Complaint Review: Oratel Customer Contact Centre - Monteal Quebec

As far as I can tell, all of these responses are from employees or mortgage brokers who were ripped off. I have a question from the other side of the coin. How do you get these people to stop calling??? They call monthly trying to get us to sign up for a new mortgage. We don't want or need one. They have the name wrong, and have started threatening! They have threatened my mother that she had better go find ***, who does not exist, or else. No I don't know or else what. They have also screamed at her, hung up on her, and called over and over in one sitting. PLEASE HELP! Is there anything I can do to make them stop?

I once worked for World Wide Source, Oratel etc., but left after it became apparent that the organization was not what it claimed to be. I won't go through the same information about the directory and collection scams. I was prompted to write this after hearing some disturbing information from people who are currently working for the company-operating under yet another name of course. This is the lowest of the low. I'm told that there are now employees who are using personal information gathered from clients in the U.S. to obtain credit cards etc. Do I have any proof of this? No, but I urge everyone who has had contact with this company under any name to get a copy of their credit report. Do it for your own protection or it may end up costing you a lot more than $399.95. Disgusted

I once worked for World Wide Source, Oratel etc., but left after it became apparent that the organization was not what it claimed to be. I won't go through the same information about the directory and collection scams. I was prompted to write this after hearing some disturbing information from people who are currently working for the company-operating under yet another name of course. This is the lowest of the low. I'm told that there are now employees who are using personal information gathered from clients in the U.S. to obtain credit cards etc. Do I have any proof of this? No, but I urge everyone who has had contact with this company under any name to get a copy of their credit report. Do it for your own protection or it may end up costing you a lot more than $399.95. Disgusted

I once worked for World Wide Source, Oratel etc., but left after it became apparent that the organization was not what it claimed to be. I won't go through the same information about the directory and collection scams. I was prompted to write this after hearing some disturbing information from people who are currently working for the company-operating under yet another name of course. This is the lowest of the low. I'm told that there are now employees who are using personal information gathered from clients in the U.S. to obtain credit cards etc. Do I have any proof of this? No, but I urge everyone who has had contact with this company under any name to get a copy of their credit report. Do it for your own protection or it may end up costing you a lot more than $399.95. Disgusted

I have worked for many scam companies before, none of which treated me better. I have been with this company (family) for awhile now. I know there are tons of companies out there who are scam artists, however what gets me is that they are not all like that. Not what they seem, if you will. Yes there some hard asses in this family, however yu get past that and see the truth beneath everything, A JOB!! I don not care who you are or where you work, there will always be discrpencies. So keep in mind all of you EX-EMPLOYEES, they treated you well, and even you can't denie that...

If Oratel is serving you well, great. It is obvious that Pavlos Angilatos (or Pavlos Aggelatos) has many irons in the fire. Some of these companies may be trying to perform a legitimate service for the money. Catherine Angelatou runs this company while her brother Pavlos is off climbing mountains in Nepal. His newest venture seems to be a company called Angel Multimedia (a web design firm). Still, you need to remember how these guys got their start -- ripping off U.S. businesses in a 'directory scam' for $399.95 a pop. Proceed with caution in dealing with these companies.

I read all of the comments on here about Oratel and about how bad they are and they are scams and so on and so on. I can tell you that I used Oratel for some time and they are about as legit a call center as you can find. They always adressed my concerns (called me back in 10 minutes of any email that I sent) Their leads were great (obviously the previous people can't sell) and they record their calls on my leads. If you want to make money then I would suggest you use them, if you want to work at McDonalds and spend your free time beating down a legit company then go ahead and don't burn the fries.

To those of you who think that I am "The Judge" from the above piece of "writing", you are sadly mistaken. Further, in all the time that we worker together it seems that you failed to learn anything about me. I don't give a tinker's d**n about the people that I once worked under; I don't now and I didn't then. But,I am also not the kind of racist, sexist whiner that would post such useless information (as the above!) on the internet. The piece written under the name The Judge was someone's attempt (a poor one at that) to make me appear to be such a person. You see, if you really knew me, you would know that I am too proud of my smarts to be even vaguely associated with something so poorly written. If I had written those nasty comments, they would have been far more subtle, cutting and grammatically correct you d**n twit. Yes, I'm an arrogant son of b***h sometimes but we all have bad qualities, don't we? I've said my bit. Come on Mark and Tanielle, take the plunge and get out of there, it feels great. P.S. Forgive the lateness of my reply (all that job hunting and limited access to a computer). P.P.S. I will never lend my name to these pages hereafter.

I want to first commend Robert Staunton fron VA; Your accuracy & substantiality is accordingly relating to that unpalatable empire called ORATEL! The good ship is as you say, GOING DOWN FAST!!! The current reign of violence toward innocent U.S mortgage brokers is beyond getting out of hand, and the kingdom of management is not only in self-destruction guise but their lack of professionalism & incompleteness sickens me. Day after day I find myself bored and lacking composition mainly due to the imperfection of my management team of Ryan Kidney, Jenn Diamond, and oh yes...not to forget Melinda Ley who has somewhat found her escape route out of distiction by admitting herself in sexual relations with one of Pavlos' young immigrants who also has dirty habits; One specifically is not washing his hands after going to the men's room after handling his little pee pee. Melinda...Whew..guess what? you're safe for a while just as long as you can make your young stud happy, if you know what I mean? As for the rest of us..EVERYONE is looking for work and briskly trying to safe their own sobriety. Let's all get away from this lunacy once and for all and call the Government authorities. WE are ALL so much more smarter than this! Yours ever so truly,

Canada's reputation as a haven for scamsters is due in part because the Competition Bureau lacks money to battle international cartels and telemarketing fraud, according to the bureau's commissioner Konrad von Finckenstein, who says his $34-million budget needs an $11-million boost to attack the problems. Telemarketing fraud in Canada is particularly troublesome for other countries, he said. "We need the money to fight telemarketing scams. It's becoming a real growth industry," he said. "As soon as you put one outfit out of business, a new one appears. It's a plague on the landscape. We're seen as a haven for scamsters. They can locate in Canada and pick on victims in the States, Australia, U.K., etc." On October 3, the Federal Solicitor and RCMP Commissioner launched a new Internet-based tool for reporting economic crimes online (RECOL): www.recol.ca. RECOL is a web-based crime reporting centre offering Canadians a single point of entry to make a complaint on frauds and other white-collar crimes. The complaints will be directed to the appropriate law enforcement agencies and other organizations concerned with white-collar crime. Support for people filing complaints to RECOL is provided by PhoneBusters National Call Centre, which was established 10 years ago to combat deceptive telemarketing. Other partners in the development of RECOL include the Ontario Provincial Police and the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation. The on-line reporting centre was enacted amidst growing accusations that Canada has become a international centre for fraud affecting other countries. Deceptive telemarketing is spreading like a plague in Canada, according to the Canadian Competition Bureau, which works with the police to fight telemarketing fraud as part of its mandate to protect consumers and promote a competitive marketplace. The office has laid 55 charges in connection with deceptive telemarketing in the past few years, and spends half its office's resources fighting it. Canada is becoming a bit of haven for organizations to set up shop and bilk foreigners, including Americans and Europeans, as well as Canadians, through telemarketing scams, says George Bennett, assistant deputy commissioner of competition in the Bureau. He adds that Canadian-based scams are estimated to be netting anywhere between $1 billion to $5 billion from around the world. On any given day, there are 500 to 1,000 boiler rooms operating in Canada. Sources: Federal Solicitor General launches new Internet site for Canadians to report economic crimes. Solicitor General News Release. October 3, 2003. // Lesley Young.Canada becomes fraud haven. Marketing Magazine. August 25/September 1, 2003. // Ken Gray. Von Finckenstein calls for budget increase: Competition Bureau shortfall hurting Canada's reputation. Financial Post (National Post). June 21, 2003: p. FP5.

The captain has no intention of going down with his ship. Read: http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff85350.htm for the details of this seamy saga, in which Pavlos Angelatos is funding the Canadian, United States, State of Georgia, Nepali 'All Greek' Everest Expedition.

Everybody start looking for new work. Trust me, the Good Ship Oratel is sinking. Don't be a hero, only the captain goes down with the ship.

"But when a business spams, it has made its lack of respect clear. When an airline puts the "gotcha" into the fine print of a full-page ad, it's disrespecting consumers' intelligence. Running a business that can survive only by deception and disrespect is not our right -- our right is to realize our dead-end path and pick a better, more respectful business. I believe that it's all about to come crashing down on slash-and-burn marketers. Consumers (especially the business-to-business buyers) are getting ever smarter, cagier, and more sophisticated. They won't sit quietly as marketers steal their time and attention and money." --Seth Godin

I'm glad David (is it a coincidence that both you guys are named David?) from California is getting good leads. I would actually like to think that you ARE trying to provide a service to your clients. The fact that you are an outgrowth of "World Wide Source" makes me suspicious though. Let me clarify your understanding, David and David, I am NOT in the mortgage business. I WAS scammed by "World Wide Source" which is a directory fraud run by the same people. If they had had the decency to leave me alone after that you wouldn't be reading this; but they kept on calling, insisting that I needed to pay them $399.95 more and that somehow I already owed them the money. They were rude, demanding and always trying to make you believe that you were obligated for a recurring charge of $399.95! They never sent a copy of an agreement. They just kept calling and sending their bogus invoices. David from Halifax wants a more credible source for my complaints against his company than the local Halifax free paper. That is a fair request, so here it is: July 19, 2002 Nixon files suit to protect Missouri businesses from "yellow pages" fraud Jefferson City, Mo. Attorney General Jay Nixon today filed suit against a Montreal company, World Wide Source Publishing, for misleading Missouri businesses into buying listings in an imitation "yellow pages" directory for $399.95 each. According to the company's records at least 35,000 businesses nationwide have fallen for the fallacious sales pitch. Nixon said World Wide Source Publishing deceptively promotes its directory as the "yellow pages," leading businesses to believe it is a solicitation for their local yellow pages. In actuality the directory, American Business Index, contains a national listing of businesses and is not distributed to any consumers, but is only given to other businesses that purchase listings in the directory. The directory is also of little value because listings are not geographical, Nixon said. For example, a Missouri business actually using the directory to locate a contractor, would have to go through more than 50 pages of contractor listings arranged alphabetically, rather than by city or state. "Small businesses are being ripped off by this scam at an alarming rate," Nixon said. "They are being charged significant amounts and in some cases are told to renew a listing in this phony yellow pages' that they never even purchased." Nixon also alleges that World Wide Source Publishing has billed many of its customers $399.95 for listings in the American Business Index without obtaining authorization from them. The lawsuit, filed in St. Louis County Circuit Court, asks the court to order an injunction prohibiting the defendant from engaging in any business in Missouri. The suit also seeks restitution to all Missouri businesses who purchased listings in the American Business Index and civil penalties of up to $1,000 for each violation of Missouri's consumer protection laws. Any Missouri business that believes it has been deceived by World Wide Source Publishing can file a complaint online or by calling the Missouri Attorney General's Consumer Protection Hotline at 1-800-392-8222.

We did investigate the "Source." Several Attorney Generals have issued press releases on this company. We have the scoop on their legal troubles in Vermont and Missourri. And yes, we are aware that 'the Coast' is not exactly the Washington Post. But the article Ms. van Berkel wrote cannot be rebuffed by simply discrediting the paper. We can point you to some very dull reading that says the same thing and carries considerably more weight! Most of us in the States who have had to deal with this company have some very legitimate complaints about the way they do business. Perhaps the ever so virtuous, highly ethical Ryan Kidney should do some reading on anti-harassment statutes, fraudulent invoicing and 'do not call' legislation.

To all of the mortgage brokers who read this report, I have a few things to say. First of all Robert, you seem to have a lot to say about the company, why because you do not know how to close a loan. I have been with Oratel for several months and at first the leads were a little slow, but consider this they have hundreds of clients. Out of my 25 leads I closed 17, and have renewed several times and now my own brokers are buying leads. As for this newspaper article, I too was curious so I asked my agent to fax me a copy of the paper. This is not a regular newspaper it is free and is trash. Basically all I read in it was about men and women trying to meet and have sex,nothing more. I own my company and did check out Oratel when at first my leads were slow, upon doing so my agent always returned my calls, and kept me up to date as to the status of my leads. If this company was a fraud there is no way your agents call you back and keep you up to date. Respectfully, Calibar Mortgage

Robert, before you give so much credibility to the Coast's article, perhaps you should investigate the source itself? The Coast is a FREE Halifax newspaper which has a blatant anti-establishment skew. Very much like AdBusters in that sense. Their most widely read sections (from their own reports) are "This is the way we b***h" (where people write in a short letter to cuss out anything from their landlord, to McDonalds) and "Savage Love" (an article about wierd, kinky, and often extremely unhealthy sexual tendancies). Please do feel free to visit their website at www.coast.ns.ca to see for yourself. As such, they are always happy to write a negative article about any company in Halifax. While you are on their website, check out their archives. I have. There isn't a single positive story about a major Halifax employer there. If you are prone to believe everything you read, perhaps you should also consider picking up a copy of this week's National Enquirer... it has a very informing article about JFK Jr's love child from his trip to Europe.

David, I know you wish I'd fall off the planet, but consider for a moment that it was World Wide Source that would not leave me alone. Had your highly ethical friends taken my advice and never called me again I would not be writing this. But the fact that your own Halifax media has basically stated what I already knew, well that is the general perception of your company that you really need to address. All I was asking you to do is prove that your current scam, er... I mean operation is legitimate and provides a service of value. Reputable companies in the States provide testimonials all the time, and I'm SURE a company of value and integrity would have at least a few friends it could count on to vouch for it. OK, show me some POSITIVE articles in the local news media about WWS or Oratel and that will suffice.

First off, yes, I *AM* an ex employee. My REAL name is David Grant, and I was one of 3 people to start the Business Development project for the Halifax office of Oratel. Yes, I resigned of my own accord, to pursue other opportunities. Yes, production problems did come into play in making my decision. The company *is* still fairly new to the business, and any company in start-up mode will have its hickups. I have never worked for a company, large or small, that didn't. Having worked for successful startups before (one particularly was purchased by Yahoo! for more than $400 Million USD), I can vouch that it is no larger a hickup than others I have had the privilege of working for. But I digress. Lets look at the demographics here. The Ex-Employees who have been posting here, seem to have one common thread - they were canned. Yes, there are some who claim to have left of their own vocation, but I highly doubt that, as they are unable to spell their own name correctly. I, on the other hand, have to say that the people working at Oratel at the time of my departure, were for the most part very competent, VERY ETHICAL, and I was/am proud to call them friends and stay in touch with them. Yes, there were times when production of the leads was an issue. I have witnessed many shouting matches between BD agents and management, as well as management and upper management. Jennifer Diamond and Ryan Kidney fought for you, ex-employees, as well as for your clients. Having a manager that sticks up for you and your clients, and is willing to get into a yelling match with their superiors - putting their own job security at risk - is a prime commodity. You should be honored to have worked with such people. Now lets take some time to address Robert Staunton's request - a list of satisfied clients. ARE YOU NUTS? Anybody with any business sense at all would refuse that request for 2 simple reasons: 1) Publishing a list of your clients opens the door for all your competitors to set their sights on stealing your clientele; 2) From your own admission, you have made it your personal vendetta to ruin anyone and everyone even remotely involved with this company. Publishing a list of clientele would potentially - most probably from the looks of things - expose them to all sorts of harassment, not just from you, but from all the other "Ex-Employees" who can't spell their own names right. Would you give a list of your customers to someone who by their own admission is dedicated to ruining you? That wouldn't be too smart would it... The kind of personal attacks and smear tactics used by people on this board is reprehensible. If you have grievances with the way business is done, please do voice it. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Personal attacks against these good people are uncalled for, and only reflect your own lack of integrity.

Note: This article appeared in a Nova Scotia Newspaper. Those of you who think World Wide Source is legitimate need to read it. A call for help by Lis van Berkel World Wide Source, a Montral-based telemarketing company with offices in Halifax and Dartmouth, is not allowed to phone Vermont. Last April, Vermont's Attorney General, William Sorrell, announced that he had settled consumer fraud claims against World Wide Publishing Inc., which is owned by Pavlos Angelatos of Montral and sells listings in a US-marketed business directory. The Attorney General charged Angelatos with violating the Vermont Consumer Fraud Act and fined him a total of $125,000. In his case, Sorrell argued that the Montral-based company WWS used a false Vermont return address while selling-to companies in that state-two-year listings in a business directory called the American Business Index. His case stated that the company further misrepresented itself by: offering "renewals" for new listings; referring to its publication as the Yellow Pages; overstating the circulation of the directory as one million when in fact it is closer to 35,000; billing many customers without their authorization; failing to provide customers with their legally-required three-day right to cancel; and overcharging customers for a 399.95 directory that is of limited value to most businesses. An e-mail from Sorrell's office confirmed that the fine has been paid in full, and that Angelatos has made restitution to Vermont businesses that purchased listings. But WWS is still open for business in HRM. Currently, the company employs about 70 telemarketers in its Dartmouth office on the tenth floor of Queen's Square. Exiting the elevator, I locate a set of large glass doors which open into a reception area, where no sign or logo indicates the company name. "Look for the glass doors," the building security guard told me. "They're the only one up there." I ask the receptionist if I am at World Wide Source. Even she hesitates before saying yes. WWS is actually a company with several monikers-it is variously known as American Solution Information, WWS and also Amerisource, the other company named in the Vermont case. All three companies are owned by Angelatos. The receptionist says she will get someone for me to talk to about WWS. I take a seat in the tattered chair beside a framed poster of a water droplet which states "Attitude is Everything." Behind me is a framed Chronicle-Herald article from October 19, 2000, a few days before WWS opened for business in Nova Scotia. The headline exclaims "New call centre to hire 500-We came for the workforce, not the handouts, Montral firm says." In the article, a WWS vice-president explains that the company preferred Halifax over other Canadian cities because Nova Scotia boasted the most friendly and educated workforce in the country. The company was also boasting, saying that with a $10 per hour starting wage, it paid more than other call centres, plus it had just signed five-year leases on the Queen's Square space and on a smaller space in Purdy's Wharf Tower 1. After waiting several minutes, I am approached by branch supervisor Ryan Kidney who tersely asks me what I want. I left a message for Kidney two weeks earlier, which he never returned. I explain that I am looking for information about the connection between the Dartmouth WWS office and the fine against WWS in the US. Blanching, he asks me to come with him as he walks to a back office with another manager named Melinda Lee. Kidney sits behind a desk and Lee sits between us half-facing me. Neither one invites me to sit and a white-faced Kidney, his eyes tired and angry, says immediately that he will not talk to me about WWS. "I know why you are here and who has been talking to you, and for legal reasons related to that person, I cannot talk to you," he says simply. I push the question about Vermont on him again, but Kidney says I have to talk to the head office in Montral. I ask if that is where I can reach Pavlos Angelatos, and when he says yes, I ask for the phone number, which he writes on a Post-it note. Over the next two weeks, I leave three messages for Angelatos, and none are returned. The most peculiar thing is that the number on Kidney's Post-it is answered by a pre-recorded service which states simply: "You have reached corporate headquarters." Again, no name. I have no idea whether I have reached WWS until I talk to a receptionist (who also doesn't identify her office) but always tells me Angelatos is not in and asks me if I want to leave a message on his voicemail. Nancy Carr-who does not want her real name used for fear of reprisal and because she signed what she calls a "gag order"-sold listings for the American Business Index until late last year. After a series of confrontations with her bosses, Carr was fired for what she says Kidney termed "unprofessional conduct." But, she insists, she wasn't the one behaving unprofessionally. According to Carr, who was approaching two years with the company, it's WWS that crosses the line between professional and unprofessional conduct. She believes the real reason she was fired is that she began to question their business tactics. Prior to being fired, Carr called The Coast to push the paper to cover the story. "We had to tell customers four things," Carr explains. "That we were updating their listing in the American Business Index, a yellow pages directory for American companies. That it's published by World Wide Source. That a listing costs $399.95. And then we asked them: 'Are you authorized to purchase?' And that would be drilled into our heads, sometimes three times a day: 'What do you tell these people? What are the four key points that you have to mention to make a successful order?'" That opening gambit she made 150 to 200 times per day. Carr says that WWS requires that its staff be very aggressive: "We were told that customers might play stupid or pretend not to speak English or pretend to be someone else," says Carr. "But that we can call them back three times in the run of a day. We were told to make concessions, to find ways to make the sale. To tell them that we'd offer them a $99 cancellation fee to never bother them again. And yes, it works!" Carr felt demoralized by having to manipulate people into sales. She questioned her supervisors, and was first moved over to American Solutions Information, which is what WWS calls its collections side, where her morale improved: "I felt refreshed for awhile. But then a man"-another employee in that department-"was fired for standing up and asking how come he was supposed to call a woman who had paid seven times? She told him she had seven cheque numbers for having paid seven times. And he wanted to know why was he supposed to collect for an eighth time?" This scenario is familiar to Dennis French, the accounting manager with a mill in Red Bluff, California called Louisiana-Pacific Corporation. He has refused to pay fees which ASI alleges Louisiana-Pacific owes because he has a large complaint with WWS. He last heard from the company in November, when the WWS representative played back a tape containing a so-called agreement: "We had a new administrative assistant who got a call earlier in the year from World Wide Source," says French. "And they used manipulative language to back her into a corner, asked her if she was responsible for things in the office. But there was no real definite request for anything. Then they said, 'So you can do this?' And she said yes." That ASI is actually the same company as WWS comes as news to French. When Louisiana-Pacific got the WWS invoice, French baulked at paying it, which resulted in a phone call from ASI, which he supposed was an independent collection agency. "I told them I didn't believe the place where they got the account was on the up and up," French says, "and that they might want to think twice about who they do business with." Yet French, who never took his complaint to the Better Business Bureau-unlike more than 2,300 other companies counted on two BBB websites-has some empathy for employees of WWS, like Carr. "It was like we were role-playing," he says. "We were friendly: I was supposed to react and she was supposed to insist. WWS probably thinks that a big corporation can afford to lose a couple of hundred bucks. But the lack of integrity was so obvious, the innuendo. And they were so vague, so I refused. If anything had lead me to say we made a mistake, I would have paid them. But not like this." Another burned client-who works for a construction company in Virginia and who wrote a 2-page letter of complaint to WWS, which Carr also showed me-is not so trusting. She refused even to discuss her grievance when I phoned because, as she put it while hanging up, "I'm not sure you are who you say you are." "Maybe in about 40 to 50 percent of the cases customers actually owe the money. We just try to convince them all that they do," admits Angela Vautour, a current employee of WWS, who also asked me not to use her real name. "I talk to them all day long, and I see that they were misled. They say their secretary was tricked, they were told it was free, I know that." While looking for other work, Vautour is in the difficult position of reviewing tape recorded contracts-like the one that angered French-with lawyers of disgruntled customers. She is also unconvinced of the ABI's value. "I believe a large corporation could benefit from the directory," she says. "But not a beauty salon in Timbuktu." So why would people want to be in the ABI? Basically, they don't when they realize what it is. The ABI is about the size of the Halifax Regional Municipality's phone book, and it purports to serve the business needs of any American company by selling them a listing which can connect them with other businesses across the US. The listings are arranged alphabetically, and are not separated by city or state, which makes the book fairly difficult to use. "We would market to everybody: jewellery people, restaurants, other telemarketers, which I thought was really ironic," explains Carr. "Contractors, solicitors, churches, newspapers, photographers, attorneys-and this is now what's biting the company in the a*s, because all the attorneys that got scammed are now not very happy. They're saying, 'This is a fraudulent bill.'" The ABI's ineffectiveness was not lost on Missouri's attorney general Jay Nixon, who, last July, filed a legal action similar to Vermont's against WWS. In his filing, Nixon called the ABI "of limited, if any, value to most businesses" because it is distributed only to businesses that purchase listings in the directory and not to any customers, making it essentially a vanity publication; and because, in spite of covering a large area, it does not have a geographical index. "For example," Nixon continues, "if a Missouri business actually used the directory to locate a contractor, they would have to go through over 50 pages of contractor listings." Nixon also took issue with their misleading use of the trademarked designation "Yellow Pages." His petition states: "The alleged violations [of the Missouri Merchandise Practices Act] include deceptive representations, and omissions concerning the nature of the products and services being offered, charging customers without authorization and unfair pricing." And like Vermont's attorney general, he states that WWS does not disclose its true address. Finally, Nixon also pointed out that WWS began selling "renewal" listings when it was still a new company in October 2000-which happens to be the month it opened for business in Nova Scotia. The Registry of Joint Stock Companies says that a company called World Wide Source Publishing Inc. registered in Nova Scotia as an intraprovincial corporation in November 2000. All corporations operating in Nova Scotia are legally required to register with Joint Stocks, including those operating intraprovincially. But according to Joint Stocks, WWS's membership was revoked for non-payment in October 2002. Payment was not made under WWS's other names. Non-payment at Joint Stocks should indicate that a company is no longer operating in the province, though clearly World Wide Source is still in business here. The registrar's office says that the usual fine for a company operating in the province without registration is the annual fee multiplied by each day they operate. In the case of an intraprovincial company, that would be $200 per day. Fred Morley, vice-president of the Greater Halifax Partnership, says that his office used to focus more on attracting call centres to Halifax. The Chronicle- Herald story mentioned that the Partnership assisted WWS in 2000, although cash wasn't part of the lure. "No incentive is provided by us," Morley told me. "We provide information about labour force availability and office space, we maintain a lot of detail on our website, we get some calls. If a company asks us a question, we provide customer service. And we try to make Halifax an attractive business climate for companies." At the same time, as an economic development organization, the GHP is "not interested in Halifax being a safe haven for companies like Enron," says Morley. And because it does not provide any incentives other than information, the GHP does not follow up with the companies that use its services, to ensure the businesses are operating above-board. Morley indicated that would be impossible anyway for an information-based organization like his, which gets one-and-a-half million hits on its website annually. Nor is it the Partnership's job: "There are no incentives at play; we don't owe them money and they don't owe us. "There are an awful lot of good employers in the call centres that are established here," Morley says, careful not to generalize. "Very reputable and straight-up and paying decent to really good money-Xerox, Convergys are examples. Sometimes the sector gets kind of a bad rap. This business"-WWS-"sounds like it is one in a thousand." Carr distinctly felt that a chill was mounting against WWS during her tenure. By the end of last year, WWS employees had stopped calling not just Vermont and Missouri, but also Kansas, which happens to be one of 27 US states (including Missouri and Vermont) with "No Call" legislation. The laws vary state to state, but basically any resident may request that their name be put on a no-call list. Companies selling a product or service within that state must purchase the regularly-updated list or risk violation-and stiff penalties. In Kansas, any telephone solicitor calling a number on the list after the enforcement date is subject to civil penalties of up to $10,000 per violation. The US legislation has more teeth than its Canadian counterpart, the Canadian Marketing Association's voluntary list. Although the CMA does not maintain marketing lists, according to its website, four times a year the names of individuals in both Canada and the US who registered for the Do Not Contact service are distributed to Association members. Members are merely obligated to delete these names from their new-contact marketing lists. Bill Hoyt, of the Kansas Attorney General's office, says that according to their No Call staff, WWS is not prevented from calling businesses in the state, they just seem to choose not to call: "As far as we know, this company is not banned under any sort of agreement. They may just be under the impression, because we have a No Call law, that they can't call." Minnesota adopted similar legislation as of January: businesses calling Minnesota must purchase, for $125 per quarter the first year (the price will drop each subsequent year), a quarterly-updated list of residents who do not want to be called, or face penalties up to $1,000 per solicitation. This is good news for Tina Rennemo, an administrator for the city of Kelliher, who contacted her attorney general to complain about WWS. "My experience with WWS was not a good one," Rennemo says. "I think the company uses fraudulent statements to coax entities into an agreement and I think that they prey on entities. The last call I received from WWS was very aggressive and the rep was very unprofessional." The Upstate New York Better Business Bureau has saddled WWS and Amerisource with an unsatisfactory business performance report-"due to the pattern of complaints alleging misleading sales practices and because they failed to substantiate their business practices upon request." In February 2002, the BBB sent a letter to WWS requesting background information such as a copy of their directory and promotional materials, distribution methods and statistics and the names and addresses of 10 satisfied customers. As of this week, the company has not responded to the request for information. The ABI was an elusive directory even for WWS employees. While still working for WWS, even Carr never saw the book. Carr lives in a comfortable apartment in a low-rise complex just off a busy Dartmouth thoroughfare. She is in her mid-20s and a mother of two, and she wants me to blow the lid off her former employer. She stuck with WWS because it paid well, she says. A salesperson earns $10 per hour plus commission after meeting a weekly quota ("You need five to stay alive!" would start each week), which is a fairly strong unskilled Nova Scotia wage. But she came to hate herself for doing it. Carr is ambitious. Her language is unpolished but she has a professional demeanour, and she is angry, and tireless in her effort to convince me of WWS's misdeeds. I don't really understand why Carr didn't leave WWS on her own. She confirmed all of the attorneys general's findings. She also felt repeatedly belittled by management. "They would come out all the time and say that we were lucky, we could be working in a burger joint for minimum wage," she explains. "Instead, they said, all we had to do was make phone calls for seven hours a day. People with kids and families to feed are much more likely to take this option." One of her biggest gripes is over employee elations: "If we hadn't had a performance report for three weeks, they would issue warnings about quota anyway. But I would ask, 'How can we meet our quota when we haven't seen a report for three weeks?' Their answer was, 'Shut up and deal with it or take the door.' I was told that we could keep our uneducated opinions to ourselves. And that would be fine for someone who felt they were at least getting something out of their job, treated like a human being, but when you're being treated like cattle, it's a little hard to take it up the a*s from upper management on a daily basis." Nor was getting paid a straightforward procedure: "Our orders would dupe"-as in duplicate-"out all the time, screwing over your paycheques on a regular basis. And there was constant problems with hours missed. Every single pay period, 20 different people had their pay cheques screwed up and some people didn't even get a paycheque at all. And it would come to the point that people would have to threaten the company with the Labour Board in order to get paid." Vautour, the WWS employee who was demoted late last year, no longer has access to the ABI directory. She is fairly candid about her ambition: "I truly believe the company should not be operating. I would like to help them shut it down." WWS works hard to appear legitimate. The local offices are in prime locations. On the phone, salespeople are encouraged to pretend that their computer is down if a customer wants any information about their account-though no one working the phone actually has a computer in front of them. Instead they work from 3-inch by 5-inch index cards which contain client information and phone call history taken from other directories-information which is, according to Carr, frequently inaccurate. The office has a dress code for its employees. They are never permitted to fax written information-they can only read it over the phone-and they are not permitted to say "yes" on the phone in response to questions about a current listing or past payment, or "renew," "re-list" or "expire." A page Carr tore from her training sheets reads like something from George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four: "American Solutions Information believes that language frames our world and so the words that we choose to employ to describe our task must reflect this intrinsic belief. We do not have collectors; everyone else in this world does. We offer Collections Coordinators. We are not interested in simply coercing people to pay, but rather we seek to guide clients toward a Mutual Concession." Vautour is on edge because she still works at WWS. "Knowing they were scammed and that now I'm trying to scam them out of more money, that is stressful." She asks me where she can find a lawyer interested in shutting down her employer. Yet she talks to lawyers regularly who are interested in just that. Why doesn't she talk to them, I wonder? Jim Cameron, a psychologist who teaches in the Department of Psychology at Saint Mary's University, says that Vautour probably won't last. "In general, people are uncomfortable acting in ways that are inconsistent with their personal standards, and social psychological research indicates that we often respond by reducing that inconsistency," he explains in an e-mail. "In this case, if the employees don't rationalize lying by adopting an accepting attitude (i.e. by endorsing lying themselves), they are likely to change their behaviour either by disobeying their supervisors, if possible, or by quitting their jobs." Nor is it healthy for anyone involved: "So encouraging employees to lie is not only likely to be sychologically detrimental to them, but it might also be counterproductive for the organization." As one would expect, the research indicates that a company which requires low ethical behaviour will turn over staff at a high rate. Carr, who has been calling Human Resources Development Canada, the Human Rights Commission and the Labour Standards Board-"I don't have 'welcome' written on my forehead, and I don't like being walked on"-sums up it up this way: "A lot people aren't happy with the place. You wouldn't believe the amount of work that doesn't get done there. Sometimes people will just stop and sit in their little groups and chit-chat with their headsets on. Because you can't lie to people all day, you need some truth, some validation. You can't leave your job every day and feel smaller and smaller." She contrasts WWS with another call centre where she used to work. "You know, the only thing that bothered me about that place was the unprofessionalism of upper management-like they'd have water fights while we were trying to work. But they were having fun. They weren't hurting their employees. And the money they raised went to charities, I saw the money go there. With WWS, they're just lining their own pockets," she insists. "You don't know where the truth starts and the lies end with WWS, or if the truth ever starts. It's all somebody's version of it." a Lis van Berkel is a Halifax journalist. Comments about this story are welcome at [email protected]. -- Managing Editor The Coast 5435 Portland Place Halifax, Nova Scotia B3K 6R7 phone:902.422.6278 fax: 902.425.0013

OK for one I am the person who wrote the "Bad Apples" comment... now this site is getting WAY out of hand.. who are you to post a topic about Ryan not wearing his wedding band? and not setting a good example for his kids? and about Jenn Diamond and jenn meisner and MELINDA comeon she is my supervisor and I think she is awesome and to call her a cow and tell her to loose wait.. that is inappropriate.. this site was about bad busines reports and NOW your all gettin personal.. IF you are a customer that is potentially going to buy take a step back and look at this site HELLO majority is talking about the employees and the company (where thay used to work) not the business I have many satisfied customers and they keep coming... again just my 2 cents worth...

Ryan Kidney is a great guy to work for & I want everyone to cut out the BULLSHIT! now. Stop insulting my people, my friends and my-co-workers! Get a freegan life. Yours Truly, Mark aka: "Bing" in Italian ~bing means Crazy P.S I Go crazy if anyone insults my ~Amici's ~Amici means "Friends"

Ryan Kidney you are the biggest loser in the world. What kind of morals are you setting for your children by stealing money fro people in the US. What happend to the wedding ring? you don't where it at work anymore!

The Collection business is the biggest scam off all. They sell err scam people into buying products ie. a yellow page directory or mortgage leads and when they don't get what they want, some people actually never order anything from these people and they bill them anyway. The same people that sell err scam people into buying products are also the collection agency. They harrass and harrass until they get their money.

I have been offered a collection job with Oratel collecting their B2B overdue accounts. Anyone here ever work as a collector for this company? What was your expereince? George - Montreal - Canada

Hello readers. I have worked at these places before, and I have to agree that they are total scams. However, I am not going to rant on how horrible they are. They do suck as companies, the management can be terribly rude, etc. We all know that! When I first stumbled across this site a while ago, I was like, wow, how informative. I learned a lot of things through the site. However, it seems to me lately that everyone is writing the same thing, ie. the companies suck, Pavlos is a scam. We already know that! Can people start actually writing things that are useful, instead of useless hogwash? This site is meant to inform people on how to beat these guys, these deceptive scam artists. I really couldn't care if someone if Melinda is "fat cow" or if Ryan "needs to find a new job." How is that actually going to help one protect himself and maybe save a buck? Get real guys! This site is a valuable resource to many. Please, keep it useful and stop writing comments that are irrelevant. Rather, submit comments that can actually help the reader.

To a few "bad Apples" can ruin the bunch BUT business is Business... If your so proud of this company, why don't you sign your name! To all management at Oratel... hahaha serves you right. Fired recently Trevor, Edith, and Tiffany. It looks good on you! Not such a great company now is it. To Jen Diamond your next, better start looking for a new job, too bad you left the Chinese Restaurant. To Jen Myers getting worried, how far can those looks carry you, have another drink. To all Business Development: Where are those leads Ryan Kidney has been promising you for the past 3 months??? Come on people get on the right track and start looking for a new job, because you know, none of you are safe there. Look how small the room is getting! How many people have been fired since you have worked there. To Ryan Kidney: You better watch out who you tell your going in the mortgage lead business, we wouldn't want Pavlo to find out. To Melinda: Loose some fat you cow!

Dear 'Anonymous' Employees, If your work is so great, why don't you want to sign it? I really don't care if this is 'such a great place to work.' Are you a great place to work with? Again, show us the satisfied customers. I'm sure pirates enjoy their work too, but is that any reason for us to allow them to continue.

ya know it is awful that a few "bad Apples" can ruin the bunch BUT business is Business.. Look I work there and I can tell you it is a GREAT place to work and we all REALLY try to give our customers what tehy need and want BUT all businesses have a down fall ya know Oratel did ALOT of upgrading from going from paper to computer and also Hiring great individuals like myself i will go out of my way to make sure my Customer is happy and so does teh whole company. This is a site to talk about company's and WHY? What do you get from it.. I think Oratel is GREAT.. How are we a scam when you recieve leads??? wether they are all good... hello this isn't a perfect world. NOTHING is ever Perfect are you?? Have you ever had a Dissatisfied Customer? ahh I bet you have.. well that was just my 2 cents worth...

I have worked for and scammed for dozens of invisible and non-existent telemarketing firms across this great city. I am now employed by Oratel, and wish to come to defend the only legitimate call center I have ever found. EVER!!! I can take pride in work knowing that I provide a real service to real customers. Even though at times upper managements decision making process seems a little of the wall, and we occasionally fall short of filling all of our customers needs, it is a work in progress, and work I am proud of.

Dear fellow ex employees,
I too am an ex employee of Oratel, I however don't have the same feelings as the rest of you. Maybe that's because the rest of you are a little bitter because you coudn't hold on to job for more than a few weeks. I have worked with most of you I'm sure, and I know for a fact that none of you had any moral issues about the company while you were working here, everything was just peachy until you either got fired because you couldn't do the job, or you THOUGHT you had a better job to go to. I can't understand why a bunch of uneducated fools would run a company's name through the mud, that gave you an opportunity that most companies would not. Anyone that worked at Oratel, was treated fairly if not more than they deserved. All of you went running to Mr. Ryan Kidney, when you needed a reference letter to get another job after they couldn't do this job, and had NO experience or education to go elsewhere. You didn't hate him then did you? You didn't say boo then. Oh It's so funny, how is unemployment anyway, well I guess I can tell by how much time you all have on your hands. As far as the ripping people off goes, get a life, Just because Oratel has a few unhappy clients, doesn't mean that they are ripping people off, look up any company on this website, they are dragging their name through the mud as well. Anyone can come on here and write whatever they want, so why is everyone making such a big deal about it. Yes Poor Robert Stanton, he lost money because he didn't pay attention to what the person was saying on the other line, now he's upset, I would be to, but you are mad at the wrong people! Oratel is a business, they have many happy clients, many of which were my clients. I also love how you all trashed Melinda as well, that's so funny, because guaranteed if any of you had the opportunity you wouldn't dare say it to her face, She is a bold woman who has worked her way into her position, and certainly not by the way you all think. She has earned her position in this company by hard work and dedication to her job, she's no dumb blonde that's for sure. I'm sure that you will all have your great responses to this letter, but that's fine, you won't hear from me again, I just wasn't about to sit back and let the company that provided so many opportunities for me get their name dragged through the mud, by disgruntled ex employees who have nothing better to do. Good luck with the job hunting by the way, haha.

Dear fellow ex employees,
I too am an ex employee of Oratel, I however don't have the same feelings as the rest of you. Maybe that's because the rest of you are a little bitter because you coudn't hold on to job for more than a few weeks. I have worked with most of you I'm sure, and I know for a fact that none of you had any moral issues about the company while you were working here, everything was just peachy until you either got fired because you couldn't do the job, or you THOUGHT you had a better job to go to. I can't understand why a bunch of uneducated fools would run a company's name through the mud, that gave you an opportunity that most companies would not. Anyone that worked at Oratel, was treated fairly if not more than they deserved. All of you went running to Mr. Ryan Kidney, when you needed a reference letter to get another job after they couldn't do this job, and had NO experience or education to go elsewhere. You didn't hate him then did you? You didn't say boo then. Oh It's so funny, how is unemployment anyway, well I guess I can tell by how much time you all have on your hands. As far as the ripping people off goes, get a life, Just because Oratel has a few unhappy clients, doesn't mean that they are ripping people off, look up any company on this website, they are dragging their name through the mud as well. Anyone can come on here and write whatever they want, so why is everyone making such a big deal about it. Yes Poor Robert Stanton, he lost money because he didn't pay attention to what the person was saying on the other line, now he's upset, I would be to, but you are mad at the wrong people! Oratel is a business, they have many happy clients, many of which were my clients. I also love how you all trashed Melinda as well, that's so funny, because guaranteed if any of you had the opportunity you wouldn't dare say it to her face, She is a bold woman who has worked her way into her position, and certainly not by the way you all think. She has earned her position in this company by hard work and dedication to her job, she's no dumb blonde that's for sure. I'm sure that you will all have your great responses to this letter, but that's fine, you won't hear from me again, I just wasn't about to sit back and let the company that provided so many opportunities for me get their name dragged through the mud, by disgruntled ex employees who have nothing better to do. Good luck with the job hunting by the way, haha.

Dear fellow ex employees,
I too am an ex employee of Oratel, I however don't have the same feelings as the rest of you. Maybe that's because the rest of you are a little bitter because you coudn't hold on to job for more than a few weeks. I have worked with most of you I'm sure, and I know for a fact that none of you had any moral issues about the company while you were working here, everything was just peachy until you either got fired because you couldn't do the job, or you THOUGHT you had a better job to go to. I can't understand why a bunch of uneducated fools would run a company's name through the mud, that gave you an opportunity that most companies would not. Anyone that worked at Oratel, was treated fairly if not more than they deserved. All of you went running to Mr. Ryan Kidney, when you needed a reference letter to get another job after they couldn't do this job, and had NO experience or education to go elsewhere. You didn't hate him then did you? You didn't say boo then. Oh It's so funny, how is unemployment anyway, well I guess I can tell by how much time you all have on your hands. As far as the ripping people off goes, get a life, Just because Oratel has a few unhappy clients, doesn't mean that they are ripping people off, look up any company on this website, they are dragging their name through the mud as well. Anyone can come on here and write whatever they want, so why is everyone making such a big deal about it. Yes Poor Robert Stanton, he lost money because he didn't pay attention to what the person was saying on the other line, now he's upset, I would be to, but you are mad at the wrong people! Oratel is a business, they have many happy clients, many of which were my clients. I also love how you all trashed Melinda as well, that's so funny, because guaranteed if any of you had the opportunity you wouldn't dare say it to her face, She is a bold woman who has worked her way into her position, and certainly not by the way you all think. She has earned her position in this company by hard work and dedication to her job, she's no dumb blonde that's for sure. I'm sure that you will all have your great responses to this letter, but that's fine, you won't hear from me again, I just wasn't about to sit back and let the company that provided so many opportunities for me get their name dragged through the mud, by disgruntled ex employees who have nothing better to do. Good luck with the job hunting by the way, haha.

Dear fellow ex employees,
I too am an ex employee of Oratel, I however don't have the same feelings as the rest of you. Maybe that's because the rest of you are a little bitter because you coudn't hold on to job for more than a few weeks. I have worked with most of you I'm sure, and I know for a fact that none of you had any moral issues about the company while you were working here, everything was just peachy until you either got fired because you couldn't do the job, or you THOUGHT you had a better job to go to. I can't understand why a bunch of uneducated fools would run a company's name through the mud, that gave you an opportunity that most companies would not. Anyone that worked at Oratel, was treated fairly if not more than they deserved. All of you went running to Mr. Ryan Kidney, when you needed a reference letter to get another job after they couldn't do this job, and had NO experience or education to go elsewhere. You didn't hate him then did you? You didn't say boo then. Oh It's so funny, how is unemployment anyway, well I guess I can tell by how much time you all have on your hands. As far as the ripping people off goes, get a life, Just because Oratel has a few unhappy clients, doesn't mean that they are ripping people off, look up any company on this website, they are dragging their name through the mud as well. Anyone can come on here and write whatever they want, so why is everyone making such a big deal about it. Yes Poor Robert Stanton, he lost money because he didn't pay attention to what the person was saying on the other line, now he's upset, I would be to, but you are mad at the wrong people! Oratel is a business, they have many happy clients, many of which were my clients. I also love how you all trashed Melinda as well, that's so funny, because guaranteed if any of you had the opportunity you wouldn't dare say it to her face, She is a bold woman who has worked her way into her position, and certainly not by the way you all think. She has earned her position in this company by hard work and dedication to her job, she's no dumb blonde that's for sure. I'm sure that you will all have your great responses to this letter, but that's fine, you won't hear from me again, I just wasn't about to sit back and let the company that provided so many opportunities for me get their name dragged through the mud, by disgruntled ex employees who have nothing better to do. Good luck with the job hunting by the way, haha.

The mortage 'leads' business must be netting these guys really big bucks compared to the directory scams they were doing at $399.95 a 'listing.'

And just because Pavlos is back in Greece, don't think his paycheck is any less. At $50 per 'lead' this is probably a most lucrative operation.

As to the corporate culture of World Wide Source AKA Oratel, the reports from former employees are most interesting. These guys must know how to make enemies. I'm sure they are not as dumb as their detractors want you to believe, but they ARE criminals. Think about it, do they provide ANYTHING of value.

And they have Mark! This guy, if he's not Shawangunk, LOVES HIS JOB!!! And must feel chills of anticipation as he puts on his polyester suit every morning and sets off to scam more small business people! It's great to love what you do, but are you enriching anybody in the process?

I'd love to hear Mark give an intelligent defense of the way this company does business, but all he can offer is snide comments. Mark, you see, "has a life" as he puts it.

Wake up Mark, is there ANY legitimate business enterprise that you guys do that others would consider a valuable service?

Again, show us the satisfied customers! If Oratel is as great as they say it is then that should not be difficult at all!

I wish I had seen what others wrote before I spent $2250 on 50 supposidly exclusive real time leads. I was promised to receive these leads within 10 business days after 4 weeks with nothing and numerous calls to the person who sold me these leads I got nothing. I finally asked for a refund and then I was told I should speak with the Vice President of the Company Jack Barton. He told me I was too be put on an emergency list and would receive my leads the next business day. Which I did not! I called back and asked to speak to the person who originally sold me these leads and I was told they were in another department with the company. After another couple of weeks I finally spoke to Jack Barton again who told me I would again be put on this emergency list. 5 days later I received 13 exclusive real time leads. These were Garbage! Half of these leads were in other states! Some were disconnects and others had no idea why I was calling. Oh yeah one told me I was the 12th person who had called about this and threatend to take action against me regarding the DNC list. These people are nothing but liars and cheats. Do not be as stupid as me and waste your time and resources on these people!

Man i cant even come to terms with someone what would hand out that much money for phone numbers, you would have been better off looking around the streets for peopel with their own for sale signs up. Anyhow I once worked for this company under another name and I have to point out that some of the people that got riped off deserve it for being so niave, and stupid. 1700$ for leeds. Do complain u got riped of for 50 names u brought it on your self