- Report: #345528
Complaint Review: Chas Roberts Air Condition - Phoenix Arizona
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Chas Roberts Air Condition
9828 N. 19th Ave Phoenix, 85021 Arizona, U.S.A.
Phone:
602-328-4401
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Chas Roberts Air Condition Phoenix Arizona ROC#019133 Refuses To Replace Defective Inside AC Coil They Knew Would Fail Do To Known High Failure Rates In My Community Phoenix Arizona
Chas Roberts Air Conditioning was the installation company that installed the complete AC unit in my home when it was built in 2003 in the Community of Royal Ranch in Surprise, Arizona. I was the second owner and the first to live in the home. The home was completed in October of 2003 and I purchased the home in April of 2005 from an investor.
On 7/9/07 I called Chas Roberts service number and requested a service technician come to my home and check my AC unit as it was blowing hot air. The technician arrived and discovered there was no refrigerant in the system. He checked and discovered a leak in the inside coil located in the attic. He Recharged the system and advised me to call the service number and schedule an appointment to have this coil replace which I did. He also informed me the coil was still under warranty.
I called Chas Roberts to schedule the repair and the customer service person confirmed the part was under warranty, but I would need to pay $540.00 for labor required to install it. I questioned what the $540.00 was for and she told me it was for 8 hours of labor, 2 technicians 4 hours each. At no time was I informed this 540.00 included any other charges. I questioned how the time of 8 man hours was arrived at and she told me it was their book rate for this repair. I asked her what this book rate was and she told me it was the average time it took to do this job. As a followup I questioned her why they could not give me a time quote based on my home as they were the ones who installed the AC unit. Her response was to then tell me the 8 hours was an estimated time and that it could take longer. I informed her the could take longer could also mean it could take less. Her response was to in effect tell me to take it or leave it.
I scheduled the replacement of this coil. As I waited for the scheduled replacement date I remained uneasy about the answers I received about the 540.00 labor charge and wanted better answers.
By fate I spoke to my next door neighbor in passing about my AC problem before the coil arrived for installation. He informed me these inside coils were known to be defective and Chas Roberts and the homebuilder Fulton Homes had been replacing these coils free of charge at one point.
I also asked several AC technicians and to a person they told me it should take a total of 3 hours, two technicians 1.5 hours each, to install this new coil. One of these technicians worked on installing these AC units in this community. They all were also aware of the high rate of inside coils failure.
After discovering, collecting and processing all this information I now had an understanding as to what happened.
The Community of Royal Ranch in Surprise, Arizona, the phase I live in built by Fulton Homes was started in late 2002 and a number of homes were completed by the Spring and summer of 2003. As people moved into their new homes complaints about their AC units not working correctly began to be received by Chas Roberts and Fulton Homes. It was discovered that in a large number of these the culprit was the inside AC coil in the attic was leaking.
The reason these coils failed was Chas Roberts used coils designed for older AC systems designed to use a refrigerant which required a lower pressure than the new Puron systems that required a higher pressure they installed. Chas Roberts, Fulton Homes and the part manufacturer Carrier all know of this problem and began to, not proactively, replace theses units.
Despite this serious and known problem Chas Roberts continued to use these coils in homes under construction and did nothing to address the ones in completed homes. If your home was completed or under construction and you did not move into the home or the problem happened after their three year policy of replacing these coils, the first year free then they had a cost for 1-2 years and a higher cost for 2-3 years. If your coil failed beyond the 3 year from completion date you are out of luck, OH I mean 540.00. So the lucky one had theirs fail in the first year and get it fixed for free.
............This is why this is a problem:
Continuing to use a part known to be defective; and not replacing the ones in homes under construction or alreadly built is called fraud. These coils were not going to fix themselves and they knew that variable such as when your home as completed, fall/winter, the time variable of how long it might take for the coil to fail, all benefited them. They made a business decision to save money by not being responsible;and now they get to make money to correct this. This is unconscionable. This would be like me breaking out car windows and then getting paid to fix them.
Not notifying owners of this serious problem thus denying them the opportunity to have their coils checked to see if they were in fact the correct type or not is called concealment.
Working with Carrier and Fulton Homes to quietly address this problem for the purpose of shifting the cost and liability onto the consumer is called collusion.....
I called Fulton Homes and they confirmed this but said they no longer would do this and refused to assist me in any way. I called Chas Roberts and they said they would not install the coil at no cost to me. They also went on to say the 540.00 was a discounted rate and they could have charged, I believe it was 640.00 or so, do this job.
After repeatedly calling Chas Robersts and Fulton Homes about this and getting nothing but arrogant and mindless answers over the phone where what is said becomes a pissing contest of he said she/he said. I decided to write each company a letter, in fairness to them to allow then an opportunity to respond to my complaint before I took further action, in writing stating their position. Both Companies ignored my letter. In fact I wrote several letters to both companies and never received a written reply from anyone.
(I had to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and contact channel 10 news to get a reply from Chas Roberts, but I got one!! And now I have their position in writing as to what of they knew of and when they knew of it, and other information that clearly shows their willingness and belief we don't need to address this and that gives examples that are not related to the issue at hand by being used out of context. I posted their reply at the end of my complaint).
From Chas Roberts I received several replies to my phone calls. Each phone conversation was essentially about what we are not doing to do or to imply I did something to cause this problem. Arrogance and being dismissive over the phone they were good ,as are all cowards. It takes no special type of person to do this. I say be a real man or woman and stand on what you say so others can judge your actions. Each time I asked for a written copy of whatever their position of the moment was I never received one. I never received a written reply as they knew this would likely be problematic to them in justify their actions.
If you are right, not because you think you are right, fight the battles.
The best way to deal with companies like this is to give them an opportunity to responded to your complaint and if you do not receive a response that addresses your complaint to your satisfaction don't waste your time playing their game on their terms. They will blow you off and all you get for your effects is high blood pressure. They do this to discourage people from fighting for their rights and out of arrogance to believe they can dictate the outcome of something based on their own desire to do so despite the facts. They know to get a lawyer will cost you money. Play the game on your terms this way. File a Compliant with the Better Business Bureau, The Federal Trade Commmisson, or any other agency handling these types of issues, contact your local news station and use sites like this to let others know. Let these third parties know of your complaint and have them tell you what they think.
Businesses like these rely on people not being able to compare notes so they can determine if the problem is unique to them or not. Let them get emails and letters from consumer protection agencies, groups and other they cannot simply blow off. These entities have the power and or ability to punish this type of conduct and or expose it to the world so the world get to make decision as to the merits of the issue at hand. Business all want you to believe they are the best make them earn that belief by doing the right things.
Chas Roberts Respone below:
On June 26, 2008, the business provided the following information:
Contact Name and Title: Daryl Royse GM Service
Contact Phone: 602-328-4401
Contact Email: [email protected]
Here is the response I sent to a local TV station today that was also contacted:
The "parts" warranties in our industry are the bane of my existence. Unfortunately this is not an uncommon issue with customers.
I explain parts warranties in this industry like this: If your car had a similar parts warranty scenario. One day you notice your acceleration not what it used to be and take it in to the dealer. After awhile the service advisor comes out "Mr. Yaskin we found the problem is rather minor, you had two bad spark plugs. For $190 we can have you on the road shortly". You ask about your warranty and he replies, "the warranty covers the $10 for the two new spark plugs but not our $95 diagnostic fee or the fee to have them replaced of $95". At that moment you don't feel the warranty has a lot of value. However if the situation was a blown transmission and the guy tells you "hey you still have to pay $2,000 but the warranty covered the $2,000 transmission", you may feel a bit better.
I have enclosed a copy of the manufacturer warranty and our standard flat rate guide that we use for Parts in Warranty repairs. Without speaking to our area service supervisor, I don't know who has said what to who?
As for the equipment we installed, it is an "ARI" approved match up (ARI is the governing body that says a combination of equipment is rated for a SEER of this or a capacity of that) as well as it was a recommended match up of equipment from that manufacturer, Carrier. We also have tens of thousands of these installed across the valley in service today.
As for the program that he describes regarding Fulton Homes. Fulton Homes asked Carrier to "assist" it's homeowners that had a coil failure with the first three years of ownership by participating with the overall cost of the coil replacement. So for a few years, such homeowners could get the work done at no cost.
As a company, we felt the service life of the product wasn't what we would like and discounted the repairs for customers who had a failure within the first 5yr of ownership. One thing this customer left out is that point. Say he had a failure of any other brand (and it happens) we would have came out and charged him $65, $75 or $85 for the service call depending on the response time selected. Then when we got there and couldn't find a leak at the outdoor unit, we recommend an Electronic Leak search where we use an expensive tool to sniff the system for a small leak ($109). Then when we did find the leak at the indoor coil, we would have charged up the system at $44lb for the refrigerant. So that call alone can be $250. Then the normal rate to do the coil is $685. It appears the area service supervisor negotiated a rate of $540 for the whole job?
Our flat rate for in warranty parts is the normal flat price less the wholesale cost of the part. None of the manufacturers Parts warranties consider welding a part (makes no sense to me either). In this case, our flat rate includes refrigerant, labor, welding, a refrigerant filter drier, system evacuation and profit.
As much as I preach to our associates to say "the replacement cost for that part is ______" they tend to almost all say "the labor to replace that part is _____".
All of our technicians carry a flat rate book that has the one page of in warranty parts repairs and then 100 pages of out of warranty repair prices. I believe that flat rate is the best way. Then every customer knows they are paying the same as every other customer.
This customer is also welcome to use any licensed contractor to replace his coil because the coil is under the Carrier part warranty and not any warranty with Chas Roberts. Our warranty obligation was up a few years ago with this customer. We will extend a full refund of any money paid to us, if he desire that.
The local Carrier wholesaler is a company called Sigler (623-388-5100). We deal with a person by the name of Jeff Powers there. This customer is also welcome to call 1-800- carrier to inquire about the products we installed in his home.
As a contractor, I HATE these warranties because they pit the customer against the contractor. Every unit made today has a 5yr (or longer) part warranty but most repair companies will not honor them. First the manufacturer makes me buy the part. Then do the job. Then I have to return the part with several of their forms filled out with all sorts of information and a copy of the invoice where I bough the part. I pay one of my people to drive across town and stand in line at the manufacturer to return the bad part. If any thing at all is out of sorts, I am not given credit for the part purchase. Leaving the contractor buying a part for a customer that was given the part.
I hope I have explained everything? I also apologize for being long winded.
Daryl
Ralph
Surprise, Arizona
U.S.A.
On 7/9/07 I called Chas Roberts service number and requested a service technician come to my home and check my AC unit as it was blowing hot air. The technician arrived and discovered there was no refrigerant in the system. He checked and discovered a leak in the inside coil located in the attic. He Recharged the system and advised me to call the service number and schedule an appointment to have this coil replace which I did. He also informed me the coil was still under warranty.
I called Chas Roberts to schedule the repair and the customer service person confirmed the part was under warranty, but I would need to pay $540.00 for labor required to install it. I questioned what the $540.00 was for and she told me it was for 8 hours of labor, 2 technicians 4 hours each. At no time was I informed this 540.00 included any other charges. I questioned how the time of 8 man hours was arrived at and she told me it was their book rate for this repair. I asked her what this book rate was and she told me it was the average time it took to do this job. As a followup I questioned her why they could not give me a time quote based on my home as they were the ones who installed the AC unit. Her response was to then tell me the 8 hours was an estimated time and that it could take longer. I informed her the could take longer could also mean it could take less. Her response was to in effect tell me to take it or leave it.
I scheduled the replacement of this coil. As I waited for the scheduled replacement date I remained uneasy about the answers I received about the 540.00 labor charge and wanted better answers.
By fate I spoke to my next door neighbor in passing about my AC problem before the coil arrived for installation. He informed me these inside coils were known to be defective and Chas Roberts and the homebuilder Fulton Homes had been replacing these coils free of charge at one point.
I also asked several AC technicians and to a person they told me it should take a total of 3 hours, two technicians 1.5 hours each, to install this new coil. One of these technicians worked on installing these AC units in this community. They all were also aware of the high rate of inside coils failure.
After discovering, collecting and processing all this information I now had an understanding as to what happened.
The Community of Royal Ranch in Surprise, Arizona, the phase I live in built by Fulton Homes was started in late 2002 and a number of homes were completed by the Spring and summer of 2003. As people moved into their new homes complaints about their AC units not working correctly began to be received by Chas Roberts and Fulton Homes. It was discovered that in a large number of these the culprit was the inside AC coil in the attic was leaking.
The reason these coils failed was Chas Roberts used coils designed for older AC systems designed to use a refrigerant which required a lower pressure than the new Puron systems that required a higher pressure they installed. Chas Roberts, Fulton Homes and the part manufacturer Carrier all know of this problem and began to, not proactively, replace theses units.
Despite this serious and known problem Chas Roberts continued to use these coils in homes under construction and did nothing to address the ones in completed homes. If your home was completed or under construction and you did not move into the home or the problem happened after their three year policy of replacing these coils, the first year free then they had a cost for 1-2 years and a higher cost for 2-3 years. If your coil failed beyond the 3 year from completion date you are out of luck, OH I mean 540.00. So the lucky one had theirs fail in the first year and get it fixed for free.
............This is why this is a problem:
Continuing to use a part known to be defective; and not replacing the ones in homes under construction or alreadly built is called fraud. These coils were not going to fix themselves and they knew that variable such as when your home as completed, fall/winter, the time variable of how long it might take for the coil to fail, all benefited them. They made a business decision to save money by not being responsible;and now they get to make money to correct this. This is unconscionable. This would be like me breaking out car windows and then getting paid to fix them.
Not notifying owners of this serious problem thus denying them the opportunity to have their coils checked to see if they were in fact the correct type or not is called concealment.
Working with Carrier and Fulton Homes to quietly address this problem for the purpose of shifting the cost and liability onto the consumer is called collusion.....
I called Fulton Homes and they confirmed this but said they no longer would do this and refused to assist me in any way. I called Chas Roberts and they said they would not install the coil at no cost to me. They also went on to say the 540.00 was a discounted rate and they could have charged, I believe it was 640.00 or so, do this job.
After repeatedly calling Chas Robersts and Fulton Homes about this and getting nothing but arrogant and mindless answers over the phone where what is said becomes a pissing contest of he said she/he said. I decided to write each company a letter, in fairness to them to allow then an opportunity to respond to my complaint before I took further action, in writing stating their position. Both Companies ignored my letter. In fact I wrote several letters to both companies and never received a written reply from anyone.
(I had to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and contact channel 10 news to get a reply from Chas Roberts, but I got one!! And now I have their position in writing as to what of they knew of and when they knew of it, and other information that clearly shows their willingness and belief we don't need to address this and that gives examples that are not related to the issue at hand by being used out of context. I posted their reply at the end of my complaint).
From Chas Roberts I received several replies to my phone calls. Each phone conversation was essentially about what we are not doing to do or to imply I did something to cause this problem. Arrogance and being dismissive over the phone they were good ,as are all cowards. It takes no special type of person to do this. I say be a real man or woman and stand on what you say so others can judge your actions. Each time I asked for a written copy of whatever their position of the moment was I never received one. I never received a written reply as they knew this would likely be problematic to them in justify their actions.
If you are right, not because you think you are right, fight the battles.
The best way to deal with companies like this is to give them an opportunity to responded to your complaint and if you do not receive a response that addresses your complaint to your satisfaction don't waste your time playing their game on their terms. They will blow you off and all you get for your effects is high blood pressure. They do this to discourage people from fighting for their rights and out of arrogance to believe they can dictate the outcome of something based on their own desire to do so despite the facts. They know to get a lawyer will cost you money. Play the game on your terms this way. File a Compliant with the Better Business Bureau, The Federal Trade Commmisson, or any other agency handling these types of issues, contact your local news station and use sites like this to let others know. Let these third parties know of your complaint and have them tell you what they think.
Businesses like these rely on people not being able to compare notes so they can determine if the problem is unique to them or not. Let them get emails and letters from consumer protection agencies, groups and other they cannot simply blow off. These entities have the power and or ability to punish this type of conduct and or expose it to the world so the world get to make decision as to the merits of the issue at hand. Business all want you to believe they are the best make them earn that belief by doing the right things.
Chas Roberts Respone below:
On June 26, 2008, the business provided the following information:
Contact Name and Title: Daryl Royse GM Service
Contact Phone: 602-328-4401
Contact Email: [email protected]
Here is the response I sent to a local TV station today that was also contacted:
The "parts" warranties in our industry are the bane of my existence. Unfortunately this is not an uncommon issue with customers.
I explain parts warranties in this industry like this: If your car had a similar parts warranty scenario. One day you notice your acceleration not what it used to be and take it in to the dealer. After awhile the service advisor comes out "Mr. Yaskin we found the problem is rather minor, you had two bad spark plugs. For $190 we can have you on the road shortly". You ask about your warranty and he replies, "the warranty covers the $10 for the two new spark plugs but not our $95 diagnostic fee or the fee to have them replaced of $95". At that moment you don't feel the warranty has a lot of value. However if the situation was a blown transmission and the guy tells you "hey you still have to pay $2,000 but the warranty covered the $2,000 transmission", you may feel a bit better.
I have enclosed a copy of the manufacturer warranty and our standard flat rate guide that we use for Parts in Warranty repairs. Without speaking to our area service supervisor, I don't know who has said what to who?
As for the equipment we installed, it is an "ARI" approved match up (ARI is the governing body that says a combination of equipment is rated for a SEER of this or a capacity of that) as well as it was a recommended match up of equipment from that manufacturer, Carrier. We also have tens of thousands of these installed across the valley in service today.
As for the program that he describes regarding Fulton Homes. Fulton Homes asked Carrier to "assist" it's homeowners that had a coil failure with the first three years of ownership by participating with the overall cost of the coil replacement. So for a few years, such homeowners could get the work done at no cost.
As a company, we felt the service life of the product wasn't what we would like and discounted the repairs for customers who had a failure within the first 5yr of ownership. One thing this customer left out is that point. Say he had a failure of any other brand (and it happens) we would have came out and charged him $65, $75 or $85 for the service call depending on the response time selected. Then when we got there and couldn't find a leak at the outdoor unit, we recommend an Electronic Leak search where we use an expensive tool to sniff the system for a small leak ($109). Then when we did find the leak at the indoor coil, we would have charged up the system at $44lb for the refrigerant. So that call alone can be $250. Then the normal rate to do the coil is $685. It appears the area service supervisor negotiated a rate of $540 for the whole job?
Our flat rate for in warranty parts is the normal flat price less the wholesale cost of the part. None of the manufacturers Parts warranties consider welding a part (makes no sense to me either). In this case, our flat rate includes refrigerant, labor, welding, a refrigerant filter drier, system evacuation and profit.
As much as I preach to our associates to say "the replacement cost for that part is ______" they tend to almost all say "the labor to replace that part is _____".
All of our technicians carry a flat rate book that has the one page of in warranty parts repairs and then 100 pages of out of warranty repair prices. I believe that flat rate is the best way. Then every customer knows they are paying the same as every other customer.
This customer is also welcome to use any licensed contractor to replace his coil because the coil is under the Carrier part warranty and not any warranty with Chas Roberts. Our warranty obligation was up a few years ago with this customer. We will extend a full refund of any money paid to us, if he desire that.
The local Carrier wholesaler is a company called Sigler (623-388-5100). We deal with a person by the name of Jeff Powers there. This customer is also welcome to call 1-800- carrier to inquire about the products we installed in his home.
As a contractor, I HATE these warranties because they pit the customer against the contractor. Every unit made today has a 5yr (or longer) part warranty but most repair companies will not honor them. First the manufacturer makes me buy the part. Then do the job. Then I have to return the part with several of their forms filled out with all sorts of information and a copy of the invoice where I bough the part. I pay one of my people to drive across town and stand in line at the manufacturer to return the bad part. If any thing at all is out of sorts, I am not given credit for the part purchase. Leaving the contractor buying a part for a customer that was given the part.
I hope I have explained everything? I also apologize for being long winded.
Daryl
Ralph
Surprise, Arizona
U.S.A.
