for 30 years. Monthly payment $1330.60 Yearly Payments $15697.20 Total interest $279016 The same loan with bi weekly payments of $665.30 Bi weekly pay $665.30 Yearly payments $17297.80 Totoal interesr $207163.68 Paid off in 23.49 yrs Now a PFS loan of $200000 at 7%(daily average balance) bi weekly payments of $665.3 Bi weekly pay $665.30 Yearly payments $17297.80 Total interest $208494 Paid off in 23.54 yrs Now these are priciple and interest only. All other fees are not taken into account. But if you compare total cost of interest like the PFS reps want you to, you see that the interest cost on principle is a little more expensive with their loan. If a PFS loan is better because all other fees are less, then argue that point and post the numbers but the interest calculation is not the selling point you think it is. By the way you can get a free trial of the software I used for this example at www.felitec.com. I don't doubt the motivation of PFS reps. I truly believe they want to do well and help people. What I see are passionate people that are under informed. Not misinformed under informed. The company tells you what they want you to know and nothing more. The mistake PFS reps make is believing it all without doing their due dilligence.

I am being called a rival agent by some of the PFS reps out here and that implies that I am debating out of some motivation or vendetta against PFS. I'm only trying to let people know that there are other options and that you should always be suspect of anyone that says their way is the only way to do something. I was a PFS rep for more than 2 years. I have learned their methods, done the FNA, sold the products and recruited people into the business. I think my knowledge of PFS products and practices are as good as anyone's. I did what most PFS reps haven't done ( at least the ones that I know ) and I didn't take my RVP's word as gospel. Instead of reading the positive mental candy books that PFS recommends, I read books on financial planning, insurance and investing. I came to an informed conclusion that I could do a better job as an independent agent where I worked for my clients and not a company. The business opportunity at PFS is Network Marketing and nothing more. Now I don't have the problem with NM that some do but to call PFS anything else is naieve. While the $199 fee has been debated, it is no big deal. Since you have to be licensed in this business, it doesn't matter how you get it. In some states, you can get a license for the price of a home study course that may or may not be less than $199. But in reality, this is a moot point. PFS reps justify the $199 by saying that you can earn it back in training and even make a dollar profit. Well the trainer will burn through a newbie's warm market and will make hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Why not get the new guy licensed first and have the trainer split the sale? That way everyone can make something. You can't deny that many PFS reps use recruiting scripts that are deceptive if not dishonest. Like: "Hello Mr Smith, I am calling you becuase we are looking to fill management positions with an international subsidiary of Citigroup and your name came to me as someone having the skill that we are looking for ...." Sound familiar? That statement may not be dishonest, but it is misleading. Why not say: " Hi Mr. Jones My name is John. I am with Primerica Financial Services and we are looking for people interested in an opportunity to..." Isn't that the honest way to recruit? And why don't all PFS reps do this? Are you embarassed by your company? The PFS home office doesn't seem too concerned about these questionable recruiting practices because they are still being used. As for saying that PFS insurance products have more attributes than others and that is why they cost more, well that is simply not true. I'll tell you that renewability until age 95, Accelerated benefits for the terminally ill, waiver of premium riders, child riders, etc etc can be found on any number of insurance policies. Not all other but most. I can offer all that PLUS a conversion feature that allows a client to change to a permanent insurance at the end of the term if it is necessary. If I can sell a policy that offers all this from a respected insurance company at a better price than PFS, why would I want to sell the higher priced product to my clients? Another line that gets thrown at me since I am a "rival agent" is that I am in it for the higher commissions that you can get on WL and UL products. The vast majority of the insurance I sell is term and since I sell products that are less expensive, I make less of a commission than a PFS rep at my level. So I'll ask the PFS reps, why do you want to sell some of the most expensive term insurance on the market when you can sell comparable if not superior products for less thereby saving your clients more? The SMART Loan is another hot button for PFS reps. Let me ask the PFS reps , have you ever done an amortization schdule and compared your mortgage total interest cost to a standard mortgage? Do you realize that a daily average balance calculation only pays a miniscule amount of extra on the priciple at the very beginning of the loan and that difference disappears as the loan matures? Did you know that the total interest with all else equal is about the same? Here: A $200000 mortgage at 7% interest(monthly average balance) for 30 years. Monthly payment $1330.60 Yearly Payments $15697.20 Total interest $279016 The same loan with bi weekly payments of $665.30 Bi weekly pay $665.30 Yearly payments $17297.80 Totoal interesr $207163.68 Paid off in 23.49 yrs Now a PFS loan of $200000 at 7%(daily average balance) bi weekly payments of $665.3 Bi weekly pay $665.30 Yearly payments $17297.80 Total interest $208494 Paid off in 23.54 yrs Now these are priciple and interest only. All other fees are not taken into account. But if you compare total cost of interest like the PFS reps want you to, you see that the interest cost on principle is a little more expensive with their loan. If a PFS loan is better because all other fees are less, then argue that point and post the numbers but the interest calculation is not the selling point you think it is. By the way you can get a free trial of the software I used for this example at www.felitec.com. I don't doubt the motivation of PFS reps. I truly believe they want to do well and help people. What I see are passionate people that are under informed. Not misinformed under informed. The company tells you what they want you to know and nothing more. The mistake PFS reps make is believing it all without doing their due dilligence.

Paul, someday you will step over that line and the webmaster will ban you (I like to keep you around as your whining is hurting Primerica). Some quoting: "Does everyone see how useless, how disingenuous, how deceitful Stuart's postings are?" Outside of your alter ego (who hasn't been around) and yourself Paul, no one else has a problem with my postings (and I can give you plenty of posters who find faults with yours troller). "You continue to use personal denigration instead of provable facts." I'll leave that with the honest, smart public to decide, not someone who has a personal stake with Primerica. "Then you dispute what I said about your deletion. I will be more than happy to provide the thread and date to support what I said. It is true." Go on, make my day you slitherer. "You never tell why you post here." It's none of your business why I do although I'm sure that the smart public can figure it out for themselves. "I have never posted unless I had to answer someone else's posting." How many times is that Paul and when was the first time? Poor Paul. Plenty of accusations with nothing to back him up. Another typical Primerica failure.

Stuart, first, many postings ago, you posted the whole article. Then when I pointed out how moral Primerica was (which had already reimbursed victims for their losses), that is they took care of clients before any legal judgment, you deleted that phrase. I want to do business with a company that, upon learning that a bad agent did things wrong, went out and took care of the clients. And now that I called you on deleting that part, you post the whole thing again. Does everyone see how useless, how disingenuous, how deceitful Stuart's postings are? Can you trust anything he posts? I don't think so. Trolling and slithered. You continue to use personal denigration instead of provable facts. Then you dispute what I said about your deletion. I will be more than happy to provide the thread and date to support what I said. It is true. On the other hand, what you just posted is completely false. You lied. You did delete stuff. And your extrapolation that there is more to the article points to the fact you will post anything, right or wrong (mostly wrong). And then you state more outright lies: In this case Paul, the reason why details are missing is because you deleted them yourself in an attempt to delude the public. Are you so low that you can make such outrageous, slanderous, and untruthful personal accusations! You never tell why you post here. You never state the hurt or wrong you suffered. You simply keep posting and posting your slanderous garbage over and over again. And let me close with the subject of posting. You implied that I troll around and post a lot. To the public that you disingenuously called upon, I have never posted unless I had to answer someone else's posting. However, you start new threads proving how slithery you really are.

Paul has been actively trolling around for months and I see he's slithered his way onto this thread. I quote: "(and is where Stuart realized that he was destroying his own supposition and deleted this part subsequently):" Paul you're wrong on two counts. First to delete something, it must be there in the (report) in the first place to be deleted. The EDitor (who's also the webmaster for this site) has said that once a report gets posted, its contents don't change, doesn't get deleted nor added on to. In fact if I asked the EDitor to delete a portion or all of the contents of your reports, I know it will never happen and vice-versa. You're also wrong as I'm still posting away where I deem it appropriate Paul (by the way I think one of the important questions is how long did it take Primerica to respond once it became known that its California executive agent bilked the senior citizen - there's a lot that the article didn't cover and I'm sure more will come to light). Oh Paul I noticed you're not bringing up Citigroup any more as much as you used to (I guess your handy dandy Primerica manual must have it deleted). "There's a problem, however. Citigroup has been charged with predatory lending to the poor, not only by consumer advocates, but by the Federal Reserve Board, the Federal Trade Commission, and other governmental agencies. Citigroup's seeming capture of microcredit as-industry does not bode well." My oh my Paul. Another quote on Paul: "By the way, I consider the fact that you do not include all the details to be simply how you fracture and bend facts to your own agenda. So to all reading Stuart's postings, keep this in mind." In this case Paul, the reason why details are missing is because you deleted them yourself in an attempt to delude the public. The public will see that I do reproduce entire articles along with their links in some of my reports and if I don't reproduce the entire article (to try to keep my reports short), I still give the link which I generally do. So Paul in the spirit of what you just brought up, I'll reproduce the entire article that you're claiming I left out important details. The link is: http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/stories/2004/11/01/daily54.html "Former Primerica exec convicted of bilking senior A one-time regional vice president at Primerica Financial Services has pleaded guilty to felony grand theft following a California Department of Insurance investigation. Herbert Amos Jones of Bethel Island was sentenced to the 44 days he served in county jail and ordered to pay $25,000 in restitution to Primerica, which had already reimbursed victims for their losses. 'This case reflects the growing problem of financial elder abuse,' said Insurance Commissioner John Garamendi in a statement released to the media on Friday. 'California insurance agents and brokers are put on notice that preying on senior citizens' hard earned - and usually very necessary funds - will not be tolerated.' Jones was arrested in Florida in September and extradited to California for prosecution by the Contra Costa County District Attorney's Office. The department's investigation had found that Jones, who surrendered his insurance license when he fled California, convinced a 69-year-old woman and her 38-year-old daughter to invest $25,000 with him. Jones diverted the mother-daughter funds, failed to secure valid proof of the investments, then submitted incomplete, falsified documents to the daughter in an effort to hide the crime, the department said. The investigation also showed that the daughter's U.S Postal Service pension plan was cleaned out, causing her additional tax penalties. Primerica's restitution included reimbursement of those penalties. The department said it believes there may other victims who had business dealings with Jones. 2004 American City Business Journals Inc."

I have more than a rudimentary knowledge of finance and the basic mathematics of mortgage financing. I will cite my credentials if you believe that will make me more convincing. I would like you to follow my logic below, however, as I believe it stands on its own. Even if you acknowledge that I am correct it does not mean that Primerica's products are terrible. It only means that they are not the best. I do not want to "destroy Primerica". For all I know they do more good than harm. Interest rates matter, no matter what the structure of a loan. APRs and monthly compounding or continuous time compounding are irrelevant issues. Point one: The best loan is the one that is cheapest in its total lifetime cost. Primerica's loans usually come at a higher interest rate but their total lifetime cost is lower than a traditional 30 year loan with a lower rate, since they ammortize it over a shorter period of time or use a biweekly payment system. (The savings from continuously compounded interest are negligible--I sent my spread sheet around a year ago and am willing to do it again. Or you can visit the mortgage professor's website at Wharton. Or you can do it yourself in Excel by exponentiating your interest rate.) However, with over 90% of 30-year mortgages you can make extra payments yourself in which you pay extra principle immediately (not waiting until the end of the year). By making the extra payments yourself, you can structure the term of the loan to match the term of a primerica loan. So now imagine that both loans are on schedule to be paid off in 15 years. We are now comparing apples to apples. The loan with the lower interest rate is the cheaper, better loan. Ergo, interest rates always are the most important factor in choosing a loan. Point two: Biweekly programs are poor products. This is not unique to Primerica. Almost all banks offer them, but most of the time they are for suckers. The reasoning is simple. The idea behind biweekly payments is great: pay off more principal early and you will pay less in interest over the life of the loan. Furthermore, by making the biweekly payments, it is easier to swallow budget wise. What is a ripoff is that mortgage lenders charge extra fees ( as high as 1% of the principle) to set up the biweekly program. As stated earlier, most banks let you make extra payments. Most will let you make two/three per month. You can do the biweekly system your self without paying $1000 dollars to do it. The second part of why the banks' and Primerica's biweekly program is a ripoff is because these formal programs hold your extra money in an account until the end of the loan year before applying it to principle. This costs you in extra interest. If you make the extra payments yourself, then the extra is immediately applied to your principle meaning you have saved from 1 to 11 months of interest on that amount. I am not making this stuff up. It is common knoweldge for most finance professionals and is talked about periodically in personal finance publications like Kiplinger's, Money and SmartMoney. It is easily shown using spreadsheets or basic financial mathematics. Just because bankers offer the programs doesn't mean you are getting the best deal. It is analogous to the Scotch guard sealant that Auto dealers spray on your new car seats. It costs them $500 but you could go to Walmart and do it yourself for $20. If you have questions or want clarification, please ask.

There have been 8 posts since my last posting. I will answer or comment on all of them The first I will address is Cullen's postings (there have been 2). First, Cullen, I applaud your honesty. You have always stated upfront and honestly that you are a rival agent and a competitor who is offering counterpoint about Primerica's product offerings. There are others, such as Stuart, who will never state the rational for their agenda. I will address Stuart next. As for you, your counterpoint is good and I do find our discussions to be constructive. In your 2/14 posting, you stated that I attacked you: Name calling and personal attacks. I invite all to read my 2/13 posting about your 2/2 posting. While my rebuttal was strong, I never attacked you personally. I always comment on a person's position, never on the person. Having said that, I again, as I always do, wish you the best in your other endeavor. It is laudable that you feel you can offer more services to your clients. That is good business. Let me ask you, do you offer legal protection? Do you offer long term health care? Primerica is the marketing arm for Citigroup (a large cornucopia of products) and any affiliated relationships. Yes, you can offer your clients several variations of insurance, but the bottom line is, is that in their best interest? (NO!) or your best interest due to commissions? (YES!). The ONLY right answer is term insurance with an investment account. Anything else is wrong and not in the client's best interest. You have stated tax consequences as a reason to buy your products. As I do taxes (but won't provide advice here), I disagree. (Of course, everything we discuss has exceptions to the rule, so we can take any position and site examples that we are right). Your major negative concerns estate planning and heirs. You state: I am still of the opinion that if a PFS client does manage to put away a couple million in mutual funds that a PFS rep will not be able to show them how to disburse that money for income while minimizing taxes and protect that clients heirs from estate taxes with the proper planning. Well first, thank you for the acknowledgement that we can help people save a lot for retirement. Second, your issues mean tax advice. While I can do tax advisement, as you know most cannot (the IRS gets crazy about this). And Primerica is not a tax advisory service. I tell all my clients to check with their tax advisor. So stop using generic issues as Primerica negatives, But Cullen, I do find you to be the most lucid poster here and enjoy our conversation and if you took my comments as a personal attack, I apologize as that was not my intent. ---------------------------- And now for Stuart Stuart has posted twice since I posted (he has posted uncountable times all over this site). The 2/15 post was a request for more information on the article. I will answer about the newspaper article next. But now, let me answer (again!!) your silly post of 2/14. You have again posted what you think is a Primerica negative. You refuse to acknowledge that this is really a Primerica positive. I have answered this stupidity several times in other threads, but you keep posting it. And it is very disingenuous and very deceptive of you to delete the most important part of this situation. And for all to know how misleading Stuart is, he used to include this part until I highlighted it. So he stopped including it. So you decide if he is worth listening to!!! You decide if his garbage is just that, garbage! Here is what I posted on a different thread (and is where Stuart realized that he was destroying his own supposition and deleted this part subsequently): **Start of copy** And to debunk your constant posting about the case in California. You keep refusing to highlight the most important point. I quote from your post he served in county jail and ordered to pay $25,000 in restitution to Primerica, which had already reimbursed victims for their losses. Let's look at that. He had to pay Primerica. Why? He was a bad agent and he is the exception and not the rule. If we are such a scam outfit, why don't you list 100 or 1,000 cases??? Put up or Shut up (your words)! You can't because there aren't that many! But here is the most important part: which had already reimbursed victims for their losses. Let me repeat this: which had ALREADY reimbursed victims for their losses. Primerica paid people back BEFORE THE JUDGMENT! I want to do business with a company that stands the moral ground and immediately took care of the customers. Not like the scam, corrupt company picture you paint Stuart. **End of copy** By the way, I consider the fact that you do not include all the details to be simply how you fracture and bend facts to your own agenda. So to all reading Stuart's postings, keep this in mind. It is very disingenuous, very misleading, and very deceptive of you to extrapolate the action of one bad person to all of us. What is wrong with you? Where does your hate come from? You call me a shill, a clown, a barker. All your personal attacks actually belittle you! Who are you? A rival agent? You never state. You never tell. So we don't know the basis for your agenda. I applaud Cullen for his honesty; I can't state anything about you. Your words, as far as I am concerned, are worthless ------------------------------------ And now to Susan and the article in the Dallas News I did subscribe to the web site so that I could get the text of the article. I read it and, while it was basically good financial advice, it is wrong about our product. I have sent a copy to Primerica compliance and I have sent an e-mail to the author. When I get an answer (or better yet a retraction), I will post it here. But so we don't have to wait, allow me to give you a summary of the article and where the columnist went in the wrong direction. The person's question: I am currently at 5 7/8 percent, and his mortgage rate is around 8 percent. But he claims their mortgage is simple interest and will save me money. Plus he claims they are the only ones that offer a simple mortgage interest rate. I am tempted to do this because I have about $21,000 in credit card debt that I would like to put into a mortgage and be done with it. What do you suggest? And what can you tell me about his claims? The columnist answers at length with generally good advice about accelerated payment of your mortgage. He then states This type of analysis is what a financial analyst would call the "incremental cost of new borrowing." This is the most important statement in the article. As with any product you buy, you must know what it will cost you to buy that product. The product we are talking about is the use of money. The cost of that product is the differential between what you get and what you end up paying. It is NOT the APR! (Please see my APR posting) It is NOT the closing costs! He calls this the incremental cost of new borrowing. That is correct. Where the columnist went wrong is he did not consider the difference in how we calculate interest (which is a cost of borrowing). The question in the article states simple interest. This is not correct. It is a recomputed interest for each payment. Let's look at an example. If you have a standard mortgage based on an amortization schedule, and you made a large payment assume $100,000 you would expect that your next payment would have less interest and more principal. GUESS WHAT NOOOOO! You will pay the same interest as if you never paid the $100,000. YOU ARE BEING RIPPED-OFF BY THE BANKS! (Where are all the postings against that!!!!) When you consider the effect of paying in our program even as little as a $100 extra each payment, THE AMOUNT OF INTEREST YOU PAY IS GREATLY REDUCED! So that makes our programs much less costly. We advocate this methodology to reduce people's debt! I will post his answer as soon as I get it. __________________________ Paul of Roanoke Paul, of course, at some point, interest rates will outweigh all other factors. Please read the above, and my postings on the fallacy of APR, to see how you can be misled in this very deceptive industry. I find your intimation that we rip-off people with a biweekly program to be unbelievable. What basis do you have for that statement? Anyone who has a rudimentary knowledge of finance knows that a biweekly program is one of the best ways to reduce debt. So what is your problem? -------------------------------------------To Keith Thank you for an usually fair appraisal of an introduction to Primerica. I only wish that most where as reasonable and fair as you. ___________________ To Jesssica You have provided another voice of truth against the garbage here. We all need to counterpoint the misstatements that exist here. Keep posting. Thank you. Sorry about the length of this (and I condensed it!!!), but when fighting what is wrong, you must be persistent.

Keith, I am going to answer your inquiry (why would Citigroup involve themselves with something that may be a scam?) in one word: PROFITABILITY! To even ask why a massive holding company would associate themselves with an ethically bankrupt corporation is the utmost of naivet. To suggest that such an affiliation is de facto evidence of legitimacy suggests either ignorance or a willingness to deceive via self-serving rubbish. Why does Yum! Brands (parent company of Taco Bell) purchase its produce from companies that pay their harvesters less than minimum wage? Why does Nike manufacture its apparel in overseas sweatshops? Why does Wal-Mart engage in predatory pricing that runs competitors out of business? Why did Microsoft violate anti-trust laws for nearly two decades? Why did Ford continue to sell a vehicle with a tendency to explode when rear-ended? Why did Enron, Worldcom, Tyco, etc. engage in fraudulent accounting? The answer to each of these questions is the same: because it is (or was) profitable to do so. The ultimate goal of every for-profit corporation is the generation of profits. Not making sure that employees are treated well, not cleaning up the environment, and certainly not ensuring that they only invest in ethically sound operations. Primerica makes money for Citigroup, and the inquiry ends there. A suggestion that Citigroup would not align itself with an ILLEGAL operation would have some validity, but only to the extent that Citigroup would not want to expose itself to legal liabilities. This is not the suggestion, however. Primerica does operate within the bounds of the law (save for some rogue agents). But legal and ethical are not the same thing. A scam operation is inherently unethical, but not necessarily illegal. Primerica does not fit within the FTC definition of a pyramid scheme, and as such is legal (at least in that regard). That does not mean, however, that the Primerica sales operation is not, in a practical sense, a pyramid scheme, with the inherent accompanying dangers. And, while on the subject of pyramids, let me point out that the oft repeated assertion that all major organizations are pyramids is a fallacy. There is a profound difference between a pyramidal organizational structure and a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are characterized by perpetual reproduction of a distribution or gifting plan via agressive and usually deceitful recruiting techniques. They are based on mathematically unsound business principles that enrich those at the top at the expense of those at the bottom. Pyramidal organizations (excluding pyramid schemes), on the other hand, are based on a proven organizational structure that seeks the most efficient means of product delivery. Usually, this is accomplished with no more than five levels because anything more creates inefficiency. Pyramid schemes use the pyramidal organization structure as a springboard, and adapt its potential inefficiencies to a program that exploits the benefits of those inefficiencies while placing the accompanying risks entirely on the distributors. In a pyramid scheme it doesn't matter that the operation is inefficient because the distributors are independent contractors, and the company is not liable to them for anything other than commissions. The detriments of the inefficient operation are thus absorbed solely by the distributors - there is no risk to the parent company. This, in a large sense, is why many pyramid schemes are some of the most successful companies in the world. The promoters of any non-pyramid scheme would certainly like to have a massive, potentially unlimited distribution team if doing so would produce a net benefit. Where the detriments of unrestrained marketing are borne by the company, however, there is no net benefit. In fact, there would most likely be a loss. The long and short of it (mostly long) is that pyramid schemes are inherently inefficient operations. The detriments of the inefficient operation have to be borne by someone, and ultimately it is the individual distributor. The result is that the average distributor will either make very little money or, in some cases, will lose money. If MLMs were no longer allowed to classify their agents as independent contractors they would probably all fail (if they maintained current operations, which they probably wouldn't). If MLM agents were classified as "employees" they would fall under the coverage of the FLSA, and the company would have to pay them at least a minimum wage. For most MLMs, if the current sales force commanded even a minimum wage, the entire operation would crumble under massive labor costs. But, as the law allows these companies to classify their agents as independent contractors, the agents command a wage based on performance. In the industry as a whole, this means that most MLM agents earn far below minimum wage. The third point I would like to tackle is the "captivity" issue. Consider this analogy: I set up a little shop where I refer customers to various restaurants. I ask my clients what kind of food they like, how much money they have to spend, whether they have children in the party, and how much time they would like to spend on a dining experience. I then send all of my clients to Burger King. Am I helping families? Sure, in the sense that I have told them where they can go for dinner. But wouldn't my clients, as a whole, be better off if I didn't send everyone to Burger King? Burger King may be a great fit for some of them, and arguably provides a quality product. But by limiting my referrals to a single establishment I am invariably failing to give many of my clients the best option for them as individuals. Such is the case with a financial analyst who offers a one-size-fits-all financial plan. He is helping people in the sense that they are better off with a plan than without one. However, by limiting himself to a tight range of products, he is invariably failing to give the best individualized advice to many, if not most of his clients. Term life insurance has many benefits, and for many people is the best option. But it's not the best option for everybody. Debt free living is also the best route for some, but for others well managed debt can be very productive. The best financial advice, like the best dining advice, will differ depending on an individual's circumstances and desires. By giving one option you are really only "helping" those who would not benefit more from a different option. Primerica offers some quality products, but they are not right for everybody, and consumers as a whole are far better off with an agent who can offer them products from a variety of sources.

When you say the AIG guy, you must mean me. Well I am an idependent agent and can work with over 15 different companies. I used AIG in an example because I don't think you want me using 15 or more comparisons at a time. Now please tell me in my posts where I said I "love whloe life insurance" I remember saying that I don't recommend traditional whole life. My points were to illustrate the shortcomings of the PFS one size fits all philosophy and that a true financial plan allows for flexibility. With a PFS plan, if some unforseeable event screws up their theory of decreasing responsibility, the clients have no options. If They still need insurance after age 65 and some people do, they have no option but to pay huge term premiums. A PFS policy cannot be converted to a UL plan for example so the premiums will keep going up. I never said PFS tries to rip anyone off, I said an independent rep can do a better job at a better value. I have said that the bssic buy term and invest philosophy is one that I use regularly as do many of my colleagues. I specifically remember giving Art Williams credit for changing the industry. And How is my business not comparable. I offer the same products to the same demographic as PFS. I can recruit and train agents. I can do all that with a more comprehensive product line at a better value than PFS. PFS is a marketing arm but what do they market? The answer is , the same services I do.

To those who complain about this being a 'pyramid scam': Look at the job you are in now. Corporations consist of a CEO, who has people reporting to him/her, who has people reporting to them, etc. And, I highly doubt that the first level employee makes the same salary as the CEO. Also, draw out the chain of command for our government. Hmmm, looks a little like...a pyramid. Well, people do think the government is scamming us! As for the AIG guy: #1- Which produces more commission? Term or whole life? No wonder you love whole life. #2- You use so much effort trying to tell Primerica Reps that we are ripping people off, but do you thoroughly explain to your whole life clients the nice little rules that are attached to their policy? #3- You also bragged about how you were able to replace a Primerica policy with your term policy for less, making more money available to invest the difference. Great, so you agree that buying term and investing the difference is in the best interest of clients. After all, that concept is not a new one. Primerica did not invent it, we just carry it out. #4- We all agree that life insurance is important for families to have. However, our businesses aren't even truly comparable. You are an insurance company. Primerica is a marketing arm. Lastly, think about this: I'm willing to bet that no matter what anyone says in response to you, your opinions will not change. So, what makes you think that what you have to say is going to make people 'see the light'?

I have read all of the postings on Primerica and realized I only had to read one thread. The postings say the same thing. I am not an employee of primerica or any subsidairy of citi group. I just wanted to say that primerica seems like a fair opprotunity for those who want to get involved. I have gone to one of thier "meetings" and while it did seem kind of cult-like, it seemed ligit. Primerica is not for me, but for some would be a good fit. I think the biggest problem people have with the company is that someone elese makes money off of what you do. This is how the real buisness world works. You get paid to do you job. Someone else profits from you doing your job. That's just the way it is. In my opinion, the promise of lots of money is kind of decietful, but what company isn't going to tell you what you "can" make. As far as paying money to them, it seemed that the money involved was for liscensing, not a fee. I raise a question that another poster had asked and that is, if this is a scam, why would citi group be involved? I have also noticed that while the two or three main posters in this colomn have been so preocupied with restating what was already restated(getting redundant)they have stopped answering questions of those who are really intersted if this is ligit. To those people I say this: go and see for yourself. Ask questions. If you don't like what you hear, don't work there. I'm sure you have the ability to make up you own mind. And another thing, you probably aren't going to make 100k your first year. or your second. Think about it realisticly and you'll be fine.

It might be more effective to discuss the specific issues related to PFS. Do Primerica reps still say "interest rates don't matter"? And do they still push the "Biweekly Payment Plan" (this ripoff is not unique to Primerica)?

Susan, can you do us a favor and post the contents of the article on Ripoff Report? The link you gave requires registering first before you get to see the article. Thank you.

Quoting: "You leave only if you a failing!!!" Perfect description of what happened last year in California Paul with a Primerica executive who simply didn't leave, he fled. Here are the details: The link: http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/stories/2004/11/01/daily54.html The article: "Former Primerica exec convicted of bilking senior A one-time regional vice president at Primerica Financial Services has pleaded guilty to felony grand theft following a California Department of Insurance investigation. Herbert Amos Jones of Bethel Island was sentenced to the 44 days he served in county jail and ordered to pay $25,000 in restitution to Primerica, which had already reimbursed victims for their losses. "This case reflects the growing problem of financial elder abuse," said Insurance Commissioner John Garamendi in a statement released to the media on Friday. "California insurance agents and brokers are put on notice that preying on senior citizens' hard earned - and usually very necessary funds - will not be tolerated." Jones was arrested in Florida in September and extradited to California for prosecution by the Contra Costa County District Attorney's Office. The department's investigation had found that Jones, who surrendered his insurance license when he fled California, convinced a 69-year-old woman and her 38-year-old daughter to invest $25,000 with him. Jones diverted the mother-daughter funds, failed to secure valid proof of the investments, then submitted incomplete, falsified documents to the daughter in an effort to hide the crime, the department said. The investigation also showed that the daughter's U.S Postal Service pension plan was cleaned out, causing her additional tax penalties. Primerica's restitution included reimbursement of those penalties. The department said it believes there may other victims who had business dealings with Jones. 2004 American City Business Journals Inc." So Paul are you going to try to defend the actions of this ex-RVP? He was still working for Primerica when he bilked a senior citizen. How did he fail from within Primerica? What corrupted him?

Let's see the Primerica zealots respond to the link I have listed below. They must be so proud to be associated with such a fine company. I know if I was selling their mortgages I'd just be thrilled to see that article in the paper. Of course, they are the only company that's doing what's right for the consumer. SURE THEY ARE!!! http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/scottburns/qa/2005/stories/021005dnbusburns.91b5b657.html Read Scott Burns article in the Dallas Morning News on 02/09/2005 on refinancing your mortgage through Primerica.

Paul I don't know why you are so fond of name calling and personal attacks. It takes away the purpose of debate and makes you sound like a zealot. For one thing, 28% is NOT 48% so what is your problem with my statement? IS it not true? And the other person said PFS was 48% of Citigroup's NOT Citibankk NA so even your 28% figure is referring to the wrong company.. So if you get your info right, I will get over it. I don't consider myself a competitor of PFS because they cannot compete with me. I am now independent and can work with over 15 insurance companies so I can always find the best solution for my clients. You work for a captive company and can provide only one solution for yours. As for owning your business. I was told from day one that "you're in business for yourself" "this is your business" etc etc etc The point is it wasn't. I was told by the home office that I could not join a referral group, that I could not refer my clients to CPAs, real estate agents, lawyers or any other professional that could have helped them with issues beyond the scope of what I could do for them. The only way to "sell" a PFS business is , with home office approval of course, to another PFS rep. If a business cannot be valued in the open market, how can you say it has value? Most captive companies have clauses like this because inevitably an independent agent who works for the CLIENT and not the company can do a better job at a better value. Justify replacement any way you want but if I recruit and train a good agent, why should anyone have the right to take him away. Just because it is policy doesn't mean it is a good one. You may need a Series 65 or an RIA to charge for a financial plan but you don't need those to DO a complete financial plan. You may discuss debt management and offer only one solution a SMART loan that can be beat on the open market by most any other loan when compared side by side. Your solution for college, retirement, emergency fund etc is what MUTUAL FUNDS. Long term care planning with one GE financial product why not give your clients some choices. The so called attributes of your term insurance are nothing that is not in any other term policy. My AIG policy has accelerated benefits, is renewable to 95, the disability waiver is a rider that costs extra and should not be considered as part of a standard policy, but other companies offer that too. By the way my AIG policy replaced a 3 yr old PFS policy for double the face amount the same term of 20 yrs and cost LESS so I can INVEST MORE. It also has a conversion option in case I need an estate planning tool. PFS doesn't. I am still of the opinion that if a PFS client does manage to put away a couple million in mutual funds that a PFS rep will not be able to show them how to disburse that money for income while minimizing taxes and protect that clients heirs from estate taxes with the proper planning. In short PFS advice will probably cost that person money. I'll say it again anyone is better off with an independent advisor or a team of independent agents that work together to put together a complete financial strategy that will cover all the bases. And Paul you say I am denigrating you and the company. I have never used derogatory adjectives or name calling in any of my posts. You have called me stupid, idiotic, a liar,that my opinion is garbage and a diatribe. Look in the mirror my friend.

It will be my pleasure to respond to the worthless postings by Cullen and Stuart. Let us start with Cullen: You titled your posting: 48% of citigroup is Primerica...NOT. And then added: I am never surprised when a PFS rep pulls a figure like this out of his hat. I would like to see Citigroups annual statement that supports this claim. I am of the opinion that Citi could lose PFS tomorrow and not feel a thing. I answer: From the 2003 (I will post 2004 as soon as it is available) financials and 10K submitted to the government (so no matter whatever bullsh*t is posted here, this is what has been declared UNDER LAW and penalty of prosecution.) CitiBank NA $7,361 (million) Primerica $2,121 (million) That equates to 28.8% (I post this as I disagreed with the 48% number [based on this report] but I agree with Bob's enthusiasm [and I ask Bob to direct me to where the 48% comes from]). So I present a documented, published number. But I will state that for Primerica to contribute almost 1/3 of revenue of one the world's largest corporation is very OUTSTANDING. So to those who are negative, GET OVER IT. You posted: I was a PFS rep for a couple of years before I decided to move into real financial planning as a career. Here is what I know about the company. The own your own business line is a lie. Ay PFS a rep does not own his clients or his sales team, the company does. I answer: As with many of the postings here, there is a snippet of truth and the rest is not true. First, I wish you well in your new career. As you are now a competitor of ours, I find your negativism a bit disingenuous. So stop the completely wrong garbage about owning your own business. Once you are at the Senior VP level you can sell your business. If you can sell it you own it, no matter what lies you state. However, I will agree that we are captive agents (that is the industry's term and not a negative term). But if you are making money here, why would you leave? You leave only if you a failing!!! You Post: A rep leaving the company has to abide by no contact clauses and no replacement clauses that extend 2 or more years. Therefore you do not "own" anything. I answer: HELLO. WAKE UP!!! Most corporations and ALL sales organizations have No Compete clauses!!!!! That is normal business. But you and others often list normal business practices as Primerica negatives. You Post: Upon promotion to RVP(regional Vice Pres.) a rep must give one or more of his best producing legs to his upline. I have seen this policy crush an otherwise strong business. I answer: This is an internal issue. I understand this and I, and others who are ethical, have discussed the transition to RVP so that the (our) organization continues to be strong. The short-sighted RVPs who did what you stated only hurt themselves. You posted: The analysis (FNA) they do is not a financial plan (it saya so right on the front page) but rather it is a sales tool that while it does do a fair job at savings and debt pay off projections it is designed to make a client scared enough about his situation to buy a product. The philosophy at PFS is a one size fits all program that says "term insurance and mutual funds will make you financially independent". Well a financial strategy is way more than that. I answer: This diatribe is stupid beyond belief. We always state that, as we are not CFA's (which requires a separate certification and explains the disclaimer [WOW we tell the truth!!!!]), we can not state that this is FP. However it is an extremely good tool to help a client map out their future. You intimation that we only discuss Term Insurance and Mutual Funds is absolutely wrong and shows how uninformed you are. We also discuss debt management, tuition planning for the client's children, emergency fund planning, retirement planning, legal protection, and long term health care. So wake up and smell the financial planning. I continue: The rest of your garbage is just that. You misstate the insurance costs without comparing the attributes that are included in ours and not included in others (Guarantee renewable, disability waiver, etc.). You also don't state that most quotes for Preferred-Plus discounted rates are never available and that (as I see time and time again) that the final rates quoted are equal or actually more than ours. You misstate the cost of the SMART loan without taking into account the true cost of borrowing. For example, let us assume a customer prepays $100,000 on a mortgage. One would expect that the next payment would have more of the principle applied. GUESS WHAT!! With an amortized mortgage, that next payment would charge you the same amount of interest as if you didn't prepay $100,000. Guess what, YOU HAVE BEEN OVERCHARGED. RIPPED-OFFED!!! But there are lots of posts here against us when there should be lots against the ones WHO ARE RIPPING YOU OFF!!! The banks!! And finally, if you are more comfortable in another setting, that is fine and I wish you the best. As we don't denigrate you, we wonder why you feel the need to denigrate us?? And now for Stuart You asked for a reference for us. Well, as you failed here and are now doing something else (which you never state what that is) you don't really want nor need anything from us. So to ask for it is just another of your subtufuges to try to paint us in a negative light. Paul Brooklyn

It will be my pleasure to respond to the worthless postings by Cullen and Stuart. Let us start with Cullen: You titled your posting: 48% of citigroup is Primerica...NOT. And then added: I am never surprised when a PFS rep pulls a figure like this out of his hat. I would like to see Citigroups annual statement that supports this claim. I am of the opinion that Citi could lose PFS tomorrow and not feel a thing. I answer: From the 2003 (I will post 2004 as soon as it is available) financials and 10K submitted to the government (so no matter whatever bullsh*t is posted here, this is what has been declared UNDER LAW and penalty of prosecution.) CitiBank NA $7,361 (million) Primerica $2,121 (million) That equates to 28.8% (I post this as I disagreed with the 48% number [based on this report] but I agree with Bob's enthusiasm [and I ask Bob to direct me to where the 48% comes from]). So I present a documented, published number. But I will state that for Primerica to contribute almost 1/3 of revenue of one the world's largest corporation is very OUTSTANDING. So to those who are negative, GET OVER IT. You posted: I was a PFS rep for a couple of years before I decided to move into real financial planning as a career. Here is what I know about the company. The own your own business line is a lie. Ay PFS a rep does not own his clients or his sales team, the company does. I answer: As with many of the postings here, there is a snippet of truth and the rest is not true. First, I wish you well in your new career. As you are now a competitor of ours, I find your negativism a bit disingenuous. So stop the completely wrong garbage about owning your own business. Once you are at the Senior VP level you can sell your business. If you can sell it you own it, no matter what lies you state. However, I will agree that we are captive agents (that is the industry's term and not a negative term). But if you are making money here, why would you leave? You leave only if you a failing!!! You Post: A rep leaving the company has to abide by no contact clauses and no replacement clauses that extend 2 or more years. Therefore you do not "own" anything. I answer: HELLO. WAKE UP!!! Most corporations and ALL sales organizations have No Compete clauses!!!!! That is normal business. But you and others often list normal business practices as Primerica negatives. You Post: Upon promotion to RVP(regional Vice Pres.) a rep must give one or more of his best producing legs to his upline. I have seen this policy crush an otherwise strong business. I answer: This is an internal issue. I understand this and I, and others who are ethical, have discussed the transition to RVP so that the (our) organization continues to be strong. The short-sighted RVPs who did what you stated only hurt themselves. You posted: The analysis (FNA) they do is not a financial plan (it saya so right on the front page) but rather it is a sales tool that while it does do a fair job at savings and debt pay off projections it is designed to make a client scared enough about his situation to buy a product. The philosophy at PFS is a one size fits all program that says "term insurance and mutual funds will make you financially independent". Well a financial strategy is way more than that. I answer: This diatribe is stupid beyond belief. We always state that, as we are not CFA's (which requires a separate certification and explains the disclaimer [WOW we tell the truth!!!!]), we can not state that this is FP. However it is an extremely good tool to help a client map out their future. You intimation that we only discuss Term Insurance and Mutual Funds is absolutely wrong and shows how uninformed you are. We also discuss debt management, tuition planning for the client's children, emergency fund planning, retirement planning, legal protection, and long term health care. So wake up and smell the financial planning. I continue: The rest of your garbage is just that. You misstate the insurance costs without comparing the attributes that are included in ours and not included in others (Guarantee renewable, disability waiver, etc.). You also don't state that most quotes for Preferred-Plus discounted rates are never available and that (as I see time and time again) that the final rates quoted are equal or actually more than ours. You misstate the cost of the SMART loan without taking into account the true cost of borrowing. For example, let us assume a customer prepays $100,000 on a mortgage. One would expect that the next payment would have more of the principle applied. GUESS WHAT!! With an amortized mortgage, that next payment would charge you the same amount of interest as if you didn't prepay $100,000. Guess what, YOU HAVE BEEN OVERCHARGED. RIPPED-OFFED!!! But there are lots of posts here against us when there should be lots against the ones WHO ARE RIPPING YOU OFF!!! The banks!! And finally, if you are more comfortable in another setting, that is fine and I wish you the best. As we don't denigrate you, we wonder why you feel the need to denigrate us?? And now for Stuart You asked for a reference for us. Well, as you failed here and are now doing something else (which you never state what that is) you don't really want nor need anything from us. So to ask for it is just another of your subtufuges to try to paint us in a negative light. Paul Brooklyn

It will be my pleasure to respond to the worthless postings by Cullen and Stuart. Let us start with Cullen: You titled your posting: 48% of citigroup is Primerica...NOT. And then added: I am never surprised when a PFS rep pulls a figure like this out of his hat. I would like to see Citigroups annual statement that supports this claim. I am of the opinion that Citi could lose PFS tomorrow and not feel a thing. I answer: From the 2003 (I will post 2004 as soon as it is available) financials and 10K submitted to the government (so no matter whatever bullsh*t is posted here, this is what has been declared UNDER LAW and penalty of prosecution.) CitiBank NA $7,361 (million) Primerica $2,121 (million) That equates to 28.8% (I post this as I disagreed with the 48% number [based on this report] but I agree with Bob's enthusiasm [and I ask Bob to direct me to where the 48% comes from]). So I present a documented, published number. But I will state that for Primerica to contribute almost 1/3 of revenue of one the world's largest corporation is very OUTSTANDING. So to those who are negative, GET OVER IT. You posted: I was a PFS rep for a couple of years before I decided to move into real financial planning as a career. Here is what I know about the company. The own your own business line is a lie. Ay PFS a rep does not own his clients or his sales team, the company does. I answer: As with many of the postings here, there is a snippet of truth and the rest is not true. First, I wish you well in your new career. As you are now a competitor of ours, I find your negativism a bit disingenuous. So stop the completely wrong garbage about owning your own business. Once you are at the Senior VP level you can sell your business. If you can sell it you own it, no matter what lies you state. However, I will agree that we are captive agents (that is the industry's term and not a negative term). But if you are making money here, why would you leave? You leave only if you a failing!!! You Post: A rep leaving the company has to abide by no contact clauses and no replacement clauses that extend 2 or more years. Therefore you do not "own" anything. I answer: HELLO. WAKE UP!!! Most corporations and ALL sales organizations have No Compete clauses!!!!! That is normal business. But you and others often list normal business practices as Primerica negatives. You Post: Upon promotion to RVP(regional Vice Pres.) a rep must give one or more of his best producing legs to his upline. I have seen this policy crush an otherwise strong business. I answer: This is an internal issue. I understand this and I, and others who are ethical, have discussed the transition to RVP so that the (our) organization continues to be strong. The short-sighted RVPs who did what you stated only hurt themselves. You posted: The analysis (FNA) they do is not a financial plan (it saya so right on the front page) but rather it is a sales tool that while it does do a fair job at savings and debt pay off projections it is designed to make a client scared enough about his situation to buy a product. The philosophy at PFS is a one size fits all program that says "term insurance and mutual funds will make you financially independent". Well a financial strategy is way more than that. I answer: This diatribe is stupid beyond belief. We always state that, as we are not CFA's (which requires a separate certification and explains the disclaimer [WOW we tell the truth!!!!]), we can not state that this is FP. However it is an extremely good tool to help a client map out their future. You intimation that we only discuss Term Insurance and Mutual Funds is absolutely wrong and shows how uninformed you are. We also discuss debt management, tuition planning for the client's children, emergency fund planning, retirement planning, legal protection, and long term health care. So wake up and smell the financial planning. I continue: The rest of your garbage is just that. You misstate the insurance costs without comparing the attributes that are included in ours and not included in others (Guarantee renewable, disability waiver, etc.). You also don't state that most quotes for Preferred-Plus discounted rates are never available and that (as I see time and time again) that the final rates quoted are equal or actually more than ours. You misstate the cost of the SMART loan without taking into account the true cost of borrowing. For example, let us assume a customer prepays $100,000 on a mortgage. One would expect that the next payment would have more of the principle applied. GUESS WHAT!! With an amortized mortgage, that next payment would charge you the same amount of interest as if you didn't prepay $100,000. Guess what, YOU HAVE BEEN OVERCHARGED. RIPPED-OFFED!!! But there are lots of posts here against us when there should be lots against the ones WHO ARE RIPPING YOU OFF!!! The banks!! And finally, if you are more comfortable in another setting, that is fine and I wish you the best. As we don't denigrate you, we wonder why you feel the need to denigrate us?? And now for Stuart You asked for a reference for us. Well, as you failed here and are now doing something else (which you never state what that is) you don't really want nor need anything from us. So to ask for it is just another of your subtufuges to try to paint us in a negative light. Paul Brooklyn

It will be my pleasure to respond to the worthless postings by Cullen and Stuart. Let us start with Cullen: You titled your posting: 48% of citigroup is Primerica...NOT. And then added: I am never surprised when a PFS rep pulls a figure like this out of his hat. I would like to see Citigroups annual statement that supports this claim. I am of the opinion that Citi could lose PFS tomorrow and not feel a thing. I answer: From the 2003 (I will post 2004 as soon as it is available) financials and 10K submitted to the government (so no matter whatever bullsh*t is posted here, this is what has been declared UNDER LAW and penalty of prosecution.) CitiBank NA $7,361 (million) Primerica $2,121 (million) That equates to 28.8% (I post this as I disagreed with the 48% number [based on this report] but I agree with Bob's enthusiasm [and I ask Bob to direct me to where the 48% comes from]). So I present a documented, published number. But I will state that for Primerica to contribute almost 1/3 of revenue of one the world's largest corporation is very OUTSTANDING. So to those who are negative, GET OVER IT. You posted: I was a PFS rep for a couple of years before I decided to move into real financial planning as a career. Here is what I know about the company. The own your own business line is a lie. Ay PFS a rep does not own his clients or his sales team, the company does. I answer: As with many of the postings here, there is a snippet of truth and the rest is not true. First, I wish you well in your new career. As you are now a competitor of ours, I find your negativism a bit disingenuous. So stop the completely wrong garbage about owning your own business. Once you are at the Senior VP level you can sell your business. If you can sell it you own it, no matter what lies you state. However, I will agree that we are captive agents (that is the industry's term and not a negative term). But if you are making money here, why would you leave? You leave only if you a failing!!! You Post: A rep leaving the company has to abide by no contact clauses and no replacement clauses that extend 2 or more years. Therefore you do not "own" anything. I answer: HELLO. WAKE UP!!! Most corporations and ALL sales organizations have No Compete clauses!!!!! That is normal business. But you and others often list normal business practices as Primerica negatives. You Post: Upon promotion to RVP(regional Vice Pres.) a rep must give one or more of his best producing legs to his upline. I have seen this policy crush an otherwise strong business. I answer: This is an internal issue. I understand this and I, and others who are ethical, have discussed the transition to RVP so that the (our) organization continues to be strong. The short-sighted RVPs who did what you stated only hurt themselves. You posted: The analysis (FNA) they do is not a financial plan (it saya so right on the front page) but rather it is a sales tool that while it does do a fair job at savings and debt pay off projections it is designed to make a client scared enough about his situation to buy a product. The philosophy at PFS is a one size fits all program that says "term insurance and mutual funds will make you financially independent". Well a financial strategy is way more than that. I answer: This diatribe is stupid beyond belief. We always state that, as we are not CFA's (which requires a separate certification and explains the disclaimer [WOW we tell the truth!!!!]), we can not state that this is FP. However it is an extremely good tool to help a client map out their future. You intimation that we only discuss Term Insurance and Mutual Funds is absolutely wrong and shows how uninformed you are. We also discuss debt management, tuition planning for the client's children, emergency fund planning, retirement planning, legal protection, and long term health care. So wake up and smell the financial planning. I continue: The rest of your garbage is just that. You misstate the insurance costs without comparing the attributes that are included in ours and not included in others (Guarantee renewable, disability waiver, etc.). You also don't state that most quotes for Preferred-Plus discounted rates are never available and that (as I see time and time again) that the final rates quoted are equal or actually more than ours. You misstate the cost of the SMART loan without taking into account the true cost of borrowing. For example, let us assume a customer prepays $100,000 on a mortgage. One would expect that the next payment would have more of the principle applied. GUESS WHAT!! With an amortized mortgage, that next payment would charge you the same amount of interest as if you didn't prepay $100,000. Guess what, YOU HAVE BEEN OVERCHARGED. RIPPED-OFFED!!! But there are lots of posts here against us when there should be lots against the ones WHO ARE RIPPING YOU OFF!!! The banks!! And finally, if you are more comfortable in another setting, that is fine and I wish you the best. As we don't denigrate you, we wonder why you feel the need to denigrate us?? And now for Stuart You asked for a reference for us. Well, as you failed here and are now doing something else (which you never state what that is) you don't really want nor need anything from us. So to ask for it is just another of your subtufuges to try to paint us in a negative light. Paul Brooklyn

On the basis of the following: "We have been in business for 27 years in North America and have recently started expanding into Europe. We are a subsidiary of Citi Group, the largest Financial Services company in the world. We are the Primary marketing division for Citi Group, & We acount for 48% of Citi Groups Bottom Line, representing our sister companies, such as Smith Barney, Travelers Life & Annuity, CitiCorp Trust Bank; FSB, Citi Bank, Citi Financial, & CitiGroup Asset Management. Do you really think the largest, most repected Financial Services Co. in the world would put their Stamp of Approval, much lest invest their money in, a pyramid, MLM, rip-off scam, Etc.?" I'd rather work for Citigroup then because they sound much more impressive than Primerica (do you think I can get a reference from Primerica? Hee hee)

I am never surprised when a PFS rep pulls a figure like this out of his hat. I would like to see Citigroups annual statement that supports this claim. I am of the opinion that Citi could lose PFS tomorrow and not feel a thing. I was a PFS rep for a couple of years before I decided to move into real financial planning as a career. Here is what I know about the company. The own your own business line is a lie. Ay PFS a rep does not own his clients or his sales team, the company does. A rep leaving the company has to abide by no contact clauses and no replacement clauses that extend 2 or more years. Therefore you do not "own" anything. Upon promotion to RVP(regional Vice Pres.) a rep must give one or more of his best producing legs to his upline. I have seen this policy crush an otherwise strong business. The analysis (FNA) they do is not a financial plan (it saya so right on the front page) but rather it is a sales tool that while it does do a fair job at savings and debt pay off projections it is designed to make a client scared enough about his situation to buy a product. The philosophy at PFS is a one size fits all program that says "term insurance and mutual funds will make you financially independent". Well a financial strategy is way more than that. The insurance is expensive and not competitive in the market. The unisex rate tables make it particularly expensive for single women. Where most insurance companies have 6 or more underwriting categories, PFS has only 3 so many people pay more than they should. The mortgages are routinely 2-3 points higher than the market. The only thing different about them is the average daily interest calculation instead of a monthly average used by most lenders. This allows for slightly more principle to be paid at the very beginning of the loan but this difference disappears as the loan matures and is then indistinguishable from any other loan. Don't let the bi weekly payment fool you either. ANY bank or broker will let you do this. The mutual funds have a 5% sales fee. This is the only thing close to market rates that other brokerages charge. There are better options for financial planning (hell, you can do the same thing for yourself with Quicken) And there are certainly financial products that are a better value and offer more flexibility as tools for financial and estate planning. As far as the business opportunity, again there are better ways to get into the financial sevices industry where YOU own your business (clients and sale force) from day one and you are not captive to a company so you are free to find the best mix of products and services for your clients. Feel free to e amil me if you want info on alternetives to PFS

I am thinking about joining Primerica, but have not set up interview, I understand my money will be refunded when I finish licensing. However I am skeptical, I would appreciate it if you or others who work there and are providing rebuttals would tell us your personal experiences rather than reciting what you have been told. Have you made money, would you give us an idea of how much and how many hours, years, work, clients whatever it took to make that money?

I have been with Primerica for about several years. My opinion is that anyone who thinks the company is a pyramid, MLM, or any other type of scam, is just being foolish. You obviously don't have the correct information on our company. So here it is! We have been in business for 27 years in North America and have recently started expanding into Europe. We are a subsidiary of Citi Group, the largest Financial Services company in the world. We are the Primary marketing division for Citi Group, & We acount for 48% of Citi Groups Bottom Line, representing our sister companies, such as Smith Barney, Travelers Life & Annuity, CitiCorp Trust Bank; FSB, Citi Bank, Citi Financial, & CitiGroup Asset Management. Do you really think the largest, most repected Financial Services Co. in the world would put their Stamp of Approval, much lest invest their money in, a pyramid, MLM, rip-off scam, Etc.? I promise you, they have way to much at stake to do something stupid like that. Why do we get the bad name we do then? That's a good question, and there are several reasons, here they are. One, people who have worked for the company will sometimes perpetrate a bad image. The reason? They were not willing to work for something, they are the people who should stay in a job where they get paid to sshow up, and do nothing. Because they don't make it here, they will blame us and try to damage the companies name, rather than taking responsibility for themseleves. We all know these type of people don't we? Two. The companies that we are in competion with. Our company spent less than $5000 on adversitizing last year and issued several billion dollars more face amount of insurance than our largest competitor, who spent 500+ million dollars on advertising. We have mor than $18 billion dollars in assets under management with Smith Barney, our sister company. Our Investment Representatives actually have more assets under management in Smith Barney mutual faunds than their own brokers do. Needless to say, Smith Barney loves us! We tech people the principles they need to get a solid foundation financially. We create controversy in the industry because we show people how to get away from the need for their bank, insurance agents who sell cash value insurance, etc. This company does whats right all the time.

Do you want to know why only 3% of people that work for Primerica only make over 50,000 per year iin the USA? That is becasue the other 97% do get off there butts to work. They think when they come into this business it is a quick way to make it rich. That is true if you are willing to work hard. This is not a get rich quick scam. This is a very simple business. You can make a lot of money if you work really hard for 3-5 years. Then you will never have to work again. And if you think Primerica is a scam, then you are talking to the wrong peple in the business. Look at who owns Primerica. Citibank whick is one of the largest bacnks in the USA. Wold they invest in a scam? I don' think so!

Stay away from this company. Everyone I know who has ever tried it has suffered miserably. They won't just bankrupt you - they will make you believe that it should happen. I hope I get this rebuttal in before what ever loser keeps saying to contact Donna guilmette for a refund. Get a life. Read up on this sight and the MLM survivors page if you have questions about scamerica whoops! I meant primerica. Good luck to you. Jon