- Report: #284150
Complaint Review: Lincoln Logs International LLC - Kannapolis, NC North Carolina
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Lincoln Logs International LLC
6000 Lumber Lane Kannapolis, NC, 28083 North Carolina, U.S.A.
Phone:
800-848-3310
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Lincoln Logs International, LLC LLI used deception and fraud and is completely unprofessional Kannapolis, NC North Carolina
*Author of original report: Lincoln Logs International
*Author of original report: Lincoln Logs International
*Author of original report: Lincoln Logs International
*Author of original report: Lincoln Logs International
*Author of original report: Lincoln Logs International
*REBUTTAL Owner of company: CEO
*REBUTTAL Individual responds: DO NOT BUSINESS WITH LINCOLN LOGS INTERNATIONAL
*Consumer Comment: Former Lincoln Logs Customer...
After reading Mr. Shoff's letter dated October 22, 2007, I realized Mr. Shoff is trying to state all discussions of December 11, 2006, never occured. My Arbitration case against Lincoln Logs International, LLC to perform to industry standards really should have been a sales fraud and deception case. I was never shown or provided the LLI manual until January 25, 2007 and section T-8 was never disclosed. The LLI manual is over 1,000 pages. My desire to build a business selling log cabins and complete this model cabin clouded my judgment to see the Dealership Agreement was signed because LLI used deceptive sales tactics, fraudulent information and lack of full disclosure to gain my signature.
Below are new facts the Arbitrator needs to be informed of because of LLI's failure to meet the Arbitration requirements:
1. I signed the Dealership Agreement, December 11, 2006, with LLI to gain a business Dealership to sell log cabins and for a log cabin to be built on my lot at 8,000 ft elevation in Coconino County, Arizona to use as a model cabin to secure additional sales. LLI was made fully aware of my business plan to use the cabin as a model home to generate new sales in the Coconino, Maricopa, Pima, Navajo, and Apache Counties in Arizona, just as LLI used the Laurel model during the December 11th meeting. I disclosed this business plan to Shelton J. Shirley, Steve Austin and Richard Shoff on December 11, 2006.
2. My signature on the LLI Dealership Agreement was obtained by complete fraud, deception and lack of full disclosure by LLI. On December 11, 2006, I signed the Dealership Agreement after a four-hour face to face meeting where many of the issues that LLI has failed to-date were discussed in detail with Shelton J. Shirley, Steve Austin, Kevin Shoaf and Richard Shoff. The only documents LLI provided up to December 11, 2006, was the LLI catalog, dealership application, dealership outline, and dealership agreement. I signed based on the information provided during the December 11, 2006, meeting and the only documents provided up to December 11, 2006. The information was completely fraudulent from the logs can meet 19% moisture content, to LLI provides complete plans for all permits required. LLI's only disclosed on December 11, 2006, and I quote, A local engineer with a State seal maybe required to review the LLI plans to meet any local code changes.
3. The 3 inch-3 ring binder that LLI calls the Manual was never provided or disclosed until January 25, 2007, some 45 days after the dealership agreement was signed. Even LLI admitted during Arbitration, I was not provided the manual until January 25, 2007. LLI is now using the manual saying the information was disclosed. However, I have a witness to both meetings of December 11, 2006 and January 25-26, 2007 that the information regarding the plans was never disclosed at either meeting and actually fraudulent information was presented at both meetings. This is the reason I was not able to locate the page T-8 stating LLI designs to North Carolina Uniform Residential Building Code until after the, September 6, 2007, Arbitration case because I only used the documents provided up to, December 11, 2006, the signing date of the Dealership Agreement. I sent Heath Tinley a fax detailing a number of items from the manual the day after the Arbitration hearing that disclosed a number of items that Mr. Shoff and Mr. Austin presented incorrectly during the Arbitration case. However, the information was not allowed to be present the Arbitrator.
I hope now because of these continuing LLI delays that the Arbitrator can review these critical failures to disclose at the time of signature to over turn the ruling and grant a full refund. I also believe LLI has known this entire time their logs could not be used in Arizona due to their past dealer Arizona Log Homes of Fountain Hills, Arizona that closed. Still no corrected plans as of October 24, 2007.
1. Until the load bearing for the LLI beams supporting the floor of the loft area are on the plans they are not acceptable for permit review.
2. I have sent emails, faxes, phone calls and letters to LLI and the BBB nearly every other day since September 12, 2007, requesting the documents LLI states were sent October 4, 2007. This is over 30 days since the Arbitration hearing when Mr. Shoff stated the load bearing will be completed in 3 to 4 days on September 6, 2007.
3. Mr. Shoff was 100% informed of the load bearing for the LLI beams supporting the floor of the loft area was required on September 6, 2007. Mr. Shoff is also 100% informed on March 30, 2007 and September 6, 2007 that the photocopy of a hand written calculation is unacceptable for the permit process. The load bearing for the LLI beams of the loft area must be on the PLANS in type not hand written. THIS IS PAINFULLY CLEAR.
4. This is another 35 days delay 100% the result by LLI's failure to respond to any email, fax, letter or phone call. This is completely unacceptable business practice. LLI has 100% ZERO Customer Service and no one should have this experience.
5. LLI clearly should not be a Better Business member with this type of contract, business practice of delay, failure to complete tasks, and failure to provide customer service. The BBB should be embarrassed for allowing LLI to remain a member. LLI is clearly embarrassing the good name of North Carolina businesses with this childish performance.
6. No lumber can be cut or shipped until LLI provides the documents needed to meet permitting. Additionally permitting is a 6 week approval process if the LLI documents are correct. Then HOA Approval is a 4 week process after permit approval. Winter will be in full swing at the 8,000 ft home site so no foundation work will begin until May 2008 at the earliest. The foundation work and curing will be an additional 30 to 60 days depending on weather. For LLI to state lumber is ready is 100% childish and shows no experience in building knowledge. If lumber is more then 30 days old from cutting when I send TPI, Inc. to inspect the lumber before shipping from NC, the load will be 100% rejected and a request for full refund plus damages due to 1 year delay will be filed against LLI. This is my written notice for LLI filed with the BBB.
7. This issue will be completed only when LLI provides all that is required to 100% quality control or refunds 100% of the purchase price. LLI has illustrated numerous times that LLI cannot provide 100% quality controlled services or product. This has been shown in numerous areas of work on both the Nevada and the Madison cabins.
8. The plans LLI states were shipped October 4, 2007, I believe arrived at the Arizona office October 9, 2007. I am out of town and will not be able to review these plans for a few days until I return from my business trip.
9. Clearly it is in LLI best interest to refund 100% of this purchase as LLI had to do for the failure to perform on the Nevada cabin but LLI continues to dig a deeper and deeper hole trying to save this single sale shows how desperate LLI as a company is for a single sale. Any respectable log company would have refunded the purchase price in June 2007 when the customer has to write a letter after 15 phones conversations of unacceptable work was reported to Steve Austin and Kevin Shoaf.
Ccc
long Beach, California
U.S.A.
Below are new facts the Arbitrator needs to be informed of because of LLI's failure to meet the Arbitration requirements:
1. I signed the Dealership Agreement, December 11, 2006, with LLI to gain a business Dealership to sell log cabins and for a log cabin to be built on my lot at 8,000 ft elevation in Coconino County, Arizona to use as a model cabin to secure additional sales. LLI was made fully aware of my business plan to use the cabin as a model home to generate new sales in the Coconino, Maricopa, Pima, Navajo, and Apache Counties in Arizona, just as LLI used the Laurel model during the December 11th meeting. I disclosed this business plan to Shelton J. Shirley, Steve Austin and Richard Shoff on December 11, 2006.
2. My signature on the LLI Dealership Agreement was obtained by complete fraud, deception and lack of full disclosure by LLI. On December 11, 2006, I signed the Dealership Agreement after a four-hour face to face meeting where many of the issues that LLI has failed to-date were discussed in detail with Shelton J. Shirley, Steve Austin, Kevin Shoaf and Richard Shoff. The only documents LLI provided up to December 11, 2006, was the LLI catalog, dealership application, dealership outline, and dealership agreement. I signed based on the information provided during the December 11, 2006, meeting and the only documents provided up to December 11, 2006. The information was completely fraudulent from the logs can meet 19% moisture content, to LLI provides complete plans for all permits required. LLI's only disclosed on December 11, 2006, and I quote, A local engineer with a State seal maybe required to review the LLI plans to meet any local code changes.
3. The 3 inch-3 ring binder that LLI calls the Manual was never provided or disclosed until January 25, 2007, some 45 days after the dealership agreement was signed. Even LLI admitted during Arbitration, I was not provided the manual until January 25, 2007. LLI is now using the manual saying the information was disclosed. However, I have a witness to both meetings of December 11, 2006 and January 25-26, 2007 that the information regarding the plans was never disclosed at either meeting and actually fraudulent information was presented at both meetings. This is the reason I was not able to locate the page T-8 stating LLI designs to North Carolina Uniform Residential Building Code until after the, September 6, 2007, Arbitration case because I only used the documents provided up to, December 11, 2006, the signing date of the Dealership Agreement. I sent Heath Tinley a fax detailing a number of items from the manual the day after the Arbitration hearing that disclosed a number of items that Mr. Shoff and Mr. Austin presented incorrectly during the Arbitration case. However, the information was not allowed to be present the Arbitrator.
I hope now because of these continuing LLI delays that the Arbitrator can review these critical failures to disclose at the time of signature to over turn the ruling and grant a full refund. I also believe LLI has known this entire time their logs could not be used in Arizona due to their past dealer Arizona Log Homes of Fountain Hills, Arizona that closed. Still no corrected plans as of October 24, 2007.
1. Until the load bearing for the LLI beams supporting the floor of the loft area are on the plans they are not acceptable for permit review.
2. I have sent emails, faxes, phone calls and letters to LLI and the BBB nearly every other day since September 12, 2007, requesting the documents LLI states were sent October 4, 2007. This is over 30 days since the Arbitration hearing when Mr. Shoff stated the load bearing will be completed in 3 to 4 days on September 6, 2007.
3. Mr. Shoff was 100% informed of the load bearing for the LLI beams supporting the floor of the loft area was required on September 6, 2007. Mr. Shoff is also 100% informed on March 30, 2007 and September 6, 2007 that the photocopy of a hand written calculation is unacceptable for the permit process. The load bearing for the LLI beams of the loft area must be on the PLANS in type not hand written. THIS IS PAINFULLY CLEAR.
4. This is another 35 days delay 100% the result by LLI's failure to respond to any email, fax, letter or phone call. This is completely unacceptable business practice. LLI has 100% ZERO Customer Service and no one should have this experience.
5. LLI clearly should not be a Better Business member with this type of contract, business practice of delay, failure to complete tasks, and failure to provide customer service. The BBB should be embarrassed for allowing LLI to remain a member. LLI is clearly embarrassing the good name of North Carolina businesses with this childish performance.
6. No lumber can be cut or shipped until LLI provides the documents needed to meet permitting. Additionally permitting is a 6 week approval process if the LLI documents are correct. Then HOA Approval is a 4 week process after permit approval. Winter will be in full swing at the 8,000 ft home site so no foundation work will begin until May 2008 at the earliest. The foundation work and curing will be an additional 30 to 60 days depending on weather. For LLI to state lumber is ready is 100% childish and shows no experience in building knowledge. If lumber is more then 30 days old from cutting when I send TPI, Inc. to inspect the lumber before shipping from NC, the load will be 100% rejected and a request for full refund plus damages due to 1 year delay will be filed against LLI. This is my written notice for LLI filed with the BBB.
7. This issue will be completed only when LLI provides all that is required to 100% quality control or refunds 100% of the purchase price. LLI has illustrated numerous times that LLI cannot provide 100% quality controlled services or product. This has been shown in numerous areas of work on both the Nevada and the Madison cabins.
8. The plans LLI states were shipped October 4, 2007, I believe arrived at the Arizona office October 9, 2007. I am out of town and will not be able to review these plans for a few days until I return from my business trip.
9. Clearly it is in LLI best interest to refund 100% of this purchase as LLI had to do for the failure to perform on the Nevada cabin but LLI continues to dig a deeper and deeper hole trying to save this single sale shows how desperate LLI as a company is for a single sale. Any respectable log company would have refunded the purchase price in June 2007 when the customer has to write a letter after 15 phones conversations of unacceptable work was reported to Steve Austin and Kevin Shoaf.
Ccc
long Beach, California
U.S.A.
8 Updates & Rebuttals
Frank
Newport,Michigan,
USA
Former Lincoln Logs Customer...
#2Consumer Comment
Thu, February 25, 2016
My wife and I and several friends built a modified "Wyoming" model in 1987-1988. Having a very limited budget (and being much younger than most builders) we did everything ourselves except the sewer under the road, the poured foundation, and mudding of the 96 sheets of drywall. It was a monumental task. Building a log home from a kit is not for non-physical persons. We lived in our Lincoln Log Home for 8 years until the area turned into a subdivision. The current third owners love the home and it still looks wonderful after all this time. Now, my wife and I, almost 30 years later, are prepairing to build another one because we enjoyed the experience of building and living in one so much.
All that being said our experience with Lincoln Log Homes International was very professional and helpful. I really don't understand the complaints listed. We were told from the beginning that the modeled window openings may or may not meet local fire egress codes, etc., and that it was >MY< responsibility to verify all local building codes would be met with before the kit was assembled. This proved to be true and several alterations to the plans were necessary before kit assembly.
The exact weight of the logs is readily available and simple math can ascertain the required load data for the logs. Since the roofs are built by the constructor there is no way LLI can know the loading details. LLI also makes it abundantly clear that they assemble log home kits, NOT complete homes. Licensed builders or the homeowners are required to build these homes strictly to code and have the ultimate responsibility to meet all appropriatelocal codes.
The complaint sounds like someone (maybe a competitor?) who thought it would be cool to build and live in a log home but didn't realize or wasn't willing to put forth the required time and effort to make sure everything was right. In the end all of my calculations and working with LLI allowed them to build my kit within 1/4 inch of my already-built foundation and floorplan design. We swung 10 pound sledge hammers 5 hours after work every day and all day on Saturdays for 5 weeks to assemble the logs...Not an easy task. Without hiring contractors it took us a year and a half while still working full-time. A definite commitment is required.
To anyone who is thinking about building their own log home... Lincoln Logs International is a reputible company who does not promise anything they cannot deliver. The amount of work to build one completely by yourself is considerable, but much less expensive. Don't believe the derisive comments you read about LLI. Call or go and visit them in person to find out for yourself.
Frank from Michigan
Ccc
Mesa,Arizona,
U.S.A.
DO NOT BUSINESS WITH LINCOLN LOGS INTERNATIONAL
#3REBUTTAL Individual responds
Fri, November 23, 2007
Mr Shoff is correct the Arbitrator ruled that there is no performace statement in the LLI contract so customers have no legal right to recover damages from LLI failures. PLEASE READ THE ACTUAL REMARKS OF THE ARBITRATOR. 1. Failure to draft customer design requirements, window and door schedule not followed 2. Plans do not meet North Carolina UNIFORM Residential Building Code or any of the 50 States Building Code 3. Plans do not include load bearing of LLI logs 4. Plans do not include HVAC, ELECTRICAL, MECHANICAL, or ROOF LOADING required for permits in most States 5. Customer service is not available from LLI, NOT ONE EMPLOYEE IS AN ENGINEER 6. ARBITRATOR STATES LLI's Dealer Agreement is ownerous and provides no performance standards. DO NOT SIGN IT IS A SCAM 7. Better Business Bureau's ARBITRATOR states LLI is unprofessional 8. Better Business Bureau's ARBITRATOR states LLI's drafting of windows were laughable and childish see pic above 9. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI's Plans can not be used for permitting 10. DO YOU NEED ANYMORE REASONS Please see http://www.usloghomesllc.com for direct link to the actual BBB case and many others complaints on LINCOLN LOGS INTERNATIONAL, LLC of KANNAPOLIS, North Carolina
Lincoln Logs International
Kannapolis,North Carolina,
U.S.A.
CEO
#4REBUTTAL Owner of company
Tue, November 20, 2007
In reviewing your website, Mr. Charles Mandela has posted false comments in regards to our Company, as well as employees of the facility. Mandela lost a legally binding Arbitration hearing conducted the Greater Charlotte of North Carolina Better Business Bureau. Below is the arbitrator's final decision dated 11/02/07 where he found Lincoln Logs not at fault nor in breach of agreement. In the letter dated October 22, 2007 to the Better Business Bureau, that Mandela is referring to, no where does Mr. Shoff indicate that the discussion of December 11, 2006 didn't take place In fact the letter in question is in regards to questions Mandela brought up after legal binding arbitration. You can go to the BBB website and view the entire contents of this complaint in its entirety. You will see that the statements made in this report are completely false and deceptive. Mr. Mandela has now had two (2) opportunities to present his facts to an arbitrator. Both times the arbitrator found in favor of Lincoln Logs International. 11/2/2007 After reviewing the supplied transactions posted on the website to date, I supplement my decision with the following: No mistake in facts or other incorrect data from the hearing or my decision is found or referenced by either party. A full opportunity to present its side of the dispute was provide to both parties during the hearing process. Substantial testimony and evidence was produced. The decision to deny Claimants request for refund on the order for his Madison log kit is denied. The decision state that Defendant would voluntarily provide added load bearing comments as offered in the hearing. It provide the notes as well as going further and having them sealed by a Licensed Engineer. Defendant is not required by any agreement or this decision to provide full permitted plans. The log kit is only one of many trades and phases of a total construction of the home. Defendant has complied with terms of the Purchase and Franchise Agreement. No evidence exits that Defendant is in breech of any agreement. Sincerely, H. Kevin Levine Arbitration was conducted by Mr. H. Kevin Levine through the Greater Charlotte of North Carolina Better Business Bureau. To confirm the accuracy of the above information, please see the Better Business Bureau website case #360320.
Ccc
long Beach,California,
U.S.A.
Lincoln Logs International
#5Author of original report
Sun, November 11, 2007
10 REASONS NOT TO PURCHASE FROM LLI 1. Failure to draft customer design requirements 2. Plans do not meet North Carolina Residential Building Code or any of the 50 States Building Code 3. Plans do not include load bearing of LLI logs 4. Plans do not include HVAC, ELECTRICAL, MECHANICAL, or ROOF LOADING required for permits in most States 5. Customer service is not available from LLI, NOT ONE EMPLOYEE IS AN ENGINEER 6. LLI's Dealer Agreement is ownerous and provides no performance standards. DO NOT SIGN 7. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI is unprofessional 8. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI's drafting of windows were laughable and childish 9. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI's Plans can not be used for permitting 10. DO YOU NEED ANYMORE REASONS FULL COMPLAINT CLICK More complaints New England RIP-OFF West Coast RIP-OFF Mid-Atlantic RIP-OFF Mid-Atlantic RIP-OFF West Coast RIP-OFF
Ccc
long Beach,California,
U.S.A.
Lincoln Logs International
#6Author of original report
Sun, November 11, 2007
10 REASONS NOT TO PURCHASE FROM LLI 1. Failure to draft customer design requirements 2. Plans do not meet North Carolina Residential Building Code or any of the 50 States Building Code 3. Plans do not include load bearing of LLI logs 4. Plans do not include HVAC, ELECTRICAL, MECHANICAL, or ROOF LOADING required for permits in most States 5. Customer service is not available from LLI, NOT ONE EMPLOYEE IS AN ENGINEER 6. LLI's Dealer Agreement is ownerous and provides no performance standards. DO NOT SIGN 7. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI is unprofessional 8. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI's drafting of windows were laughable and childish 9. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI's Plans can not be used for permitting 10. DO YOU NEED ANYMORE REASONS FULL COMPLAINT CLICK More complaints New England RIP-OFF West Coast RIP-OFF Mid-Atlantic RIP-OFF Mid-Atlantic RIP-OFF West Coast RIP-OFF
Ccc
long Beach,California,
U.S.A.
Lincoln Logs International
#7Author of original report
Sun, November 11, 2007
10 REASONS NOT TO PURCHASE FROM LLI 1. Failure to draft customer design requirements 2. Plans do not meet North Carolina Residential Building Code or any of the 50 States Building Code 3. Plans do not include load bearing of LLI logs 4. Plans do not include HVAC, ELECTRICAL, MECHANICAL, or ROOF LOADING required for permits in most States 5. Customer service is not available from LLI, NOT ONE EMPLOYEE IS AN ENGINEER 6. LLI's Dealer Agreement is ownerous and provides no performance standards. DO NOT SIGN 7. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI is unprofessional 8. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI's drafting of windows were laughable and childish 9. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI's Plans can not be used for permitting 10. DO YOU NEED ANYMORE REASONS FULL COMPLAINT CLICK More complaints New England RIP-OFF West Coast RIP-OFF Mid-Atlantic RIP-OFF Mid-Atlantic RIP-OFF West Coast RIP-OFF
Ccc
long Beach,California,
U.S.A.
Lincoln Logs International
#8Author of original report
Sun, November 11, 2007
10 REASONS NOT TO PURCHASE FROM LLI 1. Failure to draft customer design requirements 2. Plans do not meet North Carolina Residential Building Code or any of the 50 States Building Code 3. Plans do not include load bearing of LLI logs 4. Plans do not include HVAC, ELECTRICAL, MECHANICAL, or ROOF LOADING required for permits in most States 5. Customer service is not available from LLI, NOT ONE EMPLOYEE IS AN ENGINEER 6. LLI's Dealer Agreement is ownerous and provides no performance standards. DO NOT SIGN 7. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI is unprofessional 8. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI's drafting of windows were laughable and childish 9. Better Business Bureau's Arbitrator states LLI's Plans can not be used for permitting 10. DO YOU NEED ANYMORE REASONS FULL COMPLAINT CLICK More complaints New England RIP-OFF West Coast RIP-OFF Mid-Atlantic RIP-OFF Mid-Atlantic RIP-OFF West Coast RIP-OFF
Ccc
long Beach,California,
U.S.A.
Lincoln Logs International
#9Author of original report
Sun, November 11, 2007
Complete rip-off company NO ENGINEERS AT THE COMPANY NO CUSTOMER SERVICE CONTRACT IS A COMPLETE FRAUD NOT NOT DO BUSINESS WITH THIS COMPANY FOR ANY REASON
