Jd
Salt Lake City,#2UPDATE EX-employee responds
Sun, February 15, 2004
Sir, I think your posting makes you look bad enough, that I really don't need a follow up. But there are some people out there who are naive and gullable, and may actually want to beleive with all their heart that the opportunity that you are peddling is real. -- A good indication if someone is lying is two things: 1) Justification 2) Contradiction -- You short posting manages to have both of these characteristics. -- Your title is: "Great Bussiness. they didn't lie" Yet you admit and justify the lies in the paper by writing: "And it is not a fraud to lie in the paper. Many people do that." -- So you are admiting that, like someone selling a lemon in the classifieds, that what you peddle in the classifieds is not 100% true? That this job opportunity you peddly is a "lemon job"? -- >>you wrote: "Secondly, I've already seen 5 people get their own office since I have been there(3 weeks).They kicked a*s that is why. The people who never get their own office are the people who like to say and want to stay in the position." You mention these 5 people who just got their offices (which knowing Scentura distributors, and how you yourself, justify lying, is probably a completle, fabricated, lie) but how many people "blow out" how many people make it to their own office? Let me give you some statics from someone with probably more experience than you havein pitching perfume. How long have you been in the Scentura business buddy? 10 years? Right above this posting is someone who has been in the business ten years, Mike Barrick. Mike Barrick posted a lot of this info about the Scentura scam on older chat boards. These files can be found here: http://www.google.com/groups type these three words: Scentura Mike Barrick (August 9, 2003 posting) Here is what most trainees look forward to (999 people in 1000 will leave worse off and never get their own office!), according to Mike Barrick: ""Alternative Marketing" and/or direct sales is awesome... but recruiting people on false pretenses knowing that 99% of them will leave the business in worse shape than they came, is not admirable. The 1% of people that truly make great money w/ Scentura are people that could make great money doing ANYTHING." " 1 out of 1000 coming through the doors will make it to their own office ( 90% quit in the first 2-3 weeks). Of those that open an office, 25% will make it past a year. Of those who last a year, the majority of them will still struggle to pay the bills and keep up the appearance of being successful. These figures are off the top of my head but are pretty accurate." In reagrds to those who made it to an office, here is the real truth on what they look forward too: Mike Barrick again: "I know there are many young owners that have hung in long enough to have Perfume consigned to you by Scentura....and now are running an office and wondering when the money will start coming in. I know that you were under the impression that once you got your own office, the money would start flowing in just like it appears to be for your promoting owner ( who flashes settle up money at new recruits to appear wealthy). Are you working 60+hours a week to barely pay your ads / rent/ secretary (if you can afford one)? Are you getting the "Fear of Loss" treatment from your promoting owner/Regional?? Have you figured this game out yet? You are a customer. Whatever level of your involvement.....you are a customer. If you have been engaged as a "management trainee" then you are a perfume buying customer of the sales office that you interviewed in. If you are an office owner, then congrats......you are now a customer of your promoting owner, Regional Manager, and Larry Hahn/Scentura. You are consigned perfume because there is such astronomical profit margin at each level that it justifies the consignor putting out a little risk to offer the goods to you and allow you to pay AFTER you sell." Some more excerpts of what Mr. Barrick wrote: -- "Most people will struggle to 30-40 bottles a week and the only person making any money is the office owner" -- "Here is the problem.....Not many people would warm up to the idea of selling stuff on the street while virtually going broke ( more on this later), so the recruiting office owners have to make it sound extremely appealing. If they described it factually (like I have above ), they couldn't recruit enough people to stay afloat. They pitch the opportunity to all the recruits just like the sales people pitch the perfume to people on the streets. This is where the ethical boundary gets crossed. You have to put your own good before the well being of anybody else in order to be successful in this setting. Most that walk through the doors for an interview will never make a dime doing the perfume business, but you (as an office owner ) don't make any money telling new recruits the truth. You tell them all that they can do it if they make enough sacrifice, burn bridges with their family and friends who try to talk them out of it ( in effect, alienating them from everyone but other people in the perfume business), Put the blinders on taking all focus away from any "Pre Scentura" values/priorities and they can be successful." -- "Every time I think of that time of my life, I am filled with shame and regret rather than pride. Yes, I was successful in that business but it was at the expense of others. Good people quit working for me (financially they had no choice), and I shunned them. That was what I was taught. Anyone that did Scentura for any period of time know the saying.." The weak fall by the wayside, while the strong survive". The lack of moral turpitude is what you can expect from your experience with Scentura Creations. Nobody cares about you.....It's all about money." --- "Larry's revolving doors are no different only its you that's the kindling wood that keeps his fire burning. You'll quit too at some point......maybe in a month, or a year.......or maybe 10 years or longer. You will realize at some point that there are better ways to make good money without living off of other poeple's struggles." --- Now, if you STILL think that Scentura is a good opportunity, and an ethical business, check out the 18 news and television articles, from across the country against this company: http://www.google.com/groups type: Scentura 17 --- >>you wrote: "If you go out one day and sell 30-40 bottles then Doug thinks to himself this people really knows how to talk to people and thats the kind of people who should run their own bussiness. Not wow he's a great sales person." -- The point is that this person and Doug Zirbel benefit from every bottle of perfume their trainees sell. Scentura is a illegal pyramid scheme (this was confirmed by the Illinois court). Every bottle you sell, Doug gets a cut. So it is too this immoral person's financial benefit to say WHATEVER it takes to retain people. Through FFAAR, the lies about not needing a permit to peddle perfume, the $62,000 salary (there is no salary, it is 100% commision, and as Mike wrote, very, very few make any money doing this, only those at the top of the pyramid--like Doug Zirbel) --- >>the Scentura distributor wrote: "Thirdly, I was reading more about the girl who crashed her car. Sorry that happened but you had their product in your car, therefore you are responsible for it, no matter what. If you walk into a store and oops hit a 3,000 T.V. and it fell on the ground and it was an accident, think that store will just let you walk out. Um NO. Commen sence." --- This is exaclty the type of dark, immoral, type of charaters that Scentura attracts. In reading this repsonse, you can tell this gentleman cares about only one person: himself. Money is king, lord and God. And he is willing to do anything to get it. Just as Mike Barrick wrote above. What price do others have to pay for your success? --- >>>The Scentura distributor wrote: "Fourly, Doug Zirbel is in the better bussiness." -- http://geocities.com/scamdocuments/bbb.htm -- The truth about the better business bureau. -- Please read the newspaper and television articles that tell the real story about how every Scentura distributor runs: http://www.google.com/groups -- type: -- Scentura 17 -- "He has a few streets named after him. He donates money so he is well known and respected. And it really pisses me off when I hear people think badly. No one is perfect. No one is not going to just hand a bussiness over to you. It's not an easy task and for those who stick with it and are willing to deal with the training until Doug thinks they are really then I say right on good for you. But if you quit because you couldn't handle it, that's your bad. I'm not quiting. I will be my own boss I will make millions and you know why, because i am not a quiter. I BELIVE IN MYSELF AND IN THE COMPANY." " -- Dude, you are deluding yourself. I have 350 pages of testimonies against the company. Some of the people were in the business for 1, 2, 5, 10 years. All of them agree what a scam Scentura is. It is set up to make those above you rich. -- Don't beleive me, read the 18 articles against Scentura. -- Don't beleive me, read the testimony of mike Barrick, who was ten years in the business. -- Don't beleive me, read the Illinois court case which established Scentura as a illegal fraud pyramid scam. http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/AppellateCourt/2001/2ndDistrict/September/Html/2000964.htm -- Don't beleive me, read the over 350 pages of testimonies against Scentura. -- The chances of you succeeding are so incredibly small. And if you are one of those .25 of 1000 people that get an office At what cost is that success? What happened to your morals? Does it bother you at all how much you will have to lie to make money? -- This is why distibutors like Doug disgust me so much, they have no scrupples, no morals, they use naive poor kids to sell their product, and if they fail, a well, their are plenty more who will respond to their deceptive ads. Money isn't everything what about dignity and pride in what you do everyday? -- Go ahead and keep justifying your immoral lies. "Everyone does it", etc. etc. You sound to far gone to be rationally spoken too. -- You are being used and manipulated, just like you do to those people that you train everyday. Your value is only in how many bottle of perfume you sell. Nothing more.
Me
Santee,#3UPDATE Employee
Sat, February 14, 2004
When they post 62,000 in the paper, it is true. Once you get past the training. Everyone has to train in life, no one just goes to work and makes 62,000 in a month. Well regular people at least. Yearly 62,000 + . It should take 2 months of training. Then by a year you will be making 62,000 + . So they didn't lie about that. And it is not a fraud to lie in the paper. Many people do that. Look when people are selling cars they say it runs great, then you buy it and it turns out to be a peice of s**t. SO IT'S NOTHING NEW. Secondly, I've already seen 5 people get their own office since I have been there(3 weeks).They kicked a*s that is why. The people who never get their own office are the people who like to say and want to stay in the position. You don't have to sell to get ahead. Being positive and motivated and being able to talk to groups of people is what they look for. If you go out one day and sell 30-40 bottles then Doug thinks to himself this people really knows how to talk to people and thats the kind of people who should run their own bussiness. Not wow he's a great sales person. Thirdly, I was reading more about the girl who crashed her car. Sorry that happened but you had their product in your car, therefore you are responsible for it, no matter what. If you walk into a store and oops hit a 3,000 T.V. and it fell on the ground and it was an accident, think that store will just let you walk out. Um NO. Commen sence. Fourly, Doug Zirbel is in the better bussiness. He has a few streets named after him. He donates money so he is well known and respected. And it really pisses me off when I hear people think badly. No one is perfect. No one is not going to just hand a bussiness over to you. It's not an easy task and for those who stick with it and are willing to deal with the training until Doug thinks they are really then I say right on good for you. But if you quit because you couldn't handle it, that's your bad. I'm not quiting. I will be my own boss I will make millions and you know why, because i am not a quiter. I BELIVE IN MYSELF AND IN THE COMPANY. Oh ya by the way they are a rendition of famous designers. We buy fraganges like white diamonds by the bulk and get it cheaper for buying to much then we re-bottle and out them in our own box and sell it. We can't make the fragrance or re-sell it using the same box/name. It is a rendition.
Jd
Salt Lake City,#4UPDATE Employee
Thu, February 05, 2004
The Zirbel files, Here is all the collected info on Universal Wholesale Distributors from chat messages which agree, Universal Wholesale is a complete fraud (chat messages are in APPENDIX 1, BELOW, showing how Doug Zirbel has ruined people's lives).
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Universal Wholesale Distributors 6790 Top Gun St # 5 San Diego, CA 92121 Original Business Start Date: March 1987 Mr. Douglas Zirbel President 858-554-1156 858-554-0952 Zirbel Enterprises Inc. Doris Cornejo, manager 858-554-1156 6790 Douglas Amysu Zirbel 1698 Aryana Drive Encinitas CA 92024-1293 760-634-3524 San Diego California Promoting owners: Peter Cousins and Teri Lierbergot (1998) [From: [email protected]]
***********
--POINT BY POINT RESPONSE TO THE MISLEADING POSTING---
>>The Scentura apologist wrote:
First of all, you make commission off selling bottles and yes that is the only way you make money during your training. A lot of companies who do Sales do that. That is nothing new.
--
What is new' about Scentura is the fraudulent way that you get people to come and apply, you admit as much, And the reason they post something different then what they really do in the paper is because if you saw an ad for selling perfume you wouldn't of even gone to the interview.
--
So when you post $62,000 in the classifieds what does that mean? You are lying. Doug Zirbel is lying.
--
>>> The Scentura apologist wrote:
That's why Doug trains you first. And having to see bottles is one way. How are you supposed to train someone once you get your own place if you have no idea how to sell something yourself?
--
The entire training is scripted (APPENDIX 2), and it is replete with lies. Scentura distributors promise new trainees to be managers, to be owners of their own business, but the reality it is a sales position. Even after the very, very small minority, get their own office (APPENDIX 3) they will still be dropping perfume. And the chance of failure is incredible. (APPENDIX 3)
--
>>>> The Scentura apologist wrote:
He never said in your interview you were getting an hourly pay!!
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So what does the $62,000 mean?
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>>>> The Scentura apologist wrote:
They don't lie about anything.
--
Please refer to my out dated information on Scentura at:
http://www.google.com/groups
and type:
Scentura
--
I have 18 newspaper articles and 350 pages of testimonies that say this is a complete and total fabrication. Scentura distributors lie about practically everything!
--
>>> The Scentura apologist wrote:
You are just angry because you found out you had to sell something to make money and you were expecting to get paid for nothing. Doug Zirbel has donated a lot to the city of San Diego. There are even a few streets named after him because of it. There is no scam in this business. It's called work and some people like you Leean just wasn't meant for something like this.
--
I remember Josephine Vilasenor, a Chicago Scentura distributor, writing about how she is such an upstanding member of Chicago (See Note 3, below). I am sure there are some streets and buildings named after mob bosses in Chicago, that doesn't mean what they did was ethical, it simply means they paid money for a good reputation, in the hopes that it would counter all of their bad.
--
The person is mad not because they can't work, this person is mad for the same reason that hundreds of people, 350 pages of people's testimonies are mad: Scentura distributors are trained to and regularly lie to trainees using a standard script which was created by Larry Hahn.
***********
--HOW THE SCENTURA SCAM REALLY WORKS--
How the Scentura scam works, for Doug Zirbel of Universal Wholesale Distributors and every distributor nationwide:
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Larry Hahn, president of Scentura, created the concept of an independent contractor, which shields him legally from all of the unethical and illegal practices that Universal Wholesale and all other Scentura distributors participates in. (See Note 1, below) No matter how many lies and illegal tactics that Doug does, Scentura is shielded from legal persecution. Even though Larry came up with the entire fraudulent scheme (See Note 2, below)
--
A former distributor in Canada emailed me 120 pages of handouts he was given while training as a distributor. Since then I have begun typing up all of the inner organization documents. These documents show how the scam works, in detail. From the first interview, to giving advice on how distributors can weasel out of their leases, lie to the classifieds, lie to the business licensing department, lie to their landlords, and lie to their trainees. Doug Zirbel of Universal Wholesale Distributors uses the same exact tactics. It is all scripted, the entire trainee process. Anyone who wants these files please email me at [email protected] I have began to type these Scentura PDF files, and they can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scenturainfo/ Doug uses the same misleading tactics. Large portions of this training manual can be found below. (Appendix 2, Below)
---
****NOTES AND APPENDIX***
(Note 1):
I can document that the concept of the independent contractor license is the corner stone of this scam, dreamed up by Larry Hahn, president of Scentura, with newspaper articles which interview people in Hahn's business.
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Who Wants To Be Rich? Larry Hahn: From Sleeping In A Car To A $5 Million Home.
E. Thomas Jr.. Atlanta Business Chronicle, Oct 5, 1987 v10 n19 p1(5):
--
WMI is the former name of Scentura:
None of their sales managers or salespeople, the people in the field, were on salary," says Gordan Gates, former WMI executive vice president. "They were all independent contractors."
--
The independent contractor concept "was preconceived before the first truck load was ordered in." Fucci says. "It was already planned out before we ever opened up."
--
Full article is located at: http://www.geocities.com/scamdocuments/media_reports.htm
Or, if Scentura closes down this link:
http://www.google.com/groups
and type:
Scentura who wants to be rich
----
(Note 2):
Larry Hahn came up with the entire fraudulent scheme, the entire fraudulent training practice:
"Twenty-three years ago in Atlanta, Georgia, Scentura Creations, Inc. established a unique concept that provided an opportunity for people to be in business for themselves. By removing many of the barriers on the road to financial independence (lack of capital, education, or experience) Scentura Creations discovered a way the average person can realize the American dream of being his or her own boss."
--
From an Archive of the Scentura website: http://web.archive.org/web/19981111190335/http://www.scenturacreations.com/
---
(Note 3) http://www.seniors-site.com/fraud/1333.html
*****
INDEX:
--
*APPENDIX 1: Chat messages about Universal Wholesale Distributors
*APPENDIX 2: Training guides for new distributors, showing how the training is scripted, and many of the lies that distributors use.
*APPENDIX 3: Why Scentura is a bad career move.
--
(APPENDIX 1):
Chat messages about Universal Wholesale Distributors:
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** I wrecked the car and went to the hospital. The manager came to pick up the perfume, threatened my mother for money, and then left without asking how I was doing. I was fired. ***
http://dcregistry.com//forums/employment/messages/6354.html
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I started training 2 weeks after you did. We did a satellite in Missouri together. I was probably made out to be a WPS [weak Piece of Sh*t] by R, R & D [Rob Zirbel, Ricki Zirbel & Denny]. But I'll leave what REALLY happened for others that may be interested. Glad to hear all is going well for you.
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I was fired by Designers International a Scentura distributor after I was involved in an automobile accident due to being flat broke, being awake since 7 am the morning before and having to drive 15 hours just to try to get home because I had no money to stay anywhere else. Since I was the manager for the satellite I was responsible for keeping the unsold bottles of perfume.
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When I wrecked the perfume was in the trunk of my car. Several bottles were broken. It was only when I didn't show up for work on that Monday that the owners found out I was in a hospital just across the state line.
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One of them came and got the perfume, made my mother pay them $20 for each damaged bottle to keep them from suing me for theft of property. Meanwhile I'm laying up in ICU with multiple broke bones and not once did they ask how I was doing. Did they ask how the other girl that was with me was? NO! Plain and simple, I was fired because I was in the hospital and didn't report for work, I couldn't very easily turn in the perfume in from the hospital now could I? The doctors had me so drugged up, I couldn't tell anyone to call the special 1-800 # they gave me to call and let them know what had happened.
Of course since it wasn't turned in on Monday like in the fake contract I signed they considered it to be stolen. I know that just makes a whole lot of sense, NOT! That was THEIR words not mine.
Tara
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**** The only person making any money is the office owner****
seniors-site.com/fraud/1008.html
Posted by Mike Barrick on April 21, 2001 at 16:40:32:
In Reply to: Re: I was in the Business for 10 Years and know ALL the GOOD, BAD and the UGLY!! posted by Kim on April 21, 2001 at 01:34:11:
I didn't see your post to me prior to posting my earlier response. I see you worked in the business although it doesn't sound like you were an owner or at least not yourself a regional manager.
The time when people made money hand over fist was well before perfume came along and I think on that point we can agree. At one point, the people on the street actually made real good money and that's the key. Whether they stayed or left, got into an office or not, they still had a job at face value which paid pretty good.
People could go sell flatware and gla*sware, pots n pans out of the back of their nasty old van and make $200-$300 a day if they were decent at all. Perfume came along and even if one sold 100 bottles in a week....( and I have done 100 club almost 100X ), they would likely make about $500-$600 for the week.
Most people will struggle to 30-40 bottles a week and the only person making any money is the office owner......and that's if the office owner is making money because Larry has them paying somewhere around $10 per bottle. This was a much better opportunity when the people on the street could make good money and office owners could make $10-$15 per piece that their office did. Doing 300 a week was "real good" money then but now days it MIGHT provide a living.
I too have a pretty good idea of how many people became literal millionaires from WMI ( it doesn't compare to the internet btw ), and I also have a pretty good idea of how many people have become millionaires from Perfume/Scentura....and aside from Doug Zirbel, I believe just about all the perfume millionaires were millionaires before perfume came along.
You clearly think very highly of yourself and your "sarcastic" and elitist posts are very offensive. I can only a*sume that is your intention?
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http://seniors-site.com/fraud/1143.html
From: [email protected] Svetlana Hodges
I attended an employment seminar yesterday, during which we were told the following by Doug Zirbel (the owner):
1. That he's the 5th richest man in America.
[I searched the Forbes list, they must have overlooked him.]
2. His wife (Amy Sue) is a company executive.
[Actually, his MIDDLE NAME is Amysu].
3. The perfume's we would sell are NOT renditions, but actually Chanel, Oscar de la Renta and Givenchy products (without the label).
[Obvious B.S.]
4. That "Anyone" could easily "NET" $60,000 per in their first year [A quick calculation reveals this would require the sale of 50 bottles per day, 5 days a week at the 7.00 commission].
5. That this type of sale is exempt from state sales tax. [It's NOT, and the seller would be breaking the law].
Clearly, this company attracts potential salespeople by telling lie after lie. They make money mostly through the sale of perfume to compassionate relatives and friends who don't want to see the new-hire fail. No benefits, no company support, no advertising - we even have to bring our own office supplies.
If anyone is interested, I've posted Mr. Zirbel's home address and telephone number:
Douglas Amysu Zirbel (So much for the wife!)
--
Be careful, this just sounds like one more multi-level parasitic scam operation.
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http://seniors-site.com/fraud/1560.html [email protected]
--
Ok Listen up people, I live and work in San Diego. When I was 17 I heard about the Zirbels.
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I got a "job" with them (this consisted of no more than soliciting strangers in the streets and just about anyone else that would listen to your pitch).
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Their "training course" was nothing but under-handed sales tactics along with "don't take no for an answer" mentality. These people ARE scam artists.
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See for yourself, at any given time their work force consists of nothing more than a few unknowing teens, and numerous uneducated working-class nobodies, desperate to make a quick buck.
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FACTS: You get NO company support.
You get NO benefits of any kind.
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You are charged up front by your pals Doug and Amy for the fake perfume you end up having to pawn onto sympathetic friends and family.
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You don't even get compensated for the gas you use when they send you on selling sprees outside of San Diego.
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They are NOT members of the Better Business Bureau.
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They prey on people in bad financial situations, and con them into thinking they'll get their own office someday and be rich and successful. All by just selling a few bottles of FAKE cologne and perfume (I know, I still have some)
So to all you would-be perfume entrepreneurs, I can only offer this advice: Know what you are getting into, before you're in too deep. Many people have different opinions about this company. So do some research and realize that they are more crooked that a barrel of snakes.
---
From
Concerned
Santee,#5Consumer Comment
Wed, February 04, 2004
First of all, You make commision off selling bottles and yes that is the only way you make money during your training. Alot of companys who do Sales do that.That is nothing new. Secondly, Leslie most likly didn't want to tell you what her health plan is because that may be none of your concern. Thirdly,Amy Sue is in the office three times a week. If you stick out the training you will get what you were promised. But how is someone supposed to give you a bussiness to run if you have no expericance. That's why Doug trains you first. And having to see bottles is one way. How are you supposed to train someone once you get your own place if you have no idea how to sell something yourself? He never said in your interview you were getting an hourly pay!!And the reason they post something different then what they really do in the paper is because if you saw an ad for selling perfume you wouldn't of even gone to the interview. They don't lie about anything. You are just angry because you found out you had to sell something to make money and you were expecting to get paid for nothing. Doug Zirbel has donated alot to the city of San Diego. There are even a few streets named after him because of it. There is no scam in this bussiness. It's called work and some people like you Leean just wasn't meant for something like this.