Complaint Review: Master Joe Sayah Dandenong Traditional Wing Chung Kung Fu Mornington Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu - Dandenong North Australia, Nationwide

hello everyone

this is a very interesting topic

a number of things

to the student who had courage in coming from overseas to train at sifu joes class was amazing you took such steps to come. it is always nice to go overseas to a new country; and aim to train with a well recognised sifu.

 i however have some small comments to the point to add

 1. i have trained and known sifu joe for many years sifu joe has helped me through personal crisis in my life at tines, now i am on th other end of it all and have oome out stronger not once but many times. he has trained me both as a student and he has been a mentor to me. i have exchanged a lot of time and investment with sifu joe ad i do not regret any of it and should i have more time i would invest more time with such a person.

 he is a. a good trainer b/ teahes the discipline of martial arts c. selects private students carefully- and teaches them well. he never cancelled a class with me unless i did. everything was documented on paper work and was very clear from day one   my goals were very clear

i had also done my research thoroughly about sifu joe and attended many schools and trained privately with other trainers. i will only choose to learn the discipline of wing chun from sifu joes academy if i were to ever train.

i think from a personal pont if you are to come from overseas to learn a discipline you neeed to have maturity and understand the positives and negativies of training; that you may withstand a injury that you may not be happy with the outcome of your training. 

if you dont have maturity and self refletion it is hard to do so,

eg. many of us study hard and go to university; and realise this is not for me- it would be great if we ould blame the school and ask them to pay us as they should have looked after us. 

so i think some maturity would be great in view that you had done the researh and travelled to train with a master of kung fu,

everyone has opinons and to document so much would mean you have a lot of time on your hands.

to clarify the grading of tears- 

a grade 3 or 4 mcl tear is treated by most surgeons non operatively. only after a minimal period of six weeks times if there is instability in the knee do you need consideration for operative surgery- either via inital knee arthroscopy or via a small incision and manipulation of either use of existing tendons or grafts. you can do a literature search on affiliated websites if you need to learn more.

a total knee replacement is yet to be trialled in a setting such as yours where you could completely reduce the knee as you documented after the injury. if you had disclocated your knee reduction with a knee brace is optimal management.

thus i find it strange operative surgery such as a total knee replacement was required in your instance.

in summary 

sifu joe sayah is a great trainer and a mentor to me.

i think it is imperative we all learn lessons in life;

i can take from this that you or others need to take personal reflection and maturity in decision making and perhaps find something better to do in your time than slandering respected members of the community on a online website.

in australia particularly there are legal implications for doing so.

I trained under Sifu Joe for 2+ years at the time of the above incident. I trained with Josh and both brothers – Chris and Dan. During my training I experienced several small injuries none worth mentioning. In hindsight now, if I did receive an injury to this extent I would not have lowered myself to personal attacks and slander in such a public forum. To be honest, upon signing up with Sifu’s school, I completely understood the risks involved and took out health insurance as a precaution, as I knew I was at greater risk of injury. Josh should have done the same considering he was entering Australia

without the benefit of our health system. I’m also sure he would have signed the same disclosure that I did. Just by reading and signing this form is evident you are aware of the risks and know up front that any expenses of injury or the like will be borne by yourself, and not the kwoon. This is standard disclosure whether it be kung fu, soccer, or table tennis….I also recall when Dave came to class after the broken ribs incident – he did not b***h and moan like a baby. He was aware of the risks and took it on the chin (or rib as it may be). I suppose that’s the difference between a committed practitioner and one either there for social or profiting purposes. I notice on Josh’s (now self proclaimed Sifu Josh’s) website there is reference to Sifu Joe Sayah training him. He has not mentioned any of this bullsh* – why – maybe because he knows his mistakes in starting this s**t, or he’s now himself trying to cash in on Sifu’s name and lineage. His last post dated 25 July 2009 points more to the former. I do not see any other Sifu’s mentioned after leaving Australia, so how did he become a Sifu himself???

As for the brothers, Chris and Dan, I am surprised you both involved yourselves this deeply, and still to this day. You both trained with me and experienced some practitioners being harder than others. This is part and parcel of the sport. Personally, I preferred sparring with Mark or Dave, even though they made contact more often than not. In order for me to better myself in the sport, I wanted to be pushed to my limits, and learn from my mistakes, i.e. bad footwork, guard too low, etc… Maybe by ganging up like children has caused this to escalate, have you thought of that?

After reading the report and its rebuttals, I find it amusing the length people will go to, especially from people with grudges.

I understand training has it hazards, perhaps you have misjudged what i have written or i havent been as clear as i should have, my gramma is shocking, Yes you seem to have your fair share of injures, so has alot of people in a hobby or workplace, being a work place for joe, his conduct and treatment ect should be in order, its not run properly the wavers he uses are not admissable in court in australia or a binding contract. So they dont mean s***, his direct debit payments for his classes are not on par,legal or binding to the student, i wonder if he even pays tax(not sure on the tax im assuming)

You do not pop a knee in with out some sort of medical training which he has not got,you will find if treated by a DOCTER a x ray or mri is done before any treatment is given. If u admisiter first aid u are directly responable for any damage or harm inflicted this by law in Australia.

i understand perhaps your time with sifu joe was pleasent and u learned skills of him, however, i dont know, i wasnt there.

I can personally vouch for alot of this situation first hand, im sure you didnt pay scam fu joe 15- 20 thousand dollars to train with him full time to open a school?

See the thing is, and this happens alot in life with people in general, people f**k others over and try to get away with it, nothing ive said here i wouldnt say directly!

I have never discredited his skills in wing chun kung fu, but a liar and a thief is still that, and if most people know this the trust is harder to earn.

I cant comment much further as i am seeking legal advice in regards to a refund on all of my costs and training fees.

Also a grudge you say? i dont loose sleep over it mate

but ill say my bit and if joe dosent like what is said i really dont care, im not running a scam shack above a fish market!

Perhaps Joe in his classes is still giving his religous speaches and trying to convert students, hmm a liar, thief and cheater sounds like the right kind of person for the job!

If there is a god im sure he created joe in his image, his a*****e that is!

Peace

Dear Righteous In Melbourne,
     You have been engaged in expressing your dissatisfaction with your relationship, contractual and "teaching-wise", with Sifu Joe Sayah without personal criticism from myself. After all, it's your right to have your say on the matter.

     It is also my right to have my say on the matter, by relating my own personal experiences. The public can judge whichever way they want, depending upon how they view how the various observations are expressed.

     To tell me that my experiences and observations are "...not worth mentioning..." on the series of posts related to this consumer report is perhaps "cheeky" at best, and impolitely crass at the worst. Especially when I was addressing a very belated response to someone else's comments, and not anything that you had posted.

      Perhaps you have been fortunate enough to not have sustained any injuries at all in your martial arts career. Great, you are one of the few. Perhaps you have been fortunate enough to not have accidentally hurt a training partner during your career. Better yet- your skill perhaps surpasses mine. I like to think that every time I accidentally hurt someone, I had apologized for the error and tried that much harder afterward to be more careful, and study more so as to avoid such problems.

      Not strangely, I have been injured by numerous individuals, and to varying degrees. Some of those causing the injury were experienced, others not. Some of my injuries are permanent (neck, shoulder, hand), while others are incidental (stick hits to knuckles in hands, black eyes, that kind of thing.). In a couple of instances, I was out from training for weeks and/or months.

     In one case, I was out for 2 years from contact martial arts while I went through surgery, bone grafts, and rehab related to a broken finger. The break happened at a top Shotokan school in Glendale, California, when I wrongly tried to block a kick with the wrong part of my hand. The fellow student, who was my senior, performed a roundhouse kick quite strongly. It's possible that he could have pulled the kick a bit, but it did not happen. Que sera.

   The sensei of the school, a well known West Coast sensei, did not make a fuss with either of us. He set my finger perfectly (confirmed later by my physician by xray) and then recommended that I go to the doctor, given the amount of swelling that had started happening. I went, got the xrays and the prognosis that showed that I would need surgery on 2 bones in my fingers, due to weaknesses in the bone as well due to the break itself. That ended my shotokan career right then and there, after having studied shorin ryu karate for about 4 years prior to that.

    Unlike Josh, who somehow as a recent emigre to Australia could not access the social health system there, I had health insurance coverage through my employer that only cost me minimal co-pay fees for the drugs and rehab sessions. As such, I did not face the economic threat that Josh apparently faced. This makes our situations a tad different in some aspects.

   But I would take personal umbrage with anyone who would say that this sensei was not a first-class instructor, simply because he did not drive me to the hospital himself and open up his check book for a serious injury that occurred in his school, and in his presence. In martial arts, these things happen. That's what signed waivers are for, and what they mean. And it's how you deal with these kind of injuries afterward that matters.

   During the post-surgical rehab period, though, I felt out of place by not doing some kind of martial arts training. I ended up doing yang family tai chi, given that it strengthened the legs, helped with hip mobility (that's where the took the bone graph material from), and "kept me in the game" while waiting to be able to go back to external martial arts.

   I learned a lot from what ended up being about 9 years of study with a great teacher, Dr. Marshall h*o'o. Without the injury from the Shotokan school, I would have never tried an internal Chinese martial art. I even met my future wife while we both trained with Dr. h*o'o.

   What is more, the internal aspects and the "push hands" experience I had gained with Dr. h*o'o helped me with chi sao later on under Sifu Joe. I think I would have had a tougher time of it in chi sao without the tai chi experience, in fact.

   I ended up learning more, I think, by dealing with the injury the way I eventually did than by "going after" the Shotokan sensei because of an incidental misfortune. Each step from the point of that injury onward has led to what I am today, which hopefully is representative of a what it is to be an "old-school" student. I like to think I have the respect of my previous instructors, and my current instructor, by maintaining my this particular outlook. For me, to have that respect is what is truly important.

   I relay this long story simply to give an alternative viewpoint on a situation involving injuries sustained by doing martial arts, an admittedly hazardous hobby. I think that everyone in martial arts, or in boxing, or any other contact sport, need to think carefully and be mindful about the potentials of injury while doing amateur or even professional contact activities. If the potential for being maimed or injured, from a training injury or even a "challenge match", is too daunting, then perhaps they should consider some more pedestrian activities for their spare time or for their careers.

Respectfully,

Anthony Canales

Anthony c, while i enjoy reading about your wing chun experence and time spent with sifu joe, its not really worth mentioning on this post, at the end of the day he injured a student permantly and tried to weasle out of it.

Only someone or some kind of sub human waste would stoop to that level, especally someone with a career in the industry, also to mention is if he is the best instructer in the world dosent mean s**t if he can be trusted.

while yes a good point is to say what the heck and move on but u cant seriously say in that circumstance u could do so either, unless u have a tree that grows money to come up with the 10-15 thousand to pay for your surgery>?

Joe sayah is a weasle and i wouldnt recomend him to train a dog!

go to a real teacher not some lego hero!

Dear Adrian K,
   I am not sure that I remember you, or that you trained at either the Granada Hills School or at the Encino School, but then I am pretty horrible with names. Especially after so many years and what not. In any case, thank you for your kind words about how I treated you.

   In any case, one always hears stories of both satisfied and dis-satisfied students in martial arts.

   Despite a history in Asian martial arts regarding the traditional relationship, the filial loyalty issue, and so-on, a 34 year "career" in studying different martial arts under various instructors has taught me that they are not Master Po's. They are human, with all the good and bad that comes with that distinction. Student's need to remember that. That's what I expected of Sifu Joe and many others, and I think that's what I had got. At least the fair deal part from Sifu Joe.

   But it's the old school tradition that dis-satisfaction is dealt with by leaving quietly, thereby gaining face. In the old school, trash-talk can be perceived as actually a loss of face. Those are not my rules, that's just the way things are. There are even koan and tales of the life of the Buddha on not speaking ill, merely maintaining one's balance and moving onward.

  In many respects, a bad instructor is not worth the time, nor effort, nor energy to spend criticizing. You just "walk on" looking for somebody else worth learning from.

  In other words, it "don't mean nuthin' ".

   My post was simply put up at that time because such an open means of criticism of Sifu Joe needed commentary from all sorts of students of Sifu Joe's. While others appear dis-satisfied with what and how they learned, I merely wanted to relate that I was most satisfied. And also because of my more positive experience, I felt it to be the responsible and loyal thing to do to offer up my own, perhaps different, experience.

   I learned the footwork I wanted to learn from Sifu Joe, and that footwork is holding me in good stead with boxing and JKD students who are easily 20-30 years younger than myself.

   I learned great contact and contact sensitivity skills from Sifu Joe (and Sifu Alon and Sifu Joel) that are holding me in good stead with JKD and silat students likewise much younger than myself.

  This is not to say that I am not studying other things right now, instead of traditional wing chun. A good tight hook from American boxing (or muy thai, for that matter) is the bane of many a student, even boxing students. Wing chun's answer to the tight, "professional" hook is in, my personal opinion, risky when one does not control the range properly under all circumstances. Given that simple discovery for myself, I found it necessary to look to boxing to see what they have to offer regarding the tight hook.

   Oddly enough, some of their "counters" to the hook have principles that are oddly "traditional wing chun-like", once one gets to do lots of repetitions (and when one eats a certain amount of "real hooks" as part of the learning process.). There are deflections, and abbreviated shoulder rolls with a tucked elbow that work under practical circumstances, yet they remind me either of bong sao or of the use of the shoulder common in yang tai chi.

   Wider hooks are obviously more vulnerable to gan sao or lap sao, depending upon the "line" or "gate" that they are coming in on. That's still clear, so appreciation of traditional wing chun theory still is merited.

   But still, if given the opportunity to go to Melbourne, I would distinctly go to Sifu Joe's school and see if I could put some time in. There are topics that I did not have a chance to get to while he was here, and he has been friendly enough to offer his time should I find himself in his neighborhood. That's good enough for me, such as it is.

Respectfully,

Anthony C

Here's the video of his fight. His punches don't look to strong, and am surprised this is how he fights in real combat. K1 is harder than most people imagine, but Master Joe looks so good when practicing with the wood dummy, as well as sparring with his students; that I was saddened by his display in the ring.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xbghl2_k1-1995-nobuaki-kakuda-vs-bruce-dra_sport

Hey all, former student of Joe's from California. Thought I'd chime in on a few things.

To "Truthhurts": You're pretty much right on all counts, except one. Joe did in fact compete in K-1 Kickboxing, despite what the rules you posted were. I found a short clip of it back in the first few months of my time as his student. He was knocked out by a pure boxer, and from the 30 second clip of him getting counter-punched, he looked pretty bad.

Many of his close students, including me, confronted Joe on this point to understand what happened in that fight. He claimed he lost because he "Didn't know how to throw a hook" or some such non-sense. Of course, back then we all believed his words, as he was someone we all looked up to.

To Josh Phillips: I don't know if you were the same Josh that went to the Encino and Northridge school's back in the days I was there? We might've met. Apologies for your horrible experience with Joe Sayah. Your situation is not the first serious lack of character Joe has shown. Several of the full-time/part-time students were very disgruntled after participating in a program that cost between $7000 to $15000 a year, and didn't offer much more than the normal classes.

The student you mentioned that Joe paid for to have dental surgery and hernia surgery, if I remember correctly that was Sifu Joel Douthit. I remember him going in for Hernia surgery, but never any mention was made that Joe paid for it. Then again, Joel was broke, had no job, and was living with Sifu Alon Petersen. Eventually, Joel was left the Northridge school, but it was quickly closed because Joe left him without the skills needed to run a business. Joel's a very nice person, but his business sense and people skills were insufficient to run a school. Joe leaving him to run the school was a horrible move on his part. The last I heard of him, he moved back to the Mid-West. Another student f'd over by Joe Sayah.


To Wing Chun Student:

Tony, I know you're trying to stand up for Joe, as he was a good friend to you. But you need to look back at the situations we all found ourselves in, more critically. You're a good guy and I've always thought that of you, influencing me a lot since beginning WC. However, he got kicked out of the association because Grandmaster William Cheung did not approve of his business methods in handling the Full-time/Part-Time instructor program. Students brought it to GM's attention, and he kicked Joe out over the whole thing.

The price of the Instructors program, as well as the broken promises and such were all ridiculous breaches of trust. There isn't a full-time program in the entire world that charges that much money, for so little in return. Furthermore, Josh Phillips' claim that Joe missed out on several of the lessons is in fact very likely. Many of my fellow students of the Full/Part time programs, myself included were promised lessons that never happened. Will in particular had a lesson debt from Joe over a dozen times if I remember correctly.

To the new students defending Joe Sayah:

Good luck. Thats all I've got to say. Good luck. Hopefully you'll realize the truth someday. Sifu Joe Sayah is a decent man, a decent father and husband. But he's very immature, and he cares more about money than he does of his students.

To the person who said Sifu Joe could kill a man in 15 seconds, I never laughed so hard in my life. Anyone in the martial arts can tell you how resilient the human body can be. I doubt Joe would be able to kill anyone in 15 minutes, let alone 15 seconds. Don't believe me? Go check out his K-1 Kickboxing record. He got knocked the F*** out.

To Joe Sayah:

I'd hope you don't try and respond any more to the posts made here. Your juvenile reply to Josh Phillips did not help your case at all. I'd hope one day you learn that people are more important than cash. The skills I learned from you served as a decent foundation, but were not nearly as high level or incredible as was claimed. Perhaps it was my immaturity and inexperience to blame for that. Nonetheless, I've moved on to acquire skills in defense and offense that you only still dream of.

Cheers, mate.

Joe Sayah The Fraud!

Well, well, well. The B.S is finally catching up with this self proclaimed Legend. Let me give you a run down on myself. I stated training in Traditional Wing Chun (TWC) in 1979 at Russell St Melbourne under Grand Master William Cheung (GMC) before the school moved to Corrs lane in 83, from 1984-88 I trained under his brother David Cheung and GMC where they were both taking classes. I have also trained under Sifu Chris Wilson in 88, Sifu Dana Wong and Sifu Bruce Corles at the Dandenong Academy 89-93 and then back to Melbourne at Flinders St, and Corrs Lane again. All of my training was done part time as my job was working interstate. I still train on occasions and are in touch with many of the old crew.  I will not reveal my real name as Joe Sayah has a history of threatening people. I am not afraid of him as I know he is too much of a coward to back up his threats but I am aware he has some brain washed students who have been taken by his BS and have less intelligence than him if that is possible?

Let me give you a little information what I know about Joe. It is well known in the T.W.C clan that many regard Joe Sayah as a joke. Higher-ranking TWC instructors describe his personality as juvenile and living in a dream world. There have been numerous complaints made about this guy over the years everywhere people have had the misfortune to deal with him.

THE FAKE LINEAGE..

Joe Sayah started training in TWC around the end of the 80s early 90s under Sifu Dana Wong and the final days of Master David Cheung in the Melbourne Academy. He came in on school holiday with one of his friends on casual sessions for the first few years. GMC was NOT his true Sifu!!!! GMC had stopped teaching classes at this time choosing to manage his new Wing Chun headquarters in Dandenong, leaving his head instructors to run classes in both Dandenong and city centers while GMC only attended seminars.  

In the world of TWC, there are 2 categories.  (1) instructors who learnt TWC under GM when he was teaching classes 1973-88 and (2) those instructors who trained under other instructors and had to settle with GMC seminars 4-6 times a year. Joe Sayah falls under category No 2. It is common for many TWC instructors to skip and disrespect Sifu Dana Wong or their Sifus to claim the higher prestige with the GMC tag.

THE SUBSTANDARD CREDENTIALS.

Joe Sayah Graded privately for Instructor level 10 around 1992 at the Dandenong Academy jumping from level 6 to 10 instructor level in one grading. This was because the head instructor at the time (Sifu Bruce Corles) left to open up a school in the town of Frankston. Many of the Dandenong students including myself left as few people cared for the arrogant and immature attitude of Joe, who constantly spouted heroic stories about his many fights, while slandering anyone who posed a treat. His skills and personality were considerably lacking from that of those who taught before him and many disillusioned students questioned as to how a level 6 student from Sifu Dana Wongs school, who appeared out of nowhere, could jump 4 levels to instructor.

FAILED SCHOOLS..

Within 6mths the Dandenong headquarters was bankrupt and closed for various reasons. Joe took what students remained and started to teach out of a school hall until he shut doors leaving many members disgruntled and out of pocket from the whole ordeal.

 In the 90s, Joe found himself hanging around the Melbourne Academy teaching casual classes as Sifu Dana Wong was the head instructor. He tried to open schools at Elwood and other places with no success.

 THE FAKE FIGHTER

During 80s and 90s GMC arranged a number of full contact Australian Kung Fu championships (Sanshou) but the Joe the Legend wound not compete in any of them saying they were not full contact enough for him then spouted numerous false claims that he was going to fight the Gracie Brothers in UFC and compete in the K1 kickboxing. These claims were made to sidetrack anyone questioning his courage. Many senior students and instructors dismissed this as typical Joe Sayah dreamer B.S as he had no experience what so ever, many just regarded him a coward hiding behind his bizarre claims. Some junior students however were fascinated and thought it pretty cool a Wing Chun instructor was going out to challenge the world; Joe thrived on the attention and yet was so ignorantly blind in seeing so many people laughing at him.

JOE THE SLIME-BALL CREEP.

I totally lost all respect for Joe the day he was mouthing off as usual in front of junior students about one of the senior instructors who had just won a kickboxing match. Joe accused him of being a traitor to the art of Wing Chun for teaching kickboxing techniques in his classes. Joe even had the arrogants to tell GMC in front of people that he was going to go down to the instructors school and strip him of his Gold sash. On that  same day the accused instructor walked into the Melbourne academy completely unaware of what had taken place, Joe Sayah ran up to him groveling, he bowed, smiled, shook his hand and welcomed him as if nothing had happened. This was a man, NO SLIME-BALL CREEP that would stab a senior instructor in the back to his Master and then suck up as if it never happened. What a tough guy. When the instructor was told of what had happened, he just shrugged Joe off as irrelevant. I asked GMC if there was any truth in what Joe was saying, his reply was Joe thinks he is someone big and is jealous of anyone with better skills than he

 JOE THE LOVE SICK PUPPY

Joe absolutely idolized and worshiped GMC, hanging off every word and story he told. It was hilarious to watch him to try and act like GMC taking on his mannerisms. He even went to the extreme of having GMC and his logo tattooed on his shoulder parading it around like some juvenile gang member with a new patch. GMC had little respect for such small mindedness.

JOE THE MOVIE STAR..

It was not long after the Joe hit the big time. He held an ashtray in a 2 second part in the Jackie Chan movie Mr. Nice Guy. He was now Joe the movie superstar!! So it was off the Hollywood to become the next Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan.

RESUME OF KINGS

Upon arriving in America Joes new resume now read; Martial arts legend from Australia, K1 champion and cage fighter and accomplished actor, Go Joe! Oh and did I forget, he was also the number one fighter in the TWC. All false and fabricated lies, but hey, its across the other side of the world and whos going to check right?

I am sure there are many stories in America about Joe from people who saw past this B.S. I am also aware there are students who believe what they hear and were sucked in by this self proclaimed legend.

UNHAPPY AMERICANS

There were a number of letters circulating around head office and TWC instructors from disgruntled students in America complaining about Joes misconduct ranging from incompetent teaching skills to fake marriage proposals, Go figure?

THE FAKE IS EXPOSED.

Joe finally landed the roll of villain in the movie Once upon a time in China part 6 by spouting of his new B.S resume. It was not long before everyone on the set realized they had a hopeless case on their hands. It was common knowledge on the film set that Jet Li lost it with Joe many times saying he couldnt act. Sammo Hung was also furious with his choreography skills and wanted to kick his a*s, and was heard saying this clown cant even kick. The movie was chopped and changed and in the end it was one of Jet Lis biggest flops. Hollywood is well known for its B.S, and Joe should have been, No was his destiny to be a huge success. Bombed out there!

THE LEGEND RETURNS... RESUME OF GODS..

After a few years in America Joe arrives back in Australia as the all accomplished American Hero. His resume now reads; Martial arts legend from America, K1 champion, cage fighter champion, accomplished actor, number one fighter in the TWC, trainer of the Special Forces, F.B.I, C.I.A, Local Police enforcement, bodyguard to a President. He now has Wing Chun schools in major cities around the world and now..Dandenong. WOW!!!! This guy is now a Super Super Mega Legend. You go Boy.

NEVER ENDING MADNESS

It is one thing to deceive people for money with fraudulent claims, but it is complete madness and psychologically disturbing for someone to actually believe this crap, and sadly Joe does.

In the martial arts there has always been a code of ethics. In the words of GMC. You must help those less fortunate, respect family, your teachers, seniors and juniors, but most of all yourself Joe must have missed those classes?

 When choosing a location for his new school in the vastness of Australia he chooses to open a 100 meters down the same street from another TWC school, Lifestyle Kung Fu, run by Joes senior Sifu Bruce Corles. Many people regard Joes actions as dishonorable. But wait there is more.. Joes 2^nd school that recently opened in Mornington is less than 50 meters away from another Lifestyle Kung Fu centre. What are you trying to say Joe? You have never been too smart but this is business suicide!!! I have trained with both you and Sifu Bruce and even his instructors have far superior teaching skills and Wing Chun skills to yours, The Lifestyle Kung Fu center in Dandenong is 5 times the size of your crappy joint, more professionally run and fitted out. The only thing you have to offer is pure BS. And that is now its all falling apart.

FACTS

To qualify in the K1 you need to be a nationally recognized Kickboxing champion not a nobody like yourself. Anyone can check the K1 website for the listings of all competitors dating back to its beginning. And guess what! Joe is not there. As for Cage fighting, crap movie clips dont count. If Joe has successfully competed in the cage or in any competition, he would have pictures up all over the walls of his club as his mentality is to brag, instead he ducks and dives when ever asked the question.

  Joe is not and has never been regarded by anyone as the No1 fighter in the TWC. He has never even fought before. Dreams and pushing around juniors dont count.

 Trainer of the FBI, CIA, bodyguard to the President blaa.. blaa.. blaa? Oh Please. To be involved in diplomatic security you need a minimum of 10 years in the special forces.

 Joe, are you really that stupid to think that everyone is buying this crap!!! And for what, to feed your pathetic little ego and scam student enrollment fees? Any one of your students has the legal right to cancel their contracts and even sue your a*s for their money back, claiming misrepresentation. You are not who you claim to be.

 You dont even have one government recognized qualification to teach. This means that insurance companies will not insure you and your instructors against professional indemnity. Know wonder you are running scared. You claim to be a master and yet have no control, you practically ruin a students future and hide behind blackmail and a bible. You are nothing more than a traveling evangelist show, moving from town to town spreading B.S to the gullible and taking their money. Time to move on Joe and take your show elsewhere, Zimbabwe perhaps.

I have been a long-time friend of Sifu Josh Phillips and I can say with certainty that he has been honest on this site...and I've seen the hideous scar on his knee. As a friend, he is the most loyal and honest I've had...i'm grateful to have him back in the states. As a Wing Chun teacher, he is the best instructor I've had in any organized sport.  Sifu Josh Phillips teaches with passion, and shares genuine concern for all of his students; both inside and outside of the school.

Sifu Josh is a great teacher and real. I Started training under Sifu at his school in Tahoe 3 months ago. Found this website googling his name and can't believe what I'm reading. Sifu Josh always talks about how good Master Joe is at Wing Chun and how great Australia was! I can't believe people are on here attacking Sifu Josh when HE was got hurt and still tried to help Joe with the medical costs. Sifu Josh has changed my life in these 3 months. He is honest, and his skill is undeniable...he shut down local Muay Thai, BJJ, and System 5 fighters easily.

Hello World. I want to offer up my final statements on this entire turn of events. When I first posted this report, I had just returned to the states, only to find out I could not return to australia due to the extent of this injury and visa limitations. Because I had put so much faith and admiration into Joe Sayah, I felt especially betrayed when he abandoned me and his promises to pay for my medical expenses associated with the injury he caused. Now, this is important. Anyone training martial arts or participating in any other contact sport is aware of the prospect of injury. In Wing Chun, in particular, injuries occur all the time, hopefully none too severe. There were many times in training where I had been gouged in the eye, or "injured" with a sprain, so there were no illusions regarding the "risk" associated with this particular sport/way of life. However, my injury occurred during a private lesson in which Joe Sayah instructed me to practice executing various chi sao attacks. He also stated that he would not counter the attacks, as the training session was focussed on the subtlety of my movement. It is in this dynamic that I believe Joe was negligent in causing my injury, as I was not mentally or physically prepared for the possibility of a full-speed leg sweep. Joe immediately began offering apologies and forgiveness saying he should never have executed that on me, and that his teacher (Grandmaster Cheung) had never hurt him, would I please forgive him. Being a reasonable person and faithful student, I offered Joe Sayah, on numerous occasions, the opportunity to fulfill his promise and obligation of paying my medical expenses, via trade in the way of "Free" training. These offers to work with Joe were ignored and silently refused. Remember, this teacher's loyalty didn't even extend to him visiting me in the hospital...or ever taking me to the hospital. I do not believe I was ever unreasonable in my requests regarding this injury, or the monies still owed to me for training and iron palm medicine that I never received. All I ever asked for was to see a proper doctor and get an MRI; but Joe refused. Finally, I know Joe panicked and acted out of poor judgment more than out of malice following the injury. However, as time went on his disloyalties only grew, and instead of ever owning up to the mistake and helping me, he continued down the path of darkness covering lies with more lies. It saddened and hurt me that he was not strong enough to be truthful, but my intentions for creating this complaint were simply to recover the money owed to me, and to warn others of his character. I believe deeply that Martial Arts is supposed to be about the development of the physical and spiritual self, and that community is crucial in a kwoon/dojo. I can attribute the majority of my truest friends to the Wing Chun/martial arts community. That is why family and community are paramount in my school. I think that is the greatest tragedy in this whole mess, the utter lack of loyalty and community demonstrated through these past actions. My single biggest regret is having made this so public. Though I have been truthful and honest in my comments, these postings are more permanent than my knee injury; and it brought too much negativity to a wonderful style and to too many good people. For that I apologize. Finally, I hope that I have been clear in stating that Joe Sayah has incredible skill in Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu, why else would I have gone to such expense and difficulty to train with him abroad? Though things did not end on a positive, I am grateful for the wonderful training I did receive abroad under his private instruction. My skills and techniques are a direct reflection of Joe Sayah, and responsible for my success teaching here in the states. I wish him, his family, his school, and his students nothing but the best. Hopefully in time, he will apologize to me and we can at least put this to rest.

Wingchun1st Hermosa Beach, California U.S.A. Hmm notice that you wont or cant give your name? I find it interesting in you paragraphs of bullshit you dont comment on the injury or why Joe didnt pay for the outstanding medical bills? By all means coment on his character of joshs if u must, but please, the impact of your relationship with joe has nothing to do with the injury or thereafter, So what are you trying to acomplish exactly? What the hell does your injury have to do with his? I mean sure you do and will get injured in martial arts, however the problem isnt with the injury as such, it is his lack of intervention after, i mean can you honestly belive that not taking someone to the doctors after such a thing occuring normal to you? When you were a bartender and got injured did a co worker or boss make you goto the hospital? i assume so right, so why wasnt he taken! Now as for the comments for how religious Joe is, how does that factor? I was there and overheard those discusting remarks as well as other students, Frankly i dont f**king care whether he is religious or not, he said those things, i really like how quick you are to assume, just because someone is religious they are good people, or that they cannot, or would not be capable of such a thing? even though we didnt have the grace of your presence, so for you to even comment on it makes you look like a f**king idiot. Hmm 911 happened they were religious, The crusades happened, The inqistion occured 500 years dealt out by the Catholics!! Get my drift. You whole assumption, and by assumption i mean you assume you know what happened as if you were there, And perhaps if you read all the posts, no one has said Joe was a bad kung fu teacher, and being that good he can control what he does, the sweep caused a injury, fair enough, you cannot say he handled it right with some green homebrew medicine and some advice from a student who maybe a nurse. Where not in china idiot and im sure if this happened to yip man he would get him treated and make sure he was ok, What a stupid comment to make i can just imagine that you sit home and masterbate watching old kung fu movies thinking your a kung fu hero. Who the f**k cares if he was best man at your wedding or a god father to one of you sons? What bearing does that have on the out standing medical bills or the lost time? I also wanna highlight what you said about the school being like a family, If a knee injury happened to someone in your family would you get them some medical advice? or just leave them be ? Of corse he had no money Dickhole, joe sucked it all away to invest in advance hair studios! Your just another oxygen thief, You come in here post comments, dont even coment on the topic you just comment on how nice he is and that he is your friend, you wanna suck his d**k ect ect At least have some cells in your brain left to relise that he has done something wrong here, and hasnt done anything about it except hide and deny, lie and evade, i wouldnt have thought that echoed his deep religious beliefs! Now for the close, I dont care if sifu would forgive josh, Im sure josh dosent either, of what im not sure of, However what we dont need from the MASTER is forgiveness, How about the money for his medicall bills, that be a start now wouldnt it ? Also while your at it jam your f**king Prayer up your a*****e, not interested in your worship, you wanna worship something ballbag, you go right ahead dont assume anyone here would give a f**k! And now im gonna follow your example .. 'I am going to think out loud, since no one else has the balls' You are a retarded, ignorant religous zealot, This is proven by you intervention in a discussion, Bringing ignorance, at least respond and touch on the issue next time. Think for a minute, (I know you might struggle with this)come out here let me break your knee,make sure you give me all your money and have no job, spend hundreads of hours at the docters,organise travel some how to these places, and lets see how you long you last, then when you are forced to leave and try to expose my crime ill hide and let my Drones comment! And lastly nothing written here requires your endorsement ! Flame on!

Wingchun1st Hermosa Beach, California U.S.A. Hmm notice that you wont or cant give your name? I find it interesting in you paragraphs of bullshit you dont comment on the injury or why Joe didnt pay for the outstanding medical bills? By all means coment on his character of joshs if u must, but please, the impact of your relationship with joe has nothing to do with the injury or thereafter, So what are you trying to acomplish exactly? What the hell does your injury have to do with his? I mean sure you do and will get injured in martial arts, however the problem isnt with the injury as such, it is his lack of intervention after, i mean can you honestly belive that not taking someone to the doctors after such a thing occuring normal to you? When you were a bartender and got injured did a co worker or boss make you goto the hospital? i assume so right, so why wasnt he taken! Now as for the comments for how religious Joe is, how does that factor? I was there and overheard those discusting remarks as well as other students, Frankly i dont f**king care whether he is religious or not, he said those things, i really like how quick you are to assume, just because someone is religious they are good people, or that they cannot, or would not be capable of such a thing? even though we didnt have the grace of your presence, so for you to even comment on it makes you look like a f**king idiot. Hmm 911 happened they were religious, The crusades happened, The inqistion occured 500 years dealt out by the Catholics!! Get my drift. You whole assumption, and by assumption i mean you assume you know what happened as if you were there, And perhaps if you read all the posts, no one has said Joe was a bad kung fu teacher, and being that good he can control what he does, the sweep caused a injury, fair enough, you cannot say he handled it right with some green homebrew medicine and some advice from a student who maybe a nurse. Where not in china idiot and im sure if this happened to yip man he would get him treated and make sure he was ok, What a stupid comment to make i can just imagine that you sit home and masterbate watching old kung fu movies thinking your a kung fu hero. Who the f**k cares if he was best man at your wedding or a god father to one of you sons? What bearing does that have on the out standing medical bills or the lost time? I also wanna highlight what you said about the school being like a family, If a knee injury happened to someone in your family would you get them some medical advice? or just leave them be ? Of corse he had no money Dickhole, joe sucked it all away to invest in advance hair studios! Your just another oxygen thief, You come in here post comments, dont even coment on the topic you just comment on how nice he is and that he is your friend, you wanna suck his d**k ect ect At least have some cells in your brain left to relise that he has done something wrong here, and hasnt done anything about it except hide and deny, lie and evade, i wouldnt have thought that echoed his deep religious beliefs! Now for the close, I dont care if sifu would forgive josh, Im sure josh dosent either, of what im not sure of, However what we dont need from the MASTER is forgiveness, How about the money for his medicall bills, that be a start now wouldnt it ? Also while your at it jam your f**king Prayer up your a*****e, not interested in your worship, you wanna worship something ballbag, you go right ahead dont assume anyone here would give a f**k! And now im gonna follow your example .. 'I am going to think out loud, since no one else has the balls' You are a retarded, ignorant religous zealot, This is proven by you intervention in a discussion, Bringing ignorance, at least respond and touch on the issue next time. Think for a minute, (I know you might struggle with this)come out here let me break your knee,make sure you give me all your money and have no job, spend hundreads of hours at the docters,organise travel some how to these places, and lets see how you long you last, then when you are forced to leave and try to expose my crime ill hide and let my Drones comment! And lastly nothing written here requires your endorsement ! Flame on!

Wingchun1st Hermosa Beach, California U.S.A. Hmm notice that you wont or cant give your name? I find it interesting in you paragraphs of bullshit you dont comment on the injury or why Joe didnt pay for the outstanding medical bills? By all means coment on his character of joshs if u must, but please, the impact of your relationship with joe has nothing to do with the injury or thereafter, So what are you trying to acomplish exactly? What the hell does your injury have to do with his? I mean sure you do and will get injured in martial arts, however the problem isnt with the injury as such, it is his lack of intervention after, i mean can you honestly belive that not taking someone to the doctors after such a thing occuring normal to you? When you were a bartender and got injured did a co worker or boss make you goto the hospital? i assume so right, so why wasnt he taken! Now as for the comments for how religious Joe is, how does that factor? I was there and overheard those discusting remarks as well as other students, Frankly i dont f**king care whether he is religious or not, he said those things, i really like how quick you are to assume, just because someone is religious they are good people, or that they cannot, or would not be capable of such a thing? even though we didnt have the grace of your presence, so for you to even comment on it makes you look like a f**king idiot. Hmm 911 happened they were religious, The crusades happened, The inqistion occured 500 years dealt out by the Catholics!! Get my drift. You whole assumption, and by assumption i mean you assume you know what happened as if you were there, And perhaps if you read all the posts, no one has said Joe was a bad kung fu teacher, and being that good he can control what he does, the sweep caused a injury, fair enough, you cannot say he handled it right with some green homebrew medicine and some advice from a student who maybe a nurse. Where not in china idiot and im sure if this happened to yip man he would get him treated and make sure he was ok, What a stupid comment to make i can just imagine that you sit home and masterbate watching old kung fu movies thinking your a kung fu hero. Who the f**k cares if he was best man at your wedding or a god father to one of you sons? What bearing does that have on the out standing medical bills or the lost time? I also wanna highlight what you said about the school being like a family, If a knee injury happened to someone in your family would you get them some medical advice? or just leave them be ? Of corse he had no money Dickhole, joe sucked it all away to invest in advance hair studios! Your just another oxygen thief, You come in here post comments, dont even coment on the topic you just comment on how nice he is and that he is your friend, you wanna suck his d**k ect ect At least have some cells in your brain left to relise that he has done something wrong here, and hasnt done anything about it except hide and deny, lie and evade, i wouldnt have thought that echoed his deep religious beliefs! Now for the close, I dont care if sifu would forgive josh, Im sure josh dosent either, of what im not sure of, However what we dont need from the MASTER is forgiveness, How about the money for his medicall bills, that be a start now wouldnt it ? Also while your at it jam your f**king Prayer up your a*****e, not interested in your worship, you wanna worship something ballbag, you go right ahead dont assume anyone here would give a f**k! And now im gonna follow your example .. 'I am going to think out loud, since no one else has the balls' You are a retarded, ignorant religous zealot, This is proven by you intervention in a discussion, Bringing ignorance, at least respond and touch on the issue next time. Think for a minute, (I know you might struggle with this)come out here let me break your knee,make sure you give me all your money and have no job, spend hundreads of hours at the docters,organise travel some how to these places, and lets see how you long you last, then when you are forced to leave and try to expose my crime ill hide and let my Drones comment! And lastly nothing written here requires your endorsement ! Flame on!

I've been involved in Wing Chun since 1987, first with helping Sifu Brian Edwards( one of Sifu Duncan Leung's instructors), open his school in Fayetteville, N.C.; a year later I was hurt while bartending, severing two tendons in my right hand; after which I was told I would get back, if lucky, 80% mobility, and 70% strength, in my right hand; Sifu Edwards, had me do a special wing chun exercise, and I have 100% mobility and strength, shortly thereafter, I left the military, and moved to Florida; called the Virginia Beach/Denbey? school, Sifu Duncan's school; and to my surprise Sifu Duncan answered; I asked what I could possibly do to continue my trainning; and he said that Grandmaster William Cheung( he didn't call him Grandmaster) travels all over the country, doing seminars, and he might have instructors in Florida; so I ended up going to a seminar in New York City, and was totally blown away; I then I moved to Ct. and began trainning with Sifu Sonny Whitmore, in Flushings, NY; It was at this time I first met Sifu Joe Sayah, who was assisting Grandmaster, with all of his worldwide tour; he was 19 years old at the time, and way ahead of his time in Wing Chun; Grandmaster introduced him at the beginning of the seminar, as the Lebonese pitbull; and a few years later, after Grandmaster allowed me to teach, told me personally, that Sifu Joe, and Sifu Rick Spain, were the best warriors, he had ever trainned; and that Sifu Joe was the only one who had the spirit, that was felt in Yip Man's school; Grandmaster was very close to Yip Man, and trusted; Which leads me to my point: There is no way, I can ever see these allegations as true; because of a couple of things; If Sifu Joe wanted to hurt you; he can kill you in about 15 seconds; The amount of trainning he recieved from Grandmaster, is far above anyone else in our system. I saw him eliminate 5 guys, two of them instructors, when he was 19; and he over the years, has done nothing but become more humble and gracious. Wing Chun is contact, the whole system, is based on that. Did you think, that you would not get hurt, learning a serious martial art, like Wing Chun. I've seen Sifu send people away who wanted to be private students, because he felt they would not work hard enough, or they might be people like you; I am going to think out loud, since no one else has the balls, but I think that Mommy and Daddy told you no more money; Injuries happen, and the risks are known, and I'm really sorry you got hurt, but there is no way you really think Sifu Joe did this on purpose; It is disgusting the allegations about the young girls, you made, I know how religious Sifu is; he was my best man at my wedding; and a year later was Godfather to my oldest son; You really should be ashamed of yourself, I know this man very well; you were very lucky, to be accepted as a private student; I'll give a news flash, if you would have tried to pull this crap in Yip Man's school you would have been hunted down, and really hurt. This style is very realistic, and instead, and you must have thought it was something else. You are invited to stay with Sifu in his home, this means that he trusted you, you bring dogs? What are you on, crack? He has two small boys, how did you think that was a good idea? The school is a family, and you do whatever, whenever, someone is in need. Sifu Allan, and other Sifus' helped me move and i helped Sifu move, when he was here in California, and I felt lucky, to be asked. How were you raised? It was unfortunate, that you were injured, but just because you have hair on your chest, it does not make you man; I see you as a coward; and frustrated with the situation you were in, your decision to make Sifu Joe your scapegoat; is forgivable, but there is no way, it will ever be forgotten, by anyone that knows Sifu Joe. I guess all we can do is just say a prayer for you. Most religions teach us to feel sorry for people who build their ego at your expense; and not to give power to things that can hurt you; so I feel sorry for you, your injury and your intent to harm one of the greatest guys I've ever known; 18 years now, and I still love him like a brother. Good luck with all of this, I hope someday you see how wrong you are, and I know Sifu will forgive you, but none of us will ever forget this.

I've been involved in Wing Chun since 1987, first with helping Sifu Brian Edwards( one of Sifu Duncan Leung's instructors), open his school in Fayetteville, N.C.; a year later I was hurt while bartending, severing two tendons in my right hand; after which I was told I would get back, if lucky, 80% mobility, and 70% strength, in my right hand; Sifu Edwards, had me do a special wing chun exercise, and I have 100% mobility and strength, shortly thereafter, I left the military, and moved to Florida; called the Virginia Beach/Denbey? school, Sifu Duncan's school; and to my surprise Sifu Duncan answered; I asked what I could possibly do to continue my trainning; and he said that Grandmaster William Cheung( he didn't call him Grandmaster) travels all over the country, doing seminars, and he might have instructors in Florida; so I ended up going to a seminar in New York City, and was totally blown away; I then I moved to Ct. and began trainning with Sifu Sonny Whitmore, in Flushings, NY; It was at this time I first met Sifu Joe Sayah, who was assisting Grandmaster, with all of his worldwide tour; he was 19 years old at the time, and way ahead of his time in Wing Chun; Grandmaster introduced him at the beginning of the seminar, as the Lebonese pitbull; and a few years later, after Grandmaster allowed me to teach, told me personally, that Sifu Joe, and Sifu Rick Spain, were the best warriors, he had ever trainned; and that Sifu Joe was the only one who had the spirit, that was felt in Yip Man's school; Grandmaster was very close to Yip Man, and trusted; Which leads me to my point: There is no way, I can ever see these allegations as true; because of a couple of things; If Sifu Joe wanted to hurt you; he can kill you in about 15 seconds; The amount of trainning he recieved from Grandmaster, is far above anyone else in our system. I saw him eliminate 5 guys, two of them instructors, when he was 19; and he over the years, has done nothing but become more humble and gracious. Wing Chun is contact, the whole system, is based on that. Did you think, that you would not get hurt, learning a serious martial art, like Wing Chun. I've seen Sifu send people away who wanted to be private students, because he felt they would not work hard enough, or they might be people like you; I am going to think out loud, since no one else has the balls, but I think that Mommy and Daddy told you no more money; Injuries happen, and the risks are known, and I'm really sorry you got hurt, but there is no way you really think Sifu Joe did this on purpose; It is disgusting the allegations about the young girls, you made, I know how religious Sifu is; he was my best man at my wedding; and a year later was Godfather to my oldest son; You really should be ashamed of yourself, I know this man very well; you were very lucky, to be accepted as a private student; I'll give a news flash, if you would have tried to pull this crap in Yip Man's school you would have been hunted down, and really hurt. This style is very realistic, and instead, and you must have thought it was something else. You are invited to stay with Sifu in his home, this means that he trusted you, you bring dogs? What are you on, crack? He has two small boys, how did you think that was a good idea? The school is a family, and you do whatever, whenever, someone is in need. Sifu Allan, and other Sifus' helped me move and i helped Sifu move, when he was here in California, and I felt lucky, to be asked. How were you raised? It was unfortunate, that you were injured, but just because you have hair on your chest, it does not make you man; I see you as a coward; and frustrated with the situation you were in, your decision to make Sifu Joe your scapegoat; is forgivable, but there is no way, it will ever be forgotten, by anyone that knows Sifu Joe. I guess all we can do is just say a prayer for you. Most religions teach us to feel sorry for people who build their ego at your expense; and not to give power to things that can hurt you; so I feel sorry for you, your injury and your intent to harm one of the greatest guys I've ever known; 18 years now, and I still love him like a brother. Good luck with all of this, I hope someday you see how wrong you are, and I know Sifu will forgive you, but none of us will ever forget this.

Firstly, it might not be to hard to show that the wrong name was used at the Hospital. I love wing chun, however, it seems that whenever I see a video of a fight, the technique goes out the window and you can't distinguish them from any other style fighter. It does seem that there is a tradition in wing chun or any Chinese martial art to offer token payments and/or perform activities for Sifus as a sign of respect. The student chooses to voluntarily do said favors or offer stipends, but there does seem to be an 'air' of expectation among sifus to have such activities and / or payments made because they probably had to do the same growing up in the system. To this day I believe the Grand Master is expected to be offered favors, etc.. It can be considered a tradition of respect by acting as a sort-of servant to Masters, etc.. Some view the Master as a Parent and who wouldn't do whatever they could for their parent? However, I grew up in a home where my parents did everything for us. Attending seminars is also considered a sign of respect and is expected of students who are serious about their kung fu. The whole kung fu family can be quite an enjoyable experience, however, I can see where there might be situations of students being taken advantage of by 'some' Sifus, after-all, people are all different and have different expectations. 'IF Sifu Saya actually made unkept promises and/or injured Josh, I could see a student who was willing to pay $15K to study being appeased with an attentive sifu which would avoid legal actions, etc.. He must have been serious about his kung fu to pay this amount and to move to Australia. I can't comment about it, but it would seem that were I the one who injured the person I would help Josh find a way to get the medical attention he needs. If Josh has insurance, I can't understand why that insurance wouldn't pay for services in another country. They usually have provisions for this. If they don't, returning to the US for treatment is smart so you can use your insurance. Sifu Sayah might have invited Josh to return after his surgery and he would make it up to him via lessons emphasizing hand techniques until such a time his legs gets back into action. I would assume a person who is injured by his Sifu could be appeased were he availed the opportunity to have independent instruction beyond the original agreement as a form of payment. Could you imagine having say a few hours a week of personal time to work on Chi Sao over an extended time period? This would be worth resolving the issue for. Such an event can cause tempers to flare, but maybe you can take a bad thing and make it good. Maybe you can all realize that the fear of incurring large expenses (not accusing as I have no idea) on the part of Sifu can make someone sort of run away and anger can build in the one injured when they feel neglected. However, maybe peace can be made. Josh experienced pain, expenses, and will lose valuable time over the next couple of years. However, maybe all can be forgiven and Sifu might be willing to make amends with Chi Sao over the next few years. Maybe a couple of times a week or even every other week, etc.. and follow through with the promise. Josh's hands will be great in over the ensuing years and when his leg is well enough, he can get to work on that aspect. As far as alternative medicine stuff, realize this. Even many in health care are novices when it comes to judging treatment effectiveness. You can't trust so-called research in massage journals, in alternative medicine journals because the publishers are themselves very inept when it comes to judging research. There are no real controls on the articles they publish. Just applying an ointment and having the person say, "wow that worked great" is known to be insufficient evidence of 'cause and effect.' Even research in some reputable journals fail the test of accuracy and can fill with flaws. I've noticed mostly lay people get into these herbs etc.. and swear by them, but they don't know what it is they don't know as they are not trained in research and how to minimize variables which skew results. In other words, I believe the people who use Iron Palm herbs believe it does what is claimed, however, it's based upon faith, not upon science. You can accomplish iron palm w/out the herbs more than likely and to assume that this medicine will absorb throughout your skin to create miraculous healing is just that, an assumption. People will say, "I used that stuff and my hands were better the next day." This is kind of humorous when you have some research knowledge; however, this is how snake oil has been sold throughout the generations. Before spending your hard earned money on herbs or joining some alt health schools, take the time and study something called "critical review of research." Remember, alt journals are not run by scientists so the weakest of research gets published; they are published more for the marketing value of products which hence gives incentive for manufacturers to advertise in their journals so they can make money. You can't just rub something on your body and assume that 'how you feel' or how quickly you heeled is related to it. One simple thing to learn is that many many diseases and/or conditions are either cyclic in nature (resolve, reoccur resolve, etc..) or they have a natural history and will self resolve over a time period (wks, months, etc..). This is why snake oil has always worked in selling people. They even testing college students with sugar pills and they believed that the sugar pill helped them. So don't throw your money away on magic. It's fun and novel to believe in stuff, sort of gives you a good family feeling, but it's really a joke, perhaps with good intention though. Hope you all resolve your problems. I suggest do this as from what I read, there could be more expense in legal litigation, etc... Sifu, if you injured my knee, I might be happy to take free lessons as a form of payment over a sufficient time periods. Josh can use his hands, chi sao would be a great start, etc.. When his leg is better, he will still have the opportunity to become an instructor Peace! CU

Recently i was searching the web for the mornington wing chun school's address, when i came across this web site, and out of curiosity i checked it out and read most of the articles, sadly i couldn't believe that some people waste their time on grudges so insignificant, and the saddest part of it all they include third parties not associated with the original complaint. In my book you keep that sort of stuff between yourself the second party and a solicitor if you require one, not the whole world, because if you're wrong it might turn around and bite you on the arse. I've had injuries similar to yours in my life time, some a lot worse than your knee. From the age 16 to 22 i practised karate, some times i came to school with fractured ribs, a broken nose,and all sorts of soft tissue injuries which accrued due to other students, different instructors, but mostly from my own mistakes, but i never held a grudge against any one and carried on with my life and training. I remember my father signed a Disclaimer form when i joined the karate school, and i did the same when i turned 18, i new the risks involved in practicing martial arts from the start, after all it's not lawn balls you're learning, there is some chance of injury in anything you do, that includes drowning in a bowl of soup, but you don't slender the cook. I was at work doing night shift when a police dog ripped out half of my calf muscle, back then i lived on my own and had no help from any one, sure work cover paid part of my wages and police the medical fees, but it wasn't enough to pay my mortgage . Guess what, i carried on on my own for 4 months with out making a fuss, and returned to work not holding a grudge against any one, s**t happens sometimes and its for a reason, mainly to test us. Recently i spent similar amount of cash but in Australian currency moving to Sydney for similar reasons you moved to Australia, i lost all that money i invested by moving back to Melbourne 4 months later because i expected too much, too quickly with out considering all the fine print, which is life has no guaranties, I've learned a lot from my mistakes and if any thing I'm glad from my experiences, because they taught me how to ,so to speak turn s**t into gold and get on with life no matter what it throws at you, spend you energy on better things than petty grudges and slandering others. On the record, regarding Sifu Joe, Instructor Mark, they've been nothing but helpful, respectful , encouraging, and very professional in their conduct towards myself and other students, male or female, and i have no problem encouraging my brother to sign up his kids when they're old enough. Regarding the higher ranking student Borum, you don't see too many students turning up to class unable to train, but still keeping an eye on junior students correcting them, and making sure they do the right thing. My advice to you is learn to meditate it will calm you and help to control your emotions not the other way around. Hope your knee gets better soon.

Dude i am not a watchdog, Just saying it how it is Maybe u should open a school thats what joe did (SIFUllofshit Joe) Wu shu is crap go do boxing Unless your ambisions in life is to become a dancer??

LOL.. You claim to be a Sifu now? Sifu Josh Phillips? Thats hilarious. What a joke. You state your knee was dislocated in May 2008, yet I know from others that you were a level 4 student. ( Yes, I seen your level 4 sparring grading, thats probably removed from youtube) and now after 8-11 months you call yourelf a Sifu? Who is your teacher? You must be a very fast learner for someone who has just recovered from surgery,rehab, and is now jumping through levels, gradings, experiances, forms etc. Teaching little kids doesnt count you as a SIFU! William Cheungs Correspondance DVDs must do you wonder since your studying Traditional Wing Chun ( As stated on your website )! Yet, you get your watch dogs to say and I quote " Joe is only the self-proclaimed 'best student' of Grandmaster Cheung. GM Cheung does not list Joe on his website in any capacity, he is not even on the family lineage. www.cheungswingchun.com " Where are you on the lineage if your teaching Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu Funny enough, I dont see YOU on there either. I also noticed on your website that you do Aromatherapy, are you even a Certified Aromatherapist? Also, I would love to see your certificate for qualifying Level 10 (Instructor level) Calling yourself Sifu comes cheap, might aswell start calling myself Sifu Vlaski and opening a school in Keysborough where I live. Even though, I study Wu Shu, I might just get away with murder. What a joke!

My name Is Daniel Thomson My brother Chris and myself were members of Dandenong Wingchun for 16 months After The favour towards students that would lower them selves to the teacher to gain levels quicker,Aswell as Promises Made from the teacher That we paid for that never happened. My attitude Started to change aswell as my brothers How ever i wont speak for him We were paying Sifu Joe $150 dollars a month to attend his Club On the 14 -16 months i attended 12 months my contract had ended Now People suggesting i was trying to break a contract when it was void anyway is untrue. Now Here is what really happened... I rang Joe and explained how i was not returning to his club and as how my contract was void i had no time or money owning, I will admit there was times my account bounced on him so i would pay cash aswell as a ten dollar fee he nominated for the account bouncing. Now If anyone Really Knows me Personaly They will see i keep good company, are a strong Loud but Fair person and i look after my close friends like family In class i have never been rude or unfair to any student, These claims he or other students make is incorrect. I was accused at creating politics at Joes Club which i deny i will admit to saying how it was, after talking with Joe about This subject once he dismissed it. Joe Was pressuring Josh for the reason i Left his school as i left a message on his phone saying i was not returning josh told him i was angry at the favortisum,Attitude ect He told Josh to tell me not to bother comming back! Hew then told people i was Kicked out for creating Politics, When Most people know who the GEORGE BUSH of Politics in that schoold really was. aswell as joshs injury and observing joshs situaction, Taking him to the hospital picking him up from surgery,taking him food, cleaning up for him ect for a long time. Now you may think why would i do this, Because he is from the states lives by himself has no family here or close friends,but He is a good mate loyal Honest, all Joe did was ....nothing.... except... Popped his knee in, soked his leg in His homemaid medicine and made him drive home, The guy has been bed bounded for Months, Who honestly can say that is part of training ? or is it fair? and he has no right to defend his actions by saying he is a nice guy and a wonderfull teacher what has that got to do with josh? I and two other peole heard him say to Josh he isnt gonna pay $1000 dollars for his leg for medical bills. When there is a email from him saying to send him the recipts and he will pay it. His idea of DUTY OF CARE is ringing a friend who is a nurse Now let me highlight what is wrong here, Firstly since when does a nurse call the shots on popping a knee back in ? Are we on the set of Er? Would she advise to take him to the hospital as part as her duty of care? Bringing him a 2nd hand knee brace and some crutches she stole from Her workplace isnt really fixing the problem is it? (but shows people just how stupid she is ) The first Person Joe rang was his assistant Instructer Mark why? Why not ring a Ambulance they are trained for that Joe is not. What would happen If a student stopped Breathing ?? WHY? TRY AND DEFEND YOUR ACTIONS! INSTEAD OF SAYING HOW NICE A PERSON YOU ARE IM SURE HITLER WAS NICE IF YOU WERE TO DINE WITH HIM!!! This is where joe has made a big mistake !!!!!!! You have no right to call yourself a MASTER You have children in some of your classes for gods sake Do the right thing!!! That is what has happened I have all the records of my commication with Joe via email including him dismissing that i was causeing politics in his school i aslo have the emails threating me with legal action. Now Certain people at His Kungfu School Remember me or have a opinion of myself I dont need to defend myself i am here and will be to prove his guilt. Now He is saying apart from his date arriving here this whole article is a lie ? When A Person above defending his teacher Knew all about it ? Even if no one can prove he did anything he still has a duty of care for his students and if he dosent have insurance he is a idiot. The reason he has been on this Site is because he is guilty he owes money to josh ect i have covered most of that above, Now i will say that my words above are nasty and harsh but i belive well deserved. Now if anyone wants to contact me to ask [email protected] i can forward Any infomation ect. Now let me make myself very clear If you threaten me again i will make my presence very well known Bit more resorcefull than you think (Cousinlovers) (Why is there 6 shoes outside Masters Thai sweet) CHEATING IS A SIN REMEMBER

Firstly id like to say i have been perhaps a little harsh, But what i cant stand is a in Justice, Here is a Teacher someone who u trust,respect and look up to based on there merits skill ect. Now all this bullshit s**t about how good or nice Sifu Joe is , So f**king what i can post here that 5000 women said my p***s tastes like bublegum so what! The fact is Sifu joe is only looking out for number one His threats to me personaly about sueing me? hasnt happened Know why readers? He is full of s**t for him to sue me id have to be writing Something untrue which isnt the case now he can get 5000 students to say the sun shines out his a*s or that his pubic hair heals cancer so f**king what.... That really isnt relivant to the fact he has disabled my friend forcing him to leave here possiably permantly wrecked his leg for the rest of his life. Now some one this people may know joe as a nice guy fair enough Why dont u ask him about Josh, ask him one question, why didnt u take him to the hospital after u poped his knee back in?? Or why to this day he hasnt payed for it ? His excuse oh josh decided to go to his own docs he is stubbon ect so what he has a duty of care to students i dont care what he wreckons that is the way of things so he will have to explain why three days later a friend took him because his knee wwas over 3 times the size from swelling! Now as i have stated earlier he is a conman and his "Loyal Students" bum chums what ever u wanna f**king call yourselfs have no idea of what happened and i honestly belive if conman said if u guys eat Human Bio matter would improve your fighting skills u would ! So like i have said if your gonna back Joe make sure u know what the f**k you are talking about as i was there and witnessed both sides i know what the f**k is going on and i have ample proof docs ect. Sifu Joe is Fast indeed he can spit out 10 excuses a second!! Josh is very independant!! Dan was talking care of everything!! I asked Him if he needed anything!! He wanted to use his own doctor!! He landed wrong!! Want i want to hear from a Leader/Teacher/Mentor IS OK MATE I f**kED UP ILL TAKE CARE OF IT ! and Follow through And Handle your s**t not try hold his money u owe him because he wont remove this article !! Are you that stupid u cant read! Now the next thing id like to tackle is this and im gonna quote u Joe "Josh is like a prince born with a silver spoon in his mouth and is never satisfied with the wonderful things he is given and always expects more like it is his birthright, this contrasts greatly with my character as I was brought up by immigrant parents in the projects and appreciate every little thing I have, and I work hard for what I've got. I thank God every day for my blessings. I go to bible study every week. I don't think I am perfect like Josh believes himself to be by pulling the splinters out of everyone else's eyes while he himself has a beam in his own eye" Did u read over how f**king Stupid You sound Think about what You just wrote? If josh has a beam in his eye You Have a f**king ocean liner in yours Brought up In the projects ? Maybe Your crimal record Might Be brought Up ? Bible study ??? What that makes u a better person than everyone else? Oh so someone who goes to bible studies is better than someone who ??? fill me in The next thing im expecting to hear from you is physical threats right? Or from students perhaps?? You know why after 30 years as a martial artist you main school was above a smelly shitty fish shop and now your other is in a factory ?? Because you are a idiot not only do you make very bad decisions Like josh for instance, but you think because your so good what ever you do will be brillant! Like for instane your Play Pen Or cage fighting ring in your other school looks like somewhere you would take a kid to play in, The funniest thing is you were playing on having cage fights there with no proper medical staff or Docters!! This just shows how stupid you are you do realise that it is illeagal with the fighters permission or not and if someone dies you can be charged with manslaughter?? Idiot... But i guess if someone does get injured in this Cage fight your expert Medical Training Will shine! You "magic" iron palm medicine cant cure brain damage or a internal bleeding Perhaps on a sunday instead of going to your bible studies take a f**king common sense course you bloody idiot. So not only have you handled the situation with josh wrong it doesnt matter because your decisions are so dumb you will always fail. Now All this aside Sifus Skill in wing chun is unmatched Regardless of my personal feelings towards him. How ever i wouldnt send my dog to train there. Like a Product at your local supermarket there is a shelf life and sifu joe the way u conduct your self with certin matters Is off!!! So by all means continue to "TRY" and talk s**t get thousands of people to talk s**t end of the day You injured Josh, Bullshitted about it changed your story a thousand times denied it on this site when witness have seen u admit it there is docs proving the Damage and how it happened,People Who will say it happened so in the end if u did nothing Wrong prove it! As i would expect your behavior from someone my age not a master of kung fu Righteous (CousinLovers)

Hello all, Firstly, quite hilarious to be quoting George W, though it fit quite nicely :). Secondly, let me just say that I originally created this consumer report as a LAST resort. I never intended for this to become some public display of accusations or unfounded emotional banter, both of which have been the crux of people's responses on this site. What I need for everyone to understand is this: I lived with, and was closer to, Joe Sayah than almost any of his students. I trained with him 5-6 days a week, including 4 hours of private training weekly (most often at his home), I changed his son Matthew's diapers, I typed up his student contracts, I helped to configure his new Mac Computer. From going to the beach with him and his boys, to traveling to Thailand together; Joe and I were close...so please someone tell me what I have to gain from all of this?! Please, lets be real here..ask yourself: Why would I have left Australia and stopped training, after ALL I'd done to get there unless I had to? What gets me the most out of all of this, is that even on this site, Joe never owned up to the injury, or his moral and professional obligation to provide care to me. All I've ever wanted was what was promised to me, by Joe Sayah; that he would pay the medical bills associated with the injury HE caused. Instead, however, Joe was far more concerned with information getting out that he injured me, than actually injuring me, so the lies began. Half of my friends in Australia I haven't even been able to say good-bye to, because he has forbidden them to speak to me, for fear of being expelled from the school. I'm telling the public that this man is immoral and cannot be trusted. Most people responding to the comments on this page, do not know Joe Sayah the way I do. Most of the students simply come in, bow, say hello and get their training on, the way it should be. For those of you who STILL question the validity of my claims, answer this for me. Why does Joe show Wing Chun instructors on his website, that aren't part of his association and who don't have anything to do with his schools? Sifu Alon has nothing to do with Joe, because he learned of Joe's real character before I did, and as such left the association and went out on his own. Master Eric Oram, is a student of GM Cheung and part of the WWCKF association, and has NO affiliation with Joe Sayah. Sifu Jocelyn is Joe's sister, who has not taught or trained since before Joe returned to Australia...yet there they are, erroneously listed as though they are current affiliates/instructors of the school. Just one very brief but tangible example of Joe's approach to life...smoke and mirrors. Now, people have been asking me to post the original emails I have. To them I reply: I do have all of the emails I have referenced throughout these postings. However, I do not feel it prudent to post them publicly until the legal phase of this nightmare has concluded. Since Joe has not only failed to pay for my medical bills, but also attempted to blackmail me by illegally holding onto monies owed me, he's left me very few options. And for anyone who cares: I've just recently been reviewed by my doctor, and since the 2nd procedure, my knee is doing remarkably well! I've just begun strengthening and been told that I should recover to about 95%. I'm walking without much of a limp and very excited about being able to move around again!

To Whom It May Concern, While I cannot comment on any activities that may have happened in Melbourne, I can speak to the quality of training and the fairness in dealings that I had with Sifu Joe Sayah while he was here in Los Angeles for the 5 1/2 years I trained with him and/or his various designated instructors. The following is applicable: 1) Sifu Sayah's techniques are of the highest quality, and his ability to explain relatively esoteric concepts is very good. I reached a "black sash" ranking under his system of instruction, which is added to a tai chi "instructor" certification I earned previously under the late Dr. Marshall h*o'o. I have trained with a variety of other instructors in a number of styles across a "martial arts career" spanning 32 years, and I am most satisfied with what I learned under Sifu Sayah. I hope to be able to someday travel to Melbourne, economics willing, and continue studying under Sifu Sayah. Note: It took me approximately 4 years to achieve black sash ranking, in the spring of 2006. 2) In all his dealings with me, he was fair and above board. That included the traditional way in which the student/sifu relationship was and is maintained. Filial respect for one's instructor, once one has made the decision that the sifu is worthwhile, is a long-held tradition in martial arts. It is my personal belief that a minor percentage of modern students do not necessarily understand what it is to "eat bitter", and that can color their perceptions about the relationship they have with their sifus. 3) Wing Chun, like other martial arts, is a contact art. Traditional wing chun inevitably involves contact and various degrees of injuries. Also, I know that in other arts, such as silat and aikido, one is often thrown or swept in a manner that can be injurious if the student/practitioner is not prepared for it, regardless of the care of the sifu or sihing during training. I have been swept to the floor by Sifu Sayah on at least one occasion that I can remember, and was grateful for his caution during the speed of his execution of the technique. I have also been "tapped" with punching contact by Sifu Sayah to the teeth. Given the hardness of his hands, due to his iron palm training", I would have lost teeth if he did not have the control I know he has. 4) In all the time I trained under Sifu Sayah, I never heard him make a sexually suggestive and/or inappropriate remark to any female student of any age. 5) Because of the arrangements I had with Sifu Sayah, the time I put volunteering into the school resulted in a number of "extra" private training moments with Sifu Sayah, lasting up to an hour in length. One time I was included in some training with a senior instructor in such a way that I believe accelerated my understanding of the concept of forward pressure. Without that particular additional training outside of the normal group class time frame, I do not believe that I would have achieved the rank I did achieve in the time frame involved. 6) Part of the time spent volunteering at his schools included time teaching one's "si dais" (juniors in rank) to gain experience towards higher rank capabilities. Those times that I helped with junior students, he was present or a black sash or higher level instructor was present to oversee the training. I personally know that if I had misapplied a technique with a student, or used an "unapproved" technique from another style that I had studied, I would receive verbal admonishment. In front of other students, this can be quite embarrassing and is good lesson for aspiring instructors to understand. I am unaware of any classes that Sifu Sayah allowed ranks lower than black sash to actually teach without higher supervision in Los Angeles. 7) During the time I trained with Sifu Sayah, I attended 4 seminars with Grandmaster William Cheung that Sigung held in one of Sifu Sayah's school locations. 1 additional seminar was held in Sifu Eric Oram's school in Santa Monica, but where Sifu Sayah was also in attendance as was part of those instructors helping the seminar attendees with the various techniques being taught. I personally retained a copy of "Inside Kung Fu" that had Grandmaster Cheung "demonstrating" a palm strike on Sifu Sayah's face on the cover for memento's file. So I know for a fact that Sifu Sayah trained under Grandmaster Cheung and has been schooled in Grandmaster Cheung's style. For private reasons, Sifu Sayah and Grandmaster Cheung are no longer affiliated. But I personally heard Sifu Sayah say on 2 separate occasions in 2006 that Grandmaster Cheung was the "bible" on the art and techniques involved in the style of Traditional Wing Chun. In my presence, Sifu Sayah was always respectful of Grandmaster Cheung's techniques, achievements, and insights. Hopefully these observations will help those trying to decide what they can about the report posted at Ripoffreport.com. As I said before, I was very satisfied with my training time under Sifu Sayah, and would train under him again if given the opportunity. With All Due Respect...

George Bush once said, "you're either with us, or against us". No middle ground is a fallacy and illogical, there is more than two positions an individual the take. I do not intend to take sides, judge character, or preach morals. What I would like is more information for current and future brothers and sisters to make an informed decision. Josh - can you post the email correspondences between you and Joe; and Mandy; and whoever else was involved in this event. Joe - can you explicitly confirm or deny the claims against you.

Its me again Joshs leg is now completly f**ked and i know that is a strong term to use but i belive it expresses the true nature of it. Sifu Joe Sayah has made one responce to this report, Firstly he cant or wont even say he did disclocate joshs knee or that he provided any first aid treatmemt or offered to pay for anything And do u know why Because he is scared! Scared because he is gutless and a coward how dare he continue to spit and twist the facts and threaten to sue people sue me for what ?? Telling the truth ? Perhaps Joe in your bible studies they may teach you about a thing called being a Man and acepting responability For your actions! Not hiding and refusing lying and cheating people I hope you are scared because you must relise that there is repercusions for your actions! I think you are a fake person i cant belive you can hide away in your school and pretend it never happened i think you need to get in contact with josh and as a act of good will pay the money you owe him not offer to pay him if he removes this article, As you may or may not be aware if you read the fine print you cannot remove a post. Also Sifu Joe if you want to threaten me again with legal action i have every right to write here it is not slander or defamation unless it is untrue!!! So prove me wrong, I also wanted you to know that i am making a formal report about your and marks behaviour around students and persons under the age of 18 as you are aware you do not have a working with childerns permit witch if i am correct is ileagal. So Joe perhaps if you can take your head out of your a*s Fix what you have done and stop pretending to be Bible tourist!

Hello. Unfortunately the initial surgery has left me with a knee that does not bend, due to scar tissue build-up. I am meeting with a surgeon today to discuss my two options for a second surgery. 1. They scope the knee to make sure everything is stable. Then, in the most barbaric fashion, they use brute force to get my leg to bend, snapping all the scar tissue. The concern with this is, it may be too soon to the initial reconstruction for this procedure to be successful. 2. They scope the knee and and cut away all the scar tissue adhesions. Until this is done I must remain on crutches as that leg has absolutely no muscle in which to support the knee. I was also told that "twisting" sports may not be in my future, due to the extent of this injury by my Doctor last week the 13th of August. This means that Joe Sayah's negligence has potentially cost me my career in martial arts, my hobbies of skiing, s****.. I would like to note, Joe Sayah has not changed in the least. He still has not repaid me monies owed, nor has he stepped up for any of the medical bills he is responsible for. It should be mentioned, in case I have not previously, that Joe Sayah sent me an email saying "please go ahead and bring in the receipt for the doctor when you receive it i'll take care of the bill," back on May 14, 2008. Not only did he verbally agree to pay for the injury he caused, I also have it in writing AND he is legally negligent/liable; yet he turns his back to this responsibility.

Josh I hope you have a speedy recovery. Here is what I can reccomend from what I've dealt with: 1. Determine what you want, how much you want and stick to the facts! 2. Gather all evidence, be sure to keep backups! 3. File in small claims court or a civil court, if you win you can be reimbursed for the total amount that's been awarded to you and legal expenses. 4. You can always involve the local media! 5. Legal consultation is free, ask somebody who has experience in the field. If everything falls into place and you have evidence then you're set and good to go. It looks like this guy is trying to distort the facts, he seems to want to keep your money and hope that his name precedes him to keep afloat. I wish you the best of luck and feel free to contact me for any additional help with this!

IF the OP was such as meal ticket and such a source of free labor, WHY would anybody damage their free labor? Doesn't make sense. Kind of like killing a slave.

IF the OP was such as meal ticket and such a source of free labor, WHY would anybody damage their free labor? Doesn't make sense. Kind of like killing a slave.

IF the OP was such as meal ticket and such a source of free labor, WHY would anybody damage their free labor? Doesn't make sense. Kind of like killing a slave.

Perhaps this is ramesy, i made a Assumtion Perhaps if it is ramsey your might be as so bold as to identfiy yourself so i may show you how stupid your coments are! And i quote "You fell WRONG on your knee, and landed incorrectly not because of 'Joe executed a very dangerous front leg sweep on me without ANY control'. You fell wrong, and couldnt handle the after effect, and who else is there to blame" Now let me get this right if some one sweeps your leg out and you hit the ground and wreck your knee it is the persons fault for landing wrong huh oh perhaps maybe u could enlighten us as to land ? Perhaps you may have pratised this tech and landed on your head? So it is joshs fault for landing wrong? oh my god i thought that was the stupidist thing you could say buy i was wrong And i quote again "Them two boys were expelled because they were constantly causing trouble between students and you VERY WELL know it. These two boys have also had a history in being unattentive in class, constantly requesting to suspend their membership" Now those two men refer to myself and my brother now id like to confirm this once and for all with a email i got from sifu i can send copies if the need be "Firstly, I never thought you were spreading politics in my school. The incident between you and Ramsey I chose not to take sides and give you both the benefit of the doubt" "Your Brother as Josh put it was the person in the first place that told me that you were upset with me ,I had to hear it from another person second hand information is always twisted and turned and thats what i got .I figured since you did'nt even bother calling me back or come down and visit me i assumed i was guilty of what ever you and Josh fabricated.Now i relize that Josh played me and everyone including you and your brother you never even thought of coming down and talking with me" excaltly i left the school i wasnt kicked out i wasnt constantly asking to cancel my membership i wasnt even on a contract since jan this year. And i quote "Ive said what has needed to be said, and my time here has come to an end. Keyboard Warriors its has been a pleasure. I hope you guys are exposed by this false article made upon Master Joe" Keyboard warrior? Whats that supose to mean i didnt know making a consumer warning/complaint was ileagal you cant even get your facts correct i have emails from sifu that will verify i was not causing trouble or trying to break a contract/membership i was training for over a year and a half in masters class atended most of the gradings ect i never created polictics always was respectful when in class now what i cant tolarate is sifu saying he was gonna get his doctor to look after him and joshs choice was to get his own is a load of crap, If that was the case why after 3 days i decided to take him to the doctors and get it attended too??? Another thing is sifu a doctor? is he legaly allowed to pop someones knee back in? He has a duty of care to his students and if injured they should get qualified medical advice like mark did with his mental illness. I am a idiot no peon you are the fool! Why dont u look at both sides of the penny before rushing to sifus aid With a gun and no bullets. And if it is Ramsey u know i run across a few pitures from thailand u might like too see. Its a picture of you and some thai boy or girl cant really tell. The end of the day sifu threating to sue me for posting here is a bloody joke go right ahead like i told him why dont u consolt a lawyer before you make threats I am not making threats just writing facts, Facts i can unlike some people provide with proof solid proof. Let me ask you all this if i was your boss /teacher and i injured you would u blame your self for falling wrong? I would expect to be taken to a doctor straight away ? That makes sifu guilty and he is to blame ? Who says sifu didnt do more damage by poping it back in? He has no training or qualifaction as a medical practioner? He got advice on a phone from a nurse? How the hell would she know with out even looking at it? And the $6000 joe gave josh was not for his medical bills it was his tution because he wasnt gonna be able to train for 8 months diagonsed at that stage. He said and i have 3 people that can verify this in court if that is the case that he refused to pay $1000 dollars for his surgery. Now i quote again "Joe Sayah has never been HARD on his students, he has nothing to proove. He grandmasters best student" Do u recall Joe breaking Daves ribs? Nothing to prove? Breaking joshs leg ? nothing to prove And as far as to be grandmasters best student well i belive it to be self proclaimed As there isnt even reference to it on the lingage. Once again what myself my brother,josh and a few others belive is the truth Who ever cant or wont hear well just go along being sheep If u want to see physcial fact then get in touch with me and i can show you. But The best and i mean the best Laugh of it all is that who ever belives Joe hasnt even got the intelligence to look at all the Facts! Baaaa Sheep buy the way idiots perhaps you should read the fine print I agree that by posting this report/rebuttal that the State of Arizona has exclusive jurisdiction over any disputes arising out of this posting Feel the sting

For anyone reading this series of posts, I have nothing further to add. I felt it prudent to rebut the ridiculous fabricated comments of Joe Sayah with factual accounts. I may post original emails and doctor reports, but I feel people are now making this personal instead of factual. As I've maintained, I have all the documentation to back-up everything I've said in all my posts. While it would be easy to get caught up in slinging bs back and forth, the facts are there for the world to see, and thats all I wanted.

Wow, Ramsey! This is a new low for you, without question...and that is saying A LOT! lalalalalala

First of all, This isn't Mark nor Borum or anyone you would expect! Once again you have failed to prove your intelligence. Mark wouldn't know how to use the internet if it bit him on the butt. I love how straight away you assume its Mark, I just love it. 2nd of all, Ive said what has needed to be said, and my time here has come to an end. Keyboard Warriors its has been a pleasure. I hope you guys are exposed by this false article made upon Master Joe. Josh, good luck with your knee :)

Well, now I see that "Old Reliable" has come out off the sidelines and rushed to his teacher's aid. I have no idea why Mark has gotten himself involved, and though he makes it difficult not to get personal, I will stick only to the factual accounts that pertain to my injury and the money Joe owes me. I think what I'll address first, is Marks strange statement: "Josh would disrespect Joe Sayah, insult his teaching skills, and make false claims that Joe has robbed him of his money 3 WEEKS before arriving into Australia." I have not claimed that Joe stole money from me until after the injury, and by failing to provide proper medical care to me. Next, I'd like to answer two very very good questions posed by Mark. "why did you continue training under him? Why did you go train under a manipulative man?" The truth is, that I had to ask myself that question on more than one occasion. The reason I still left to Australia after he bailed on the partnership, is because I had already committed myself to the goal of becoming a Wing Chun Instructor; my job in Los Angeles was forfeit and my home was sold. As Joe's clear manipulations and mistruths continued to take shape before me, I made a decision to keep my mouth shut and finish my training; with no intention of having any long-term affiliation with the man. I would never want my school associated with him, his business practices, or those he keeps close to him. There is nothing I've claimed about this injury, my requests for his assistance, or his theft of my money and training medicine that I cannot back up with email evidence. Spouting off ridiculous "I over heard you speaking to a certain student ..." rumors is in poor taste and absolutely ridiculous. I suppose they might be credible if YOU were credible. However, you suffer from depression, are medicated, and have a history of bi-polar in your family. It is also public knowledge, and has been discussed between students and sifu numerous times, that you have an unhealthy obsessive relationship with Sifu. You blindly follow his every word as if he is a divine being; you even host private bible studies with Joe at your home, though you were not religious prior to idolizing him. In reference to your question, Mark, "You claim that Joe Sayah had shafted you, and robbed his students. If that is the case, why is there over 100 students training under this man?" Good and fair question. Of the senior students who were originally coerced into paying an additional $50 per month for "Masters Class," how many are left? I know of at least 6 who did see Joe for his lies and broken promises and they dropped their Master's Class memberships accordingly. Also, most people are on 1 year, or longer, contracts and just want to train; and there is no denying Joe's skill in Wing Chun. There is major doubt in his ability to control that skill, however; and most people recognize that ALL he has to offer is his knowledge of Kung Fu, as its the only truth he possesses. THE KNEE: Mark, are you serious? You were the first person Joe called as I lay on the floor moments after my knee was brutally dislocated; as he frantically asked for your wife's phone number, as she is a nurse. (This is the same nurse that proceeded to give erroneous medical advice over the phone for an injury that could only properly be diagnosed with a full medical exam, including stability testing.) My knee didn't dislocate because I fell on it, I fell because my kneecap was sticking out the side of my leg and all sorts of ligaments were torn. I had EXTENSIVE internal bleeding in the knee joint including a small bone fragment. Getting poked in the eye, kicked in the groin, punched in the face, and bruised up is MOST DEFINITELY part of Wing Chun. However, suffering basic and "accepted" injuries in day-to-day training with your peers is one thing. Suffering an injury, during a private lesson with a "Master" 30yr veteran of a style, that would require a full knee reconstruction, (OPERATION REPORT TO BE POSTED SOON!) is something entirely different. We are not professional fighters competing in tournaments, training for combat. This was a routine private lesson without random elements to what we were drilling. Joe broke this agreement, executed a front leg sweep randomly and at 100% speed, causing this injury. This is negligence, plain as day. Additionally, Joe is only the self-proclaimed "best student" of Grandmaster Cheung. GM Cheung does not list Joe on his website in any capacity, he is not even on the family lineage. www.cheungswingchun.com So far as the inappropriate comments, somewhat sexual in nature, you're right...I wasn't wearing a wire during Kung Fu training so I haven't proof other than my memory, and those people present who have heard, and no doubt continue to hear them. If someone wants to dismiss this one tiny detail from the infinite list of character flaws, so be it. You're way out of your league on this one Mark. "Joe also expelled two students from class...Them two boys were expelled because they were constantly causing trouble between students and you VERY WELL know it. These two boys have also had a history in being unattentive in class, constantly requesting to suspend their membership." Joe has, as recently as last week, pulled students into his office during class to preach "his version" of my injury. During these private "meetings" students have been told that if they associate with me they are to leave the school, that they "must choose sides." I will get them to post that truth on here soon enough. Lastly, I don't know how you had the privilege of speaking to "this student" when I was not specific about who I was referencing? I did this so as not to involve people who shouldn't have to carry the burden of Joe's negligence and dishonesty.

Well it appears that "Master" Joe Sayah has offered his first rebuttal full of simple-minded babble and falsities, so allow me to bring him back to reality: Firstly, Joe Sayah did welcome me into his home, as part of a full-time training tuition totaling $15,850.00 AUD. For the few weeks I was there, I contributed weekly to the butcher/groceries. I was forced to leave due to his sudden restriction on allowing my dogs to stay with me at his residence. I'm not really sure what about our respective upbringings is relative to this situation, unless its just a poor attempt of his at pity; but I would like to offer this ACTUAL relevant bit of information: Joe claims that none of my story is true, aside from my arrival in Australia. Why then, did he send me this email on July 27th? "27th July, 2008 I will refund your $400 dollars and give you your iron palm medicine when you: 1) remove your slanderous letter from www.ripoffreport.com and in its place post a letter of apology indicating that what you wrote was untrue, the only truth in it is the day you arrived in Australia and that you suffered a training injury and everything else was fabricated. 2) email me a copy of this apology letter. 3) mail every individual that you have emailed your slanderous letter a copy of your apology letter. In a court of law, the letter you have written makes you liable for compensation for slander. Sifu Joe Sayah" PLEASE NOTE: I REQUESTED THESE ITEMS BE GIVEN BACK TO ME IN 3 PREVIOUS EMAILS BEFORE POSTING THE RIP OFF REPORT. So now Joe believes it is ok to blackmail me, by unlawfully withholding monies owed to me? He holds what is legally MINE and demands I remove my public consumer complaint?! Does anyone else see a problem with this? I have the original email and will be happy to forward it to anyone who denies its validity. Next I would like to address Joe's chief argument, that "My students can testify to my honesty, integrity, and character." If this were true, why is the school Joe started in Los Angeles, no longer in his association? The very student he trained up to instructor and provisional master level, abandoned the association, changed his logo and has absolutely no affiliation with Joe whatsoever. Clearly this is indicative of his "honesty, integrity and character." For those buying his BS, see for yourself at wingchuncalifornia.com; I welcome ANYONE to contact Naomi or Sifu Alon to get their take on Joe's character and integrity. Joe claims that he never cancelled private lessons on me. I have email documentation, of my repeated requests that he make up the 10 missed private lessons that were paid in full, in advance. Emails available upon request. Additionally, the one time I did miss private lessons, was when my parents arrived in Australia, in April 2008, to visit me. My parents didn't simply fall out of the sky and land in Australia, this was a trip planned well in advance. In fact, Joe encouraged me to take time off and travel around with my parents for the 10 days they were in town. It turns out, however, he only encouraged me because he had no intention of making up the 4-5 lessons I missed during their stay. I HAVE EMAIL DOCUMENTATION OF THIS CONFRONTATION AS WELL. I DID teach Kid's classes on a regular basis, until it became apparent that I was being taken advantage of. There are several students and parents who could verify my involvement as an assistant instructor. I also have emails from Joe's wife, Mandy Sayah, checking to see how my knee was doing. She even told me that she was afraid to let Joe do any sweeps on her, for fear of suffering a similar injury. I have a letter from an expert of Wing Chun Kung Fu, who has been teaching it for over 40 years. He states that Joe Sayah has always lacked proper control. It is beyond low for an individual to hide behind and/or use religious affiliation or attendance as a cover for their flawed and indecent character. It has been my experience that individuals who are genuinely spiritual and good natured don't need to boast to the world about how many times they go to bible study, rather their actions speak for themselves; just as Joe's have here. Joe also stated "Josh never even told me he was upset about anything to try to work out whatever issues he had civilly like adults." I have numerous emails asking him for his help with the medical bills he promised to pay. I have emails asking that if he could not come up with the money, would he be willing to offset the medical expenses by doing some of my remaining training for free. I have emails asking to speak to him in person about it. Emails Available Upon Request Although I'm flattered that Joe appreciates my ability to write in a coherent and articulate fashion, no doubt he envies my ability to use REAL words as well, but my claims are all factual. I truly wish these were outrageous fictional stories of my imagination, but my 6" scar, increasing medical bills, inability to work, vacant house in Australia and canceled enrollment at ACNM are painful reminders that THIS IS REALITY!

Well First of all i have 4 people that can verify the Sifu Joe and Mark have made sexual jokes towards minors aswell as many anti homosexual remarks. And mark Saying josh is a key board warrior makes me laugh as u might recall u started crying after a student tapped your face in full head gear and u starting crying in front of a full class. Now let me fill everyone in On this little dirty wing chun crowd here, Well Lets see Mark A assiant instructor Regualy makes sexual jokes about children and also has a somewhat sexual attraction almost sicking atraction to sifu joe aswell as this mark is on mental medication for a mental illness so id have to be a little worried if he has had his pills let alone trust anything he says. And Borat another would be instructer soon will be investagated by the goverment for stealing centerlink payments, and working cash jobs boosting about how much money he has. And last but not least Sifu Joe Or i like to refer him as Conman joe, I have taken care of joshs s**t when sifu up and left him a huge debt. Nothing josh has written is false in fact i belive a lot more should be written, For example i am fairly certain parents would not like the fact sifu joe does know background checks on assisant instructers or himself and i also belive any one working with childern has to have a working with children card ect and apporite background checks, This disturbs me When marks own wife boasts if front of 14 year old student "oh my god i look like ive been raped" or when mark talks about "a tight 9 year old a*s" these comments are sicking and have no place to be said or heard amonst minors nor adults for that matter. Perhaps channel 7 might reply again for the story im trying to arrange we have all the documents doctor bills and lawyer info so we will show the truth and sifu and mark can try and bend it however the truth will be heard. On another note mark and joe i quit the school after this unjust action occured i was not expelled thats fact, Also mark a broken finger and a kick to the nuts isnt quit the same as $9000 dollars in medical cost and 12 months rehab hmm perhaps u didnt take enough pills today, But then again no one ever aqused u or joe of being intelligent!!!

Okay before I begin to correct the editor of such a fabolous hollywood fiction I would like to mention that I have I have been training under Joe Sayah for 1 year and a half and I have witnessed nothing but honesty, passion and respect towards myself & other fellow students. Josh, this man invited you into his rom, broke bread with you and treated you like a 2nd father. Not only that, Joe Sayah had to put up with the LIES you began spreading to the students in the school. You claim that Joe Sayah had shafted you, and robbed his students. If that is the case, why is there over 100 students training under this man? Surley enough none of them are BLIND to notice such criminal acts. None of them have left! They are still there learning! I have been a senior instructor under Joe Sayah and I must say I witnessed the 1st arrival of Josh, became his friend and welcomed him into my home and became friends. Yet, under my roof I noticed another side of Josh. Josh would disrespect Joe Sayah, insult his teaching skills, and make false claims that Joe has robbed him of his money 3 WEEKS before arriving into Australia. Mind you everyone readind this thread, that this occured only 3 weeks when arriving into Australia. Now Josh, if you notice that Joe Sayah was a thief, and wanted to only make money why did you continue training under him? Why did you go train under a manipulative man? Why continue to MOVE to Melbourne? Are you that desperate to learn how to fight? If so, here you are hiding behind a computer making false claims and accusations over a teacher that is loved and respected by thousands world wide. Where is your evidence Josh? Your a keyboard warrior! Not only that, I over heard you speaking to a certain student telling them that your going to try make as much friends as you can from the Dandenong Academy, build a strong relationship. Not because you care, but because when you open your new school you had people already "sold" into coming. I quote: " Never mind that I had left my life behind to train with this man. Never mind that I was in a PRIVATE lesson with him and he was 100% responsible for violently dislocating my knee." Now, lets all speak about the knee! Your in a school of martial arts, a school where we all learn to fight. People in every school, and every style tend to get injured. I have suffered a finger to the eye, kicked into the testicles and broken 2 fingers. This all occured not by Joe, but by other students like you, who are willing to learn self defense. I have also witnessed students being hurt by Joe Sayah but not to that extend that you call it a silent lesson or lecture, but because they are still learning to adapt to new reflexes. Joe Sayah has never been HARD on his students, he has nothing to proove. He grandmasters best student! You fell WRONG on your knee, and landed incorrectly not because of "Joe executed a very dangerous front leg sweep on me without ANY control". You fell wrong, and couldnt handle the after effect, and who else is there to blame. I quote: "Joe Sayah makes inappropriate comments, somewhat sexual in nature, to young girls, under 18, in his classes and promotes similar behavior from his most senior students and assistant instructors" - Where is your proof? Where is your evidence? So far you havent provided us with single shred of evidence. This part of your fiction tale also inspired me to correct you once more I quote: "Joe also expelled two students from class after my injury occurred. These two students were the two brothers who never left my side and made it possible for me to eat and attend all my doctor's visits. Since they knew the truth, and Joe recognized them to be a risk to his lies, deceit and dishonor, he expelled them before he could be further exposed." Them two boys were expelled because they were constantly causing trouble between students and you VERY WELL know it. These two boys have also had a history in being unattentive in class, constantly requesting to suspend their membership. I quote: "He has manipulated one student for over 2 years, simply to keep his website maintained for free." I had the privlidge on speaking to this student and he informed me and I quote: " No, I volunteered to do the website knowing I was given 5 free private lessons for creating/designing it, and 1 Free private lesson per update. Not only was I given private lessons, I was given free Kung FU T Shirt, one of his novels, and a Grade 1-3 Training DVD as payment. I never ever requested money off Joe nor did I want any money. My relationship with Joe Sayah from student was escalated to friendship and we became good friends and still are" From what I have read in the comment above, I have come to the conclusion that is that Josh Phillips is an attention seeking baby that manipulates students and friends in joining his side/team. Your nearly around the corner of being 30 Josh, be a man and do the right thing.

Over the last twenty years I have been fortunate enough to teach hundreds of students' martial arts. My students can testify to my honesty, integrity, and character. The only truth in this letter from Josh Phillips is the date he arrived in Australia and that he suffered a training injury, everything else is slander, libel, fabrication, and defamation of character. Josh stayed in my home upon arrival in Australia. My wife and I welcomed him like family. We cooked for him, did his laundry, and cleaned up after him. He also stayed with my own parents who did the same for him. Josh chose to rent his own house, for his own personal reasons, our hospitality was never withdrawn. I don't believe anyone is good enough for Josh. Josh is like a prince born with a silver spoon in his mouth and is never satisfied with the wonderful things he is given and always expects more like it is his birthright, this contrasts greatly with my character as I was brought up by immigrant parents in the projects and appreciate every little thing I have, and I work hard for what I've got. I thank God every day for my blessings. I go to bible study every week. I don't think I am perfect like Josh believes himself to be by pulling the splinters out of everyone else's eyes while he himself has a beam in his own eye. I never, ever canceled a private training lesson without notice, but Josh did. I was the one waiting at the dojo while Josh didn't even bother to call. This is indicative of the entire nature of this slanderous letter, whatever Josh has written, the truth is the opposite. It's very upsetting when you invite a person into your family, have them in your home and the thanks they give you is a stab in the back. Josh never even told me he was upset about anything to try to work out whatever issues he had civilly like adults. I knew Josh was a creative writer but this is best selling fiction. Sifu Joe Sayah

I had initially paid Joe Sayah $15,850.00 AUD, for 1 year of full-time training, including 4 hours of private lessons weekly. (He still required me to pay for my grading fees, though others were getting graded for free) I was the ONLY student to be required to pay full up-front. This was also supposed to include boarding, for myself and my dogs; but quickly changed, disallowing me to bring my dogs over from the US, costing me thousands in boarding costs. Before pressing Joe any harder about paying for the injury he caused me, through his own negligence, I requested that 1/2 of my tuition be paid back to me, since I would need that money for the medical bills. He paid me back 1/2 my tuition LESS $400 AUD. I emailed him to ask for the $400 along with a $500 "Iron Palm" training program I had paid in advance for, to this day he has not responded. I also wanted to clarify some other details about the initial post: I realize that I was unclear about my inability to take care of myself, as I referenced the dates between May 12, and June 23. On June 23, 10 days after my knee reconstruction, I took the 16hr flight to Los Angeles so that I could have my family take care of me, and so that I could utilize my medical insurance for the months of physical therapy (3 days a week) that lay ahead of me. It should be noted, that as of today, July 13th, I am still on crutches, and not expected to begin walking/limping on my own for another 3-5 weeks. Physical therapy currently consists of exercises attempting to get my knee to bend to 90 degrees, and will continue for 2 more weeks before I, hopefully, am ready to begin bending past 90 degrees. This has prevented me from going to the Australian College of Natural Medicine in Melbourne; which I was enrolled in for the August 5, 2008 semester. Having withdrawn from this course, due to the extent of this injury, my rehab schedule and my physical limitations, I will not receive my student visa. This now requires me to fly back to Melbourne, from Los Angeles, just to sell my car, pack my bags, break lease and move home. This in turn has cost me to waste $5,000.00 in immigration/attorney fees, as well as losing 10% of my school tuition due to cancellation fees. I cannot begin training to finish my instructor course for 6-12 months, leaving me with few options for an income. All of this was presented to Joe Sayah with the request that he help off-set my medical bills by waving some of the remaining full-time/private training fees (once I was able to train). He refused by ignoring my repeated requests and by refusing to have a face-to-face conversation about it. He has always boasted and "sold" people on stories of how he paid for a student of his (back in the US) to have his tooth repaired, after Joe broke it; and how he paid for this same student to have hernia surgery, though Joe apparently had nothing to do with the injury. He told this story and set of events to me countless times, to reassure me that he would always take care of me. I'm still waiting to be "taken care of."