Complaint Review: Steven Svastis DC - Baldwin Park California

In response to your questions about Chiopractic education, our programs are 3.5 or 4 year programs which include an internship in the last year of school. You are correct that the requirements for entrance are less strict than for medical school. However, each year these requirements are increasing and there is more competition for space. There is no requirement for "marketing" new patients for graduating. The National Board requirements set minimum numbers of patients that each candidate must examine, and minimum numbers of manipulations, and minumum numbers of treatment modalities. Once these requirements are met, the intern can then go on rotations or have an externship in a chiropractor's office. Some do in fact do rounds or internships in hospitals. However, this is a very small number as the need for chiropractors in that setting is very small and the desire to be in that setting is small on the part of most chiropractors. Today's DCs are trained in diagnosis and treatment planing and can give medical advice regarding a patient's condition. We cannot do anything regarding medication because that is not part of our curriculum. Instead, our curriculum focuses on natural treatments and non-invasive procedures. Additionally, you cannot get licensed until you pass a National Board exam that tests your competency. Some states require an additional state board, while others require a certain score on the National test. So you were greatly misinformed on this part of your statement. The tests you mentioned that you thought were bogus are surface EMG and also thermography. It sounds to me like you were in an office where they were poorly explained and poorly performed. These tests do have some diagnostic validity as a screening test to generally illustrate where there is a problem. The more thorough test you talk about MDs doing is the needle EMG, which does have more validity and specificity, but is also a painful and expensive test. To be a chiropractic neurologist is much more than just a few weekend courses, and at the end the DC is NOT a neurologist. He or she is simply a DC that has completed additional training and certification in neurology. That's all. As for your outcome with surgery, I'm glad to hear it was great. You have beaten the odds. Statisticallly, some back surgery failure rates are near 90% after 1 year. I'm also sorry to hear about your mom. Metastatic cancer of the spine is very rapid and can disguise itself as a regular injury. Realistically, that is a diagnosis that can easily be missed until it is too late. Even had he caught it one the first visit, there is very little that can be done at that point. My cousin died of the same thing, and he was going to DCs and MDs for back pain. He had xrays taken and it didn't show up. By the time it was large enough to be seen on xray, it was too late. Once again, I'm sorry for your loss. You are correct that manipulation is not a cure all. Sadly, there are some charlatans in my profession that try to make it look like this. So subscribe to almost a "religion" of chiropractic beliefs. Most of us do not follow those ideas, but the problem is that some of the most vocal and gregarious DCs are the ones who run high volume cure all mills. That is not what most of our profession is like. So the important thing is to go to a good DC, just like you would go to a good MD, and get a second opinion when you are in doubt. Remember, the MD that you see may be someone who went to med school out of the country and who got in with the kind of grades you mention for chiropractic school. All he has to do then is to pass the state licensing boards and he can practice medicine. And communication skills are NOT part of the curriculum anywhere. The biggest complaint people have about the doctors is their lack of personality and lack of communication skills, so I have no idea where you get the thought that only people with solid communication skills become MDs or nurses. So be sure you interview your DC or MD well before you hire them, and if you think that one is a quack, try a different one. And you are putting medical and nursing programs on way to high a pedastal saying they only take the cream of the crop. Remember, there are always programs out there in nursing and medicine that will take people whose qualifications are sketchy. But to discredit a whole profession for the few bad apples, whether it be DCs, MDs, or nurses is very unfair. Lastly, what DCs are trained in is the diagnosis and treatment of neuromuscalar injuries. In addition, we have extensive training in nutritional therapies, rehab and physiotherapy, and sports and industrial injuries. So I am sorry that your bad experience with 2 DCs out of the tens of thousands of us has led you to believe that all of us are like the 2 you went to.

In response to your questions about Chiopractic education, our programs are 3.5 or 4 year programs which include an internship in the last year of school. You are correct that the requirements for entrance are less strict than for medical school. However, each year these requirements are increasing and there is more competition for space. There is no requirement for "marketing" new patients for graduating. The National Board requirements set minimum numbers of patients that each candidate must examine, and minimum numbers of manipulations, and minumum numbers of treatment modalities. Once these requirements are met, the intern can then go on rotations or have an externship in a chiropractor's office. Some do in fact do rounds or internships in hospitals. However, this is a very small number as the need for chiropractors in that setting is very small and the desire to be in that setting is small on the part of most chiropractors. Today's DCs are trained in diagnosis and treatment planing and can give medical advice regarding a patient's condition. We cannot do anything regarding medication because that is not part of our curriculum. Instead, our curriculum focuses on natural treatments and non-invasive procedures. Additionally, you cannot get licensed until you pass a National Board exam that tests your competency. Some states require an additional state board, while others require a certain score on the National test. So you were greatly misinformed on this part of your statement. The tests you mentioned that you thought were bogus are surface EMG and also thermography. It sounds to me like you were in an office where they were poorly explained and poorly performed. These tests do have some diagnostic validity as a screening test to generally illustrate where there is a problem. The more thorough test you talk about MDs doing is the needle EMG, which does have more validity and specificity, but is also a painful and expensive test. To be a chiropractic neurologist is much more than just a few weekend courses, and at the end the DC is NOT a neurologist. He or she is simply a DC that has completed additional training and certification in neurology. That's all. As for your outcome with surgery, I'm glad to hear it was great. You have beaten the odds. Statisticallly, some back surgery failure rates are near 90% after 1 year. I'm also sorry to hear about your mom. Metastatic cancer of the spine is very rapid and can disguise itself as a regular injury. Realistically, that is a diagnosis that can easily be missed until it is too late. Even had he caught it one the first visit, there is very little that can be done at that point. My cousin died of the same thing, and he was going to DCs and MDs for back pain. He had xrays taken and it didn't show up. By the time it was large enough to be seen on xray, it was too late. Once again, I'm sorry for your loss. You are correct that manipulation is not a cure all. Sadly, there are some charlatans in my profession that try to make it look like this. So subscribe to almost a "religion" of chiropractic beliefs. Most of us do not follow those ideas, but the problem is that some of the most vocal and gregarious DCs are the ones who run high volume cure all mills. That is not what most of our profession is like. So the important thing is to go to a good DC, just like you would go to a good MD, and get a second opinion when you are in doubt. Remember, the MD that you see may be someone who went to med school out of the country and who got in with the kind of grades you mention for chiropractic school. All he has to do then is to pass the state licensing boards and he can practice medicine. And communication skills are NOT part of the curriculum anywhere. The biggest complaint people have about the doctors is their lack of personality and lack of communication skills, so I have no idea where you get the thought that only people with solid communication skills become MDs or nurses. So be sure you interview your DC or MD well before you hire them, and if you think that one is a quack, try a different one. And you are putting medical and nursing programs on way to high a pedastal saying they only take the cream of the crop. Remember, there are always programs out there in nursing and medicine that will take people whose qualifications are sketchy. But to discredit a whole profession for the few bad apples, whether it be DCs, MDs, or nurses is very unfair. Lastly, what DCs are trained in is the diagnosis and treatment of neuromuscalar injuries. In addition, we have extensive training in nutritional therapies, rehab and physiotherapy, and sports and industrial injuries. So I am sorry that your bad experience with 2 DCs out of the tens of thousands of us has led you to believe that all of us are like the 2 you went to.

In response to your questions about Chiopractic education, our programs are 3.5 or 4 year programs which include an internship in the last year of school. You are correct that the requirements for entrance are less strict than for medical school. However, each year these requirements are increasing and there is more competition for space. There is no requirement for "marketing" new patients for graduating. The National Board requirements set minimum numbers of patients that each candidate must examine, and minimum numbers of manipulations, and minumum numbers of treatment modalities. Once these requirements are met, the intern can then go on rotations or have an externship in a chiropractor's office. Some do in fact do rounds or internships in hospitals. However, this is a very small number as the need for chiropractors in that setting is very small and the desire to be in that setting is small on the part of most chiropractors. Today's DCs are trained in diagnosis and treatment planing and can give medical advice regarding a patient's condition. We cannot do anything regarding medication because that is not part of our curriculum. Instead, our curriculum focuses on natural treatments and non-invasive procedures. Additionally, you cannot get licensed until you pass a National Board exam that tests your competency. Some states require an additional state board, while others require a certain score on the National test. So you were greatly misinformed on this part of your statement. The tests you mentioned that you thought were bogus are surface EMG and also thermography. It sounds to me like you were in an office where they were poorly explained and poorly performed. These tests do have some diagnostic validity as a screening test to generally illustrate where there is a problem. The more thorough test you talk about MDs doing is the needle EMG, which does have more validity and specificity, but is also a painful and expensive test. To be a chiropractic neurologist is much more than just a few weekend courses, and at the end the DC is NOT a neurologist. He or she is simply a DC that has completed additional training and certification in neurology. That's all. As for your outcome with surgery, I'm glad to hear it was great. You have beaten the odds. Statisticallly, some back surgery failure rates are near 90% after 1 year. I'm also sorry to hear about your mom. Metastatic cancer of the spine is very rapid and can disguise itself as a regular injury. Realistically, that is a diagnosis that can easily be missed until it is too late. Even had he caught it one the first visit, there is very little that can be done at that point. My cousin died of the same thing, and he was going to DCs and MDs for back pain. He had xrays taken and it didn't show up. By the time it was large enough to be seen on xray, it was too late. Once again, I'm sorry for your loss. You are correct that manipulation is not a cure all. Sadly, there are some charlatans in my profession that try to make it look like this. So subscribe to almost a "religion" of chiropractic beliefs. Most of us do not follow those ideas, but the problem is that some of the most vocal and gregarious DCs are the ones who run high volume cure all mills. That is not what most of our profession is like. So the important thing is to go to a good DC, just like you would go to a good MD, and get a second opinion when you are in doubt. Remember, the MD that you see may be someone who went to med school out of the country and who got in with the kind of grades you mention for chiropractic school. All he has to do then is to pass the state licensing boards and he can practice medicine. And communication skills are NOT part of the curriculum anywhere. The biggest complaint people have about the doctors is their lack of personality and lack of communication skills, so I have no idea where you get the thought that only people with solid communication skills become MDs or nurses. So be sure you interview your DC or MD well before you hire them, and if you think that one is a quack, try a different one. And you are putting medical and nursing programs on way to high a pedastal saying they only take the cream of the crop. Remember, there are always programs out there in nursing and medicine that will take people whose qualifications are sketchy. But to discredit a whole profession for the few bad apples, whether it be DCs, MDs, or nurses is very unfair. Lastly, what DCs are trained in is the diagnosis and treatment of neuromuscalar injuries. In addition, we have extensive training in nutritional therapies, rehab and physiotherapy, and sports and industrial injuries. So I am sorry that your bad experience with 2 DCs out of the tens of thousands of us has led you to believe that all of us are like the 2 you went to.

In response to your questions about Chiopractic education, our programs are 3.5 or 4 year programs which include an internship in the last year of school. You are correct that the requirements for entrance are less strict than for medical school. However, each year these requirements are increasing and there is more competition for space. There is no requirement for "marketing" new patients for graduating. The National Board requirements set minimum numbers of patients that each candidate must examine, and minimum numbers of manipulations, and minumum numbers of treatment modalities. Once these requirements are met, the intern can then go on rotations or have an externship in a chiropractor's office. Some do in fact do rounds or internships in hospitals. However, this is a very small number as the need for chiropractors in that setting is very small and the desire to be in that setting is small on the part of most chiropractors. Today's DCs are trained in diagnosis and treatment planing and can give medical advice regarding a patient's condition. We cannot do anything regarding medication because that is not part of our curriculum. Instead, our curriculum focuses on natural treatments and non-invasive procedures. Additionally, you cannot get licensed until you pass a National Board exam that tests your competency. Some states require an additional state board, while others require a certain score on the National test. So you were greatly misinformed on this part of your statement. The tests you mentioned that you thought were bogus are surface EMG and also thermography. It sounds to me like you were in an office where they were poorly explained and poorly performed. These tests do have some diagnostic validity as a screening test to generally illustrate where there is a problem. The more thorough test you talk about MDs doing is the needle EMG, which does have more validity and specificity, but is also a painful and expensive test. To be a chiropractic neurologist is much more than just a few weekend courses, and at the end the DC is NOT a neurologist. He or she is simply a DC that has completed additional training and certification in neurology. That's all. As for your outcome with surgery, I'm glad to hear it was great. You have beaten the odds. Statisticallly, some back surgery failure rates are near 90% after 1 year. I'm also sorry to hear about your mom. Metastatic cancer of the spine is very rapid and can disguise itself as a regular injury. Realistically, that is a diagnosis that can easily be missed until it is too late. Even had he caught it one the first visit, there is very little that can be done at that point. My cousin died of the same thing, and he was going to DCs and MDs for back pain. He had xrays taken and it didn't show up. By the time it was large enough to be seen on xray, it was too late. Once again, I'm sorry for your loss. You are correct that manipulation is not a cure all. Sadly, there are some charlatans in my profession that try to make it look like this. So subscribe to almost a "religion" of chiropractic beliefs. Most of us do not follow those ideas, but the problem is that some of the most vocal and gregarious DCs are the ones who run high volume cure all mills. That is not what most of our profession is like. So the important thing is to go to a good DC, just like you would go to a good MD, and get a second opinion when you are in doubt. Remember, the MD that you see may be someone who went to med school out of the country and who got in with the kind of grades you mention for chiropractic school. All he has to do then is to pass the state licensing boards and he can practice medicine. And communication skills are NOT part of the curriculum anywhere. The biggest complaint people have about the doctors is their lack of personality and lack of communication skills, so I have no idea where you get the thought that only people with solid communication skills become MDs or nurses. So be sure you interview your DC or MD well before you hire them, and if you think that one is a quack, try a different one. And you are putting medical and nursing programs on way to high a pedastal saying they only take the cream of the crop. Remember, there are always programs out there in nursing and medicine that will take people whose qualifications are sketchy. But to discredit a whole profession for the few bad apples, whether it be DCs, MDs, or nurses is very unfair. Lastly, what DCs are trained in is the diagnosis and treatment of neuromuscalar injuries. In addition, we have extensive training in nutritional therapies, rehab and physiotherapy, and sports and industrial injuries. So I am sorry that your bad experience with 2 DCs out of the tens of thousands of us has led you to believe that all of us are like the 2 you went to.

that people have experienced with Chiropractors, there are 10 great stories that people have experienced. Kristian mentioned people that were going to get back surgery, went through a test run of adjustments and Physiotherapy, and the person got better and did not need the surgery. He was also humble enough to say there were times chiropractic did not work and the patient was refered to a specialist. I have seen more positive experiences than negative. For those that had a very bad experience with a Quack, sorry for them, move on and give the best revenge by living well. For those that just hate Chiropractors, then don't go to one. For people like Karlton, you are on a serious high-horse and need to step down from your self-love.

I really dont know what chiropractors are taught in school, but I feel confident in saying that chiropractors are NOT qualified to give medical advice. I can give you several examples of my own experiences and observations. Let me preface my comments first. I have several close friends that are chiropractors - I dont like talking with them about their trade. That would surely ruin a friendship. we stick to thing like beer and football. My mother went to see a chiropractor for neck pain. She was told she had a slipped disc. She was given spinal manipulations and a lot of tests that really seem bogus to me. For instance, measuring the temperature of her back over each disk - showed a pinched nerve? Seems bogus. She had another nerve test - an EMG. I had a ruptured disk that compressed my spinal cord a number of years ago. I had an EMG and the person doing it seemed more professional than what mom described. I think mine was done by a neurologist - (an MD in any case). One of my chiropractor friends is a chiropractic neurologist. I remember that he went to a few weekend classes and voila - he's a neurologist. I believe the MDs need more like a few years - full time -after med school to be a neurologist. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Well, thats not my point, my moms EMG was done in her chiropractors office by a girl that, according to my mom, was a giggly teenager who didn't seem to have a clue what she was doing. She used a probe of some kind that she ran up and down moms back a few times which took about 2 or 3 minutes ? she was told that it showed nerve damage - seems bogus and was very expensive too. With my EMG, the MD took an hour or two to do the test, thats right, the MD did it herself and it was much different. I got stuck with what seemed to be a gazillion big needles - actually it was probably about a dozen. Then the other part hurt like hell too. It involved jolts of electricity. Afterward, she went over the printed report with the actual tracings of the electrical responses and she explained how she concluded that it confirmed my MRI. The next thing I knew, I was in surgery for a fusion and eventually had a great outcome. My moms was all done on her back. She did not have it explained other than the girl telling her how bad her neck and back were and she needed a lot of their treatment if she was to avoid surgery - bla bla bla. He was convincing, at least to her. Well a month or so later she couldn't walk. My sister took her to the hospital by where she stayed a few month until she died of metastatic spinal cancer. I felt like paying the big shot test running neck popping overcharging quack a visit to put him in the ground too. I didn't of course. But I did talk to a lawyer. Nothing came of that. My point is, just because popping your neck may feel good, it's not medical treatment. No one will ever convince me that popping the spine is a cure-all. If mom's chiropractor had the training and experience of a medical doctor - he should have recognized, at some point during his treatments, that he was in way over his head. It took the hospital about one day to tell us that mom had terminal metastatic cancer that had essentially obliterated her upper two neck vertebrae. The lawyer told use that it would be hard to prove that she would have survived had she seen a medical doctor first. I dont know - maybe, maybe not. In any case, nothing will bring her back. All the money in the world could not make up for the suffering hell she went through. All I can say is - get a medical doctor to diagnose and treat illness. If you want a chiropractor to pop your spine to relieve some soreness and you have seen a medical doctor to rule out anything more serious ? go for it. One more thing, the friends I have that are chiropractors went to school in Texas and got into chiropractic school with GPAs in the 2.5 - 2.75 range. Those grades would never get you into med school or nursing school. For chiropractic you pay the tuition and you're in. Doctors and nurses go through an application and interview process that weeds out the people that do not belong. They pick the best - say goodbye to the rest. Their fields are built on a foundation of evidence based practice. If you don't have solid communication skills and the ability demonstrate at least a modicum of logical activity between the ears, you're outta there because there's many more better qualified people applying. according to them, a large part of there training (later in the program) was to recruit patients to come to the school for treatment, which they paid something for. they completed the program after they recruited a certain number of patients - as opposed to attaining some level of measurable competency. That sound's more like a marketing class. Furthermore, their internships are not performed in medical centers. Maybe the patient recruitment quota was their internship???? If you don't believe me, call a hospital and ask how many chiropractors have privileges there. The stuff they teach and practice is not the same. Dont get me wrong, chiropractors can effectively treat some musculoskeletal conditions using some techniques - namely chiropractic techniques. unfortunately, the chiropractors who represent themselves as, or equivalent to, a medical doctor are exposing their patients to an unacceptable risk of harm. It seems that there is a growing trend in the chiropractic field to practice everything but what they are trained prepared them for - chiropractic. Listen folks, chiropractors don't do brain surgery. How many babies do they deliver in their internship? What is there approach to treating burns? or ulcers? or STDs, how about the flu?, diarrhea?" ingrown toenail? a cough? ear infection? remove a cyst? runny nose? set a broken arm? lance a boil on the butt? how many people do they see that are teetering on the verge of death from a trauma or disease? How many codes have they ran. Do I need to go on? A medical doctor can, will, and probably has, done all the above. A chiropractor can't even give you an antibiotic or a blood pressure med. They can't prescribe any drugs. That reminds me, let me tell you about my experience with chiropractic. When I was a high school student in Little Rock, I went to the neighborhood chiropractic clinic after I hurt my back. The clinic was called "Felix Chiropractic" and it was on Baseline Road. Felix is the guy's first name. His last name was something like something like Canatella or Canella. If my memory serves me right, he was the president of the local chiropractic association. Well, he was cheap, - 20 bucks cash. He popped my back, it felt OK, but afterward, he had me lay on the table and he put a small object in my hand. I didn't know what it was but he had me lift a leg up and he easily pushed it back to the table. It didn't take much pressure - I was really hurting. Next, he removed the object and put something else in my hand and again he pushed down on my leg. This time, he said he was pushing hard and I was able to hold my leg up, but I could tell he wasn't. Here's the rub, afterward, he showed me what I had in my hand on the first try, I think it was a marble. Then he had me open my hand to reveal a vitamin. According to him, this test proved that I had a vitamin deficiency. Just holding the vitamin gave me strength. So you can guess what comes next. He wants to sell me the expensive vitamins. I couldn't get out of there fast enough. I didn't buy the vitamins and I never went back. If he would have just popped my back, I probably would have gone back, but that vitamin hocus pocus crap was 110% unbelievable even to this country boy. I have been a skeptic ever since. I know my story probably sounds crazy and is hard to believe. That's why I disclosed the name of the clinic - to give this story credibility. I won't mention my mom's chiropractor's name. I my story opens some eyes and helps to people understand that not all doctors medical doctors. A PhD in sociology doesn't someone a medical doctor and a medical degree doesn't make a person a sociologist. A chiropractor is to medicine what a house painter is to Picasso. Chiropractors, in my opinion, will gain more respect and acceptance by the conventional medical community and the public by concentrating on the advancement of the chiropractic profession rather than trying to convince everyone they the equivalent of something they are not trained for.

Second contributor, Alan - Saint Paul, Minnesota Quote: "It is people like this Svastis guy that gives the good chiropractors a bad name". . I couldn't agree more, Steve! Both of them suffer from all this bad publicity. And don't think the two of them don't regret it! Honestly, though, one guy is a whole lot more talented than his colleague. . Just my take on a couple of thoughts: [1]Podiatrists work on feet as that's as close to vital organs as they dare get. [2]Chiropractors, thankfully, can't write prescriptions. Niether can truck drivers. Or burger flippers. Sort of some kind of comparative issue there.

I don't have alot of the knowledge about the subject that some of you do, but I do have my own story. I was in a car wreck in August of 2004, I visited "Dr" Craig Gibson, DC in Waynesville, NC. He did x-rays said I had whip lash and that he could restore the shape of my neck and have me pain free in a few weeks. So I signed my life away on all his papers and started treatment, the pain got worse and worse and he just kept saying it would take more and more treatment. Well, I went from August until December, several times a week, and hurt worse after all the treatments than I did before. Not only that, he charged the insurance company $80.00 a pop for 30 minutes of massage, for $80.00 in my town you can get a 2 hour pampering at a spa with a 1 hour massage. This was my last experience with a DC, this was to the tune of $3000.00. Would you believe that some idoits take new born babies to these quacks?

And I quote, "This is a private nonprofit University that uses false advertising in admissions materials. It lost accreditation in 2002 for not meeting accreditation standards but regained it after suing the accreditor. It promotes quackery and writes false and misleading statements in admissions literature. It is one of many violators listed on http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/webclaims.html. There is also a problem that the school does not permit students to order diagnostic tests on patients which are necessary to learn to diagnose patients-leading to unsatisfactory instruction in diagnosis. They promote quackery and overutilization.

Here is an answer Karlton, anyone knows that these individuals were busted because that individual has a problem. You are ignorant if you really believe that no "real doctors" get busted for prostitution or any other crime. Judging from your track record on bogus, biased info, I am sure you made up those "statistics" as well, or only read part of the story, or just plain lacked the reading comprehension to understand what the story meant. Again, most of those "brothels" that you talk about are actually run by organized crime, many times by russian or south american syndicates. Most are not even owned or run by chiropractors, and the name chiropractic is used as a front, or they will use Acupuncture or accupressure as a front as well. Why do they use this as a front? Because there are more city regulations for business licenses on "massage parlors" as well as zoning issues and health department that are not in place for medical offices. So, criminals know how to get around the system with the least resistance, and therefore put the word chiro or accu in the name to make it fly under the radar for a time. Try reading the whole story when and if you actually pick up a paper. Maybe then you might really understand what it is talking about and you won't jump to conclusions that really make you look mentally impaired. Case in point, just look at your own long quote about Dr Athens and the SF 49ers. Please, please, keep posting that on all the other places you go to spread hate, because that really gives us great publicity, even though you cannot understand this and somehow think it makes us look bad.

I read that two ChiroQuacks were picked up in Long Beach for running w***e houses yesterday. Just checked today there have been 22 chiroquacks in the last two years in LONG BEACH picked up for sex crimes. Thats almost one a month. Funny no real doctors were accused. I wonder why? Can you tell us why so many chiroquacks are picked up each year for prostitution?

I read that two ChiroQuacks were picked up in Long Beach for running w***e houses yesterday. Just checked today there have been 22 chiroquacks in the last two years in LONG BEACH picked up for sex crimes. Thats almost one a month. Funny no real doctors were accused. I wonder why? Can you tell us why so many chiroquacks are picked up each year for prostitution?

I read that two ChiroQuacks were picked up in Long Beach for running w***e houses yesterday. Just checked today there have been 22 chiroquacks in the last two years in LONG BEACH picked up for sex crimes. Thats almost one a month. Funny no real doctors were accused. I wonder why? Can you tell us why so many chiroquacks are picked up each year for prostitution?

I read that two ChiroQuacks were picked up in Long Beach for running w***e houses yesterday. Just checked today there have been 22 chiroquacks in the last two years in LONG BEACH picked up for sex crimes. Thats almost one a month. Funny no real doctors were accused. I wonder why? Can you tell us why so many chiroquacks are picked up each year for prostitution?

Karlton, there is no spin going on, except on your side. For example, when you try to ridicule the studies I quoted because you said they were only 2 sentences long, do you realize you were only reading the abstract? Additionally, Spine is NOT a chiropractic journal, it is a medical journal, despite your mockery. As for your logic on cell phones, or as you call it RF, here is an analogy for you to consider to see that your logic is flawed: Lasers can be used to correct myopia, yet at the same time laser exposure to the eye can cause blindness. So something that can heal in one instance, as your RF on tumors, can also do damage in another. Studies are inconclusive on this so far, but I would rather not take the risk and simply prevent any problems by using a hands free device. Additionally, there are studies with school children in Florida regarding exposure to high power electric lines. This analysis of data was performed because there was an abnormally high rate of cancers like leukemia in school children whose schools had these high tension power lines overhead. It is a valid question that Patrick brings up, and one worth really thinking about and looking at both sides.

Patrick you said, "I was smart enough to take the necessary action to gain a refund as soon as possible after discovering that this company had misrepresented their services." You were not smart enough to see through their BS in the first place then and your not smart enough to see through chiroquacks now. As for RF and brain tumors there are devises that use concentrated RF to DE BULK tumors search for Orion 1 EMF or w w w . orionemf . c o m and read how RF can TAKE out tumors as for your cell phone call your DC talk awhile. Lets see what pops up! NOW to be ON point to the TOPIC here NEITHER QUACK should have taken this poor saps money!

LOL You also say "There is nothing in Chiroquack that does a thing for REAL lasting RELIEF that any Psychical Therapy will not achieve for less. Again, we have 4 years of training in performing spinal manipulation. Only manipulation you can do that has a lasting effect is the financial drain you place on the system. But Best READ what I posted and not TWIST it oh Great SPIN master! How about those EXAUSTIVE studies you tout you know the two liners. LOL! How many chiros are there in Long Beach? Answer 6 less then there was last month!

Kristian, Thank you for providing the answers to Karlton's questions. Even though I have told him in the past that I have no experience with DCs, PTs and such, that I am not qualified to comment on what they can and can't do. But for some reason, he still asks me those questions. Here's a good one for you. I saw a report on the news last night talking about the effects of prolonged cell phone usage. There were two neurosurgeons questioned, one in LA and one in Phoenix. The one in LA says there is scientific evidence that extended cell phone use (with the phone being held to the head) contributes to an increase in brain tumors due to microwaves. The one in Phoenix says there is no such evidence to support this theory. Hey, one of them must be a quack, eh?

I cannot believe that you can continue to ridicule other people who have been taken advantage of. You completely misunderstand the purpose of this site, which is to do what Patrick has done and warn others before they get scammed. Furthermore, you write and think more like a teenager than the adult with 40 years of experience that you claim to have. Nevertheless, here is the answer to your question as to what a DC can do that "a real doctor or Psychical Therapy can't do?" DCs can perform spinal manipulation, which is something that a physical therapist cannot under their license. They can perform mobilization, but not manipulation. However, they are fighting to get this added to their scope of practice because many now realize that it is actually an effective tool to improve range of motion and function and to decrease pain. MDs can perform manipulation under their license, as can osteopaths. We share many techniques in common with osteopaths and physical therapists. You also say "There is nothing in Chiroquack that does a thing for REAL lasting RELIEF that any Psychical Therapy will not achieve for less. Again, we have 4 years of training in performing spinal manipulation. Additionally, you really show your ignorance when you say that they can achieve the same result for less. First of all, your statement is contrary to many studies that have shown that DC treatment of many conditions is actually less expensive than traditional treatment and results in higher patient satisfaction. Second, insurance companies pay the same rates for procedures performed by PTs and DCs. An MD will get reimbursed at a higher rate, and so will a DO. Additionally, many plans have unlimited PT visits, and some will reimburse over $100 per visit, while they will only reimburse $25 for chiro treatment and will be a max of 12 to 24 visits. Please check your facts before you spout completely wrong data.

Well Karlton, I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree. I think some DCs do good work for people, you think they are all quacks. Now that that is settled, let's just move on with our lives, shall we? Oh, and by the way. For the very last time, I will tell you that we were ripped off due to FALSE ADVERTISING and MISLEADING VERBAL STATEMENTS, both of which are illegal. I am not a "fool" or a "weak thinker". I was smart enough to take the necessary action to gain a refund as soon as possible after discovering that this company had misrepresented their services. There are hundreds and hundreds of other parents who have also fallen victim to this scam artist. Through my efforts, some of them have also gotten their money back. But sadly, most have not, as they do not have the determination I had regarding this. But more importantly, my actions prevented dozens of others from being ripped off also.

Well "First, again, you know nothing of the reason why we took our daughter to the audition, so you cannot comment on that matter." I can comment as you WERE TAKEN AS THE FOOL who paid and had to get help getting your money back here in this forum. YOU are a WEAK thinker just as you are on Chiroquacks. You are talking out your arse here. There is nothing in Chiroquack that does a thing for REAL lasting RELIEF that any Psychical Therapy will not achieve for less. The CONSUMER is KING here on Rip Off Report. Not those who will con them or help the con go on as you are. Here answer me this what can chiro do that a real doctor or Psychical Therapy can't do? Why do we need people running around calling each other Doctor when they are really Doctors of CONS?

Karlton, First, again, you know nothing of the reason why we took our daughter to the audition, so you cannot comment on that matter. I can guarantee you I am wide awake, and not under some kind of "spell". I did research the company before signing a contract. Unfortunately, it did not go further than the BBB (oh if I had only known about ROR back then!). Since they had a clean record, I thought they could be trusted. Turns out I was wrong. Fortunately for me, I got my money back in full. Next, I am not defending all DCs. The ONLY reason I have posted here is the fact that it is ludicrous to say "all DCs are quacks because they run around in lab coats and call themselves doctors". You just can't admit that that statement is false. Are there quack DCs? Yes. Are there quack MDs? Yes. Are there neurosurgeons out there who should not be practicing? YES! (there has to be at least 1). Why can't you admit that there are at least some DCs out there that are not quacks. Some actually do help patients with pain management. Who cares whether or not they can "cure" anything. If patients are experiencing pain relief, shouldn't that count for something? I agree that the DCs that are saying they can cure you forever of your pain should be run out of business, right along with the ones that jack your insurance for as much as they can get, even if the treatments are unnecessary. But again, NOT ALL DCs ARE LIKE THIS. Again, I'm not here to defend DCs (or anyone else for that matter). I am simply pointing out the flaw in your statement.

The only insane thing here Patrick is people like you are fooled by QUACKS and you are defending them! You said, "But your whole argument has boiled down to "All DCs are quacks because they call themselves doctors, and have the title of doctor in their name". Not true at all but then your easy prey how much were you taken for before thinking your child "had it" then you woke up? Wake up now Patrick!

Sherri, Please don't sit there and tell us you have the same scope of pratice as an M.D.. M.D.s can have there own offices and work alone if they choose to do so (you my friend CAN'T), they don't have to have a medical doctor check over each and every chart and sign off on them as you do. It was also my understand that nurses used nursing diagnosises and not medical diagnosises. Example, alteration of comfort, alteration of nutrition, ect. I think a P.A. or N.P. without supervision by and M.D would be a malpractice case waiting to happen unless you are just treating kids with runny noses.I am at this time seeing a N.P on a regular bases and I have found the female N.P. to be very good at what she does and is more intune with the patients then most docots. But that still doesn't mean I would stop seeing my cardiologist just because she is able to write scripts for my 9 heart medications. I agree that this debate has gone way off base from the original issue. Karlton still hates Chiroprators and I don't think we will be able to change his mind. I think Kristian should invite Karlton to his office for a free exam and treatment to show him he's not playing M.D. and is just offering a useful service to the public.Maybe Kristian could adjust Karlton head back on correctly so he can think straight. LOL.

Yes Karlton, the spirit of ROR is to inform consumers of rip offs, and shady businesses. But your whole argument has boiled down to "All DCs are quacks because they call themselves doctors, and have the title of doctor in their name". I am not baiting for a debate. I am providing comments to your insane rants. OK, let's try a different approach and look at dentists. They have "doctor" in their title too (Doctor of Dental Science, DDS). So let's use your logic. Do they cure diseases? No (and gingivitis does not count. They only change the conditions that prevent the disease from occurring). Do they relieve pain? Yes. Do they "cure" bad teeth (as in bring them back to original condition)? No. They do not cure anything, they only correct problems. So, using the logic you have applied to DCs, all dentists should be considered quacks because they have the title doctor in their name. Do you agree? Is it getting through yet? Are you starting to see how your generalizing comments are incorrect? Steve did, and he was man enough to admit it here. You would think that the son of a neurosurgeon would be able to figure it out. I initially found Steve's comments about the possible actions of a DC in your past to be way off base. But now, I'm starting to change my mind. You seem to have a deep rooted hatred for DCs. Why is that? Please give us the reason why you hate them so much. And I don't want to hear the old "because they call themselves doctors" line again. Give us something tangible. Sherri, I agree with your last comment. However, I feel that if Karlton is going to come onto ROR and post comments as a consumer advocate, then he needs to qualify the statements he makes. By coming on this report and calling all DCs "quacks" is IMHO detrimental to the integrity of this site. At least when I post comments, they are based on my personal experience and knowledge of the subject. There are, of course, the few exceptions (Postal for example. Loved your comments there by the way).

Yes, as a Nurse Practitioner, I DO work under an MD..just as all of the MDs work under another MD, known as the "Chief." Do you think that doctors don't ask an opinion of another doctor if he/she is unsure of a diagnosis or another doctor may have more experience/expertise in the suspected condition? This is called a "consultation." Actually, when ordering tests, I use common sense and am known for being conservative in my approach. No, I'm not going to order a spinal tap for flu-like symptoms (unless there are other risk factors) and I don't order a MRI for a stubbed pinkie toe, so please don't pretend that you have any idea about how I do things. Again, what you don't seem to understand is that I don't have to answer to insurance companies as we seldom deal with outside insurance. If the Chief feels that I ordered something that was not appropriate, I will hear about it..as do the physicians and PAs. Personally, I think this forum has gone from a possibly valid concern to being a pissing contest.

"Do not hate the sinner hate the sin." The SIN of DC is the D part. Why is a M.D. and or a D.O. respected and can sit for medical boards yet a D.C. cant if they are ALL Doctors? LOL Why because a DC is only a Doctor of QUACKERY! Patrick you only are baiting for a debate for debate sake. You have lost focus of what Rip Off report is about. It is about helping CONSUMERS know who they can trust and not trust. Can a quack give you a nice warm back rub and crack a joint or two to "make you feel better"? Yes. Are they Doctors? NO! Patrick answer me this why don't you see spinal surgeons sending people to Chiros if they are so good? I do not know of any spinal surgeons who will not try every medical relief before surgery. Not one ever. Yet I do not know of one spinal surgeon who refers out to chiroquacks? Why is that? Because its QUACKERY! Our good friend from Long Beach may chime in here and let us know of the surgeons he works with. Oh by the way I know all of them down there in Long Beach even the Spinal Surgeon who is also a police officer. Yup a Surgeon and Motorcycle Cop, great guy! So please let us know how many and who you work with oh great healer who can not heal.

Karlton, My family physician has an office right down the street from me. She wears a lab coat. She does not have a lab in her office. Yes, she can write scripts, so what? What's the difference? Lab coats are a tradition in the medical profession, just as suits are for lawyers. If a lawyer entered court in a jogging outfit, would it make him any less capable than he is? It might get him a contempt charge, so he wears the suit. As I said, you are now grasping at straws to maintain an argument. Even Steve can see the flawed logic.

Given the current state of medicine today, that's asking a lot. I don't care what letters are behind your name. On the other hand, I feel that both orthopedic surgeons as well as qualified chiropractic physicians have something to offer that may be beneficial to the patient. Each within their own area of expertise. Consider this, if chiropractic treatments had absolutely no value, why in the hell would medical insurers pay for them? Insurance companies are some of the most tight-fisted businesses on the face of the earth when it comes to money. If they are handing away the money, they must see some positive results.

As long as they walk around in lab coats and call each other Doctor they are the ones who have the problems not I. By the way why do you wear a lab coats when you have no labs? You can not perscribe! LOL at QUACKS and those who defend them.

Karlton, I wish I could could help you overcome your hate of chiroprators. I myself have been enlightenment about chiropratic after reading all about this subject.I understand that most of them claim to be able to do more than they can but we must remember it not all of them. So instead of us waring with chiroprators in general it would be better to expose the ones that are true quacks. Kristian has done nothing wrong as a chiroprator as far as we know so to sit here and attack him for what other chiroquacks did is wrong and I an sorry for my part of that. Everyone must be able to choice there own form of treatment and if chiro works for some people then great. Even if the treatment only help in a psychosomatic way thats still good. I will be praying for you that you will be able to get over all your hate about chiropratic. I still have a bad feeling that maybe a chiropratic might have harmed you in some way. And I want you to know if one touched your "NO NO place", the blame and shame is on them and it's ok to tell on them my friend. Seriously those, theres enought hate and problems in this world to deal with without having to attack chiropratic. Karlton just give your issue to god and let him deal with it. The chiroquacks that are scamming the system will have to answer to god later on. "Venous is my sayith the Lord" Sherri, thats good your almost a doctor or should I say you are a doctor of nursing. I still prefer P.A.'s better. Most N.P's I have worked with seem to always had a problem with second guessing thier own dianosis and always odering way too many costly test because they are unsure if they got the dianosis and treatment correct. Maybe that the problem where you work? Are you ordering extra tests just to confirm your dianosis ? Even know this might make you feel better insurance company's don't like it and won't pay for it most of the time.WOW, Just the thing you complained about.Remember you have a M.D that is there to help you and that you work under so try consulting him on those difficult cases. Just because a patient might have most of the symptoms of meningitis does mean thats what the patient has, and to do a spinal tap based on just a guess is very costly, risky and painful.

Please point out where I have ever made a statement to that affect. The next paragraph you typed was nothing but babble. "If you were a REAL consumer advocate you would demand they stop hiding behind the peer bestowed title of Doctor." --> I do consider myself to be a Consumer Advocate. However, as I have pointed out above, I have no experience with DCs, so I cannot comment on those issues. "Stop baiting for a debate and learn the fraud that took place for the insurance money taken out of a system that needed the money for real healing! Over 10K in this case alone and neither of the QUACKs have yet to respond. Why because they know they were BOTH WRONG!" --> Again, are you using "divine powers" to know that this statement is true? You seem to have it in for DCs. Why, I don't know, nor do I really care. All I have ever done here was to try to dismiss the notion that all DCs are quacks. Plain and simple. Part 2 - "Aha! Steve finally gets it!" Steve finally understands what I have been posting about. His last 3 paragraphs say it all, but especially the last 1 1/2. Steve understands that not all DCs are quacks, or frauds, or are trying to rip off the insurance companies. Some are actually ethical doctors (yes Karlton, I said "doctors") who are truly trying to help the patients that they treat. Karlton, I really don't care what your personal opinions of DCs are, but as long as you continue to call them ALL quacks, I will continue to say that you can not qualify the statement of "all".

-->

Part 1 - "Debating facts with Karlton" Sorry Karlton, your reality check bounced due to insufficient evidence. Let me throw a few things out for you. I never sent an email to the EDitor to have you banned from this site. My only comment was that I would consider it, based on any future comments you made. Since you stopped bashing OPs for reporting about EZLaptop, and have made an effort to debate facts on other reports, I decided an email was not necessary. If you want, I can have the EDitor confirm that. I have zero experience with DCs. Therefore, I am not qualified to discuss how effective their treatments are, nor have I ever attempted to on this report. I am not defending all DCs. I am defending the notion that ALL DCs are quacks. That just simply is not true, as Kristian has pointed out. Regarding my RipOff Report, I was not trying to live off my daughter by getting her into modeling. You do not know me or my family, or our motivation for taking her, so you are not qualified to make such statements. Trust me, you do NOT want to go there. And for the record, we were mislead by false advertising and verbal promises, and that sir is against the law in this country. This website did not "wake me up" to the fact that I was being ripped off. I already knew that before discovering it. However, they assisted me in getting my money refunded. Thank you once again ED and Frank! A financial contribution will be forthcoming shortly, I promise. "Now you defend the same ilk because they have Doctor in there peer reviewed self bestowed title?" --> Please point out where I have ever made a statement to that affect. The next paragraph you typed was nothing but babble. "If you were a REAL consumer advocate you would demand they stop hiding behind the peer bestowed title of Doctor." --> I do consider myself to be a Consumer Advocate. However, as I have pointed out above, I have no experience with DCs, so I cannot comment on those issues. "Stop baiting for a debate and learn the fraud that took place for the insurance money taken out of a system that needed the money for real healing! Over 10K in this case alone and neither of the QUACKs have yet to respond. Why because they know they were BOTH WRONG!" --> Again, are you using "divine powers" to know that this statement is true? You seem to have it in for DCs. Why, I don't know, nor do I really care. All I have ever done here was to try to dismiss the notion that all DCs are quacks. Plain and simple. Part 2 - "Aha! Steve finally gets it!" Steve finally understands what I have been posting about. His last 3 paragraphs say it all, but especially the last 1 1/2. Steve understands that not all DCs are quacks, or frauds, or are trying to rip off the insurance companies. Some are actually ethical doctors (yes Karlton, I said "doctors") who are truly trying to help the patients that they treat. Karlton, I really don't care what your personal opinions of DCs are, but as long as you continue to call them ALL quacks, I will continue to say that you can not qualify the statement of "all".

Thank you for your support of my responses. I also appreciate you, Steve, for being willing to give things another chance and seeing that we aren't all like the guys Karlton portrays us to be. Obviously, there are still some docs who abuse the system, and some who still practice chiropractic like it is the religion of the Palmers. But that is not how all of us are. If anyone wants to see how far we have come, they should take the time to read Karlton's earlier post about Dr Athens and his work with the Superbowl champ 49ers. Thank you also Sherri for you support as well. I have seen what you are talking about for many hospitals and surgical centers with the work comp changes. Many have closed because they cannot meet their overhead. I also have friends who are orthopedic surgeons who are having the same problems. One of their biggest ones is that with all the work comp changes, they cannot get authorization or have long delays in getting it. I referred one patient that was not getting better after a 4 week trial of treatment for pain managment and surgical eval, and they are still waiting for a carrier response...and it has been 3 months! This is a case with SCIF. And lastly, this is where I thank Karlton. Posting those quotes from the 49ers helps show how the 47 men on that roster who must be in peak physical shape, shape that neither Karlton nor myself have ever been in, and peak physical performance can feel benefits from chiropractic. I appreciate your help with the testimonials. And I also thank you because as you have continued to post you have proven through your own writing that you are emotionally charged and not really into logic and reason. You are more suited for the Jerry Springer so you can shout and rant to avoid meaningful discussion. Hiding behind 'over 40 years of watching chiro...' does not prove a thing. Someone can watch TV for 40 years and still not know anything about acting. Someone could go to school for 40 years and still not be knowledgeable. And what is with the personal attack on Patrick? What kind of a person rubs salt in the wounds of another person? How long did it take you to look up his other posts so that you could attack him with it? One final note, as for Lance Armstrong and the cold laser, the company that he uses is the Erchonia laser out of Mesa Arizona, and they have a Lance Armstrong USPS special edition model. His personal chiro is with him right now on the Tour and he treats him after each days stages because Lance says it helps him recover faster. If you want the proof, go to their website at Erchonia.com. Once again, thank you to those of you who actually engaged in a real discussion. Best wishes.

We are the most profitable "non-profit" I have ever worked for with above-market pay and benefits (including having 100% of medical and dental paid for myself, my husband, as well as my 21-year-old stepdaughter) with nothing out-of-pocket except $5 prescription copays on prescriptions (chiropractic it not covered), not to mention a 10% copay on dental. We don't get layoff notices..we get bonus checks once a year, as well as 4.5% pay increase (goes down to cost-of-living increase after salary cap). So, where did I say we don't get paid? We don't have to deal with outside insurance companies other than in situations I previously stated. We're doing just fine, thank you. If they are uninsured/indigent, we only treat until they are stable and off they go to Highland (or John George if psych), so we don't have tons of charge-offs. Another way we minimize costs is that if one of our members comes into ER and it is not really an emergency, they are sent to Urgent Care (unless it is after-hours). As for Medi-Cal, I did not say EVERYTHING requires a TAR, but I know that it is not just long-term meds or treatment...when I worked for Sutter, we damned near lost patients while awaiting approval for surgery. I'm glad that we don't have to deal with them on a regular basis, as we only take Medi-Cal patients emergently. They seem to be a little quicker than they used to be, but that is not saying very much. As a clinician (Nurse Practitioner in a post-doctoral fellowship), I know the hoops we have to jump through to get things approved..I'm glad I don't have to deal with the billing/collections aspect. I don't understand your anger towards chiro...again, what is good for some is not good for all. Why all the personal attacks?

sherri, i think I know why the hospital you work for isn't getting paid.You don't know what your doing when it comes to billing. You stated that med- I-cal requires a TAR for everything, what a joke, this is so untrue. A TAR is only required when the the doctor orders a medication or procedure that is more expensive than a cheaper one that can be used to do the same thig. The insurance might want a TAR to know why to doctor wants to patient to have a angiogram before the patient has had a ultrasound of the heart. As the U.S is much cheaper and can show alot of the same things. RX's for example, a doctor might write a script for paxil which might cost $300 a month and the insurance might ask for a TAR becuase they know prozac which is a very siminar medication will cost 1/10 of the paxil. There has to be some valid reasons for these tests, exams, and medications. Just becuase they come to your hospital doesn't give you guys a blank check to due whatever you want to do. The most costly way is not always the best. Speaking if new drug, why is it that docots are so willing to hand out rx's left and right for new ,more costly medications when they know of older, cheaper medicines with proven track records. I will tell you, Gifts, and money. The drug reps come into the office and butter the doctors up into using the new medication by offering them such things as free golf trips, all sorts of gifts and even money. So i's not only the chiro that are milking the system. I really believe after reading everything kristian had written that he'is truely a good person and one of the few good chiros out there. He's taken the time to answers all my questions and had been nice about it, and I thank him for that. I think if more chiropractors acted like him chiroprators would be thought of much better. I have decided to give chiro another try. I will call the former LACC tomorrow. I won't do any adjustment becuase my back has been fused L1-L5 and t1 t10. But since my insurance is willing to cover it why not get a nice rub down twice a week and some heat treatments. You all know it feels nice and it can't hurt. Good luck to you all.

Patrick I am about to pin your ears back. It is not personal it is for the consumer. VIVA La Rip OFF Report! Buckle your seat belt because I am about to take you on a harsh reality check here that you will not like. In fact I bet you email Ed to ask for me to be banned. Tough LOVE buddy! I have 43 years of experience on the topic of chiro, I doubt you can match that. Just like I do not debate you on Az police tatics, are you sure on your pro-chiro stance? You do not live here in this world I do! It is TRUE you were taken by a bunch of con men who blew sunshine up your arse about your child who you thought you were going to ride the gravy train off of. Harsh but true, if your child was that great they would have placed him or her in real jobs. You spent big bucks because you thought you were going to take a big money ride off your child. THANK GOD Ed and Rip Off Report helped wake you up and helped you get your money back from the con people who yanked your chain BIG time! YOU were a FOOL! Now you defend the same ilk because they have Doctor in there peer reviewed self bestowed title? You wanted what people who go to chiroquacks want. YOU wanted relief of your pain and the promise of a better future, yours was financial not physical pain . The promise of a better future for your entire family was at stake. No matter if it was only temporary. YOU went in and went back for what? BECAUSE you THOUGHT they were going to palce your child = temp placation of the effect you were under! ALL QUACKS do is give temporary relief for the pain their clients feel. The con men / women keep them as your con people did to you on the hook until the coned wake up from the haze and realize they were taken! In this case by a "Doctor" con man / woman who only bilks the client until the money runs out. If you were a REAL consumer advocate you would demand they stop hiding behind the peer bestowed title of Doctor. I urge you to LEARN what ChiroQUACK is. Its Roots its philosophy and its tactics that keep it perpetrating the fraud of Chiroquactic. Like I said I have over 40 years of watching QUACKS fight over insurance or court case money. And you? Stop baiting for a debate and learn the fraud that took place for the insurance money taken out of a system that needed the money for real healing! Over 10K in this case alone and neither of the QUACKs have yet to respond. Why because they know they were BOTH WRONG!

The California Workers Compensation Appeals Board came out with a fee schedule that was a guide as to how much providers could bill the Work Comp carrier. However, like many other insurance carriers, they want to cut their costs and some basically hold the patient's care hostage by authorizing needed medical care IF the provider will take below Medicare rate for the same procedure. Have the Work Comp laws been abused in the past by providers (particularly attorney-referred clinics)? Absolutely. Do I think that it has gone a bit too far the other way? To a point, and not to the benefit of the injured workers. What is difficult for the providers is that the ACOEM guidelines keep changing with virtually no notice. The P&S guidelines have changed as well as the disability rating system. I think many of the attorney-referred clinics have gone under and even the legitimate Occupational Medicine providers are not getting rich...the payments are less, but the costs associated with running these facilities have not gone down. I usually work in the Emergency Department, but I also see patients two days a week in the industrial clinic. Do I refer patients to chiropractors? I have, as well as referring them for acupuncture (not a cure, but good in many cases for pain management). Not every modality is appropriate for every patient. If I am treating a patient with a suspected HNP, I wouldn't send him for a spinal manipulation. If the patient had a back strain and no evidence of radiculopathy, if the patient requested chiropractic, I would try and get it authorized (most carriers now will only authorize 4-6 visits initially as a trial instead of the "open-ended" visits. Patients don't come off an assembly line..what is good for one is not good for all.

Steve, Please scroll up a little and look at my last two comments to Karlton. And by the way, this report was submitted by a FORMER employee of the DC whose patients were stolen from them (he or she, we don't know). This former employee was simply trying to warn others about a SINGLE, unethical DC. Karlton, how do you know that both of these DCs ripped off clients. Do you possess some divine power that lets you know the thoughts of all those patients? Unless they place their own report here, nobody can say for sure. This deals strictly with the greed and unethical practice of ONE rip off DC. As I've said before, it was Steve and yourself that turned this into a DC quackfest. Gentlemen, please debate the original topic of this report, or stop posting. It's as simple as that. I'm curious as to whether or not the OP (that's "Original Poster" for you Karlton) continues to view this report.

The original issue here was two Chiroprator fighting over a gravy boat patient. I find it really sad how these two Doctors of Chiropratic are so willing to make thier profession look so cheap and shameful over one patient with lots of money or good insurance. Again a dollar amount is mentioned showing that it was never about wanting to help the patient but collecting that money from the patient and the insurance. Patients switch medical doctors all the time, but you don't see any M.D's on here crying they lost a patient to another M.D. down the street and crying about the exact amount they could have made off them. If the chiro who filed this report had any respect for his profession he wouldn't be airing his dirty on this web site. It is so important to these chiro to be called doctor and thought of as doctors but when it comes to someone taking one of there gravy boats patients these Chiroprator get on here and fight like little kids over a toy instead of Kristianacting like the Mature Doctors they want to be thought of. How can anyone respect a medical disciple that keeps embarrassing itself over and over. Instead of trying to convince the world your doctors by your words I think it's time your profession trys to convince us your doctors by their actions. Please don't sit in the pond quacking like a duck and then try to tell me your a swan and not a duck. if it walks, talks, and looks liike a duck, it's a duck.

Patrick you do not want to debate foaming at the mouth, you want foaming at the pocket book. Who cares if it was one or one thousand that made up the 10k. It was a RIP off from two con men.

Patrick you do not want to debate foaming at the mouth, you want foaming at the pocket book. Who cares if it was one or one thousand that made up the 10k. It was a RIP off from two con men.

Patrick you do not want to debate foaming at the mouth, you want foaming at the pocket book. Who cares if it was one or one thousand that made up the 10k. It was a RIP off from two con men.

Patrick you do not want to debate foaming at the mouth, you want foaming at the pocket book. Who cares if it was one or one thousand that made up the 10k. It was a RIP off from two con men.

Hey Karlton, Sorry, but I feel the need once again to point this out. This is from the first part of the original post: "When I was working for another chiropractor, Dr Svastis stole some of the other doctor's patients when they showed up at his office by mistake. He told these patients, who had been referred to our office initially by friends, that the doctor they were looking for was "not in right now, but Dr Svastis can see you." Did you get it that time? PatientS. Plural, as in more than ONE. This is not a report about how one DC stole a SINGLE patient from another DC and ripped them for $10K. This report is about a SINGLE DC who stole SEVERAL patients from another DC. I don't mind a good debate, but please get the facts straight before you go foaming at the mouth.

Sherri would you not agree that the workers comp law changes have driven out or under providers who have been bilking the system for years? As as such our system will be stronger with them gone, agree? Oh yes who has the highest rate of providers departing California? Do you agree or dis-agree with the premise that the report here is about two practitioners who are fighting over money neither should have? Consumers are RIPED OFF BY CHIROQUACKS EVERY DAY in California they need to change their ways and there names (drop the Doctor lable) or be driven out.

And I am sure you report every cent of it. LOL "Over 50% of my practice is cash." Okay say you are a rare breed of chiro who is not a scam, would you have an issue with dropping the Doctor part of your peer appointed title? And call yourself an alternative therapist? You may not have the insurance companies paying you but heck you are not in it for the "money". The title Dr. how much is that worth to your persona? Insurance money will dry up but they never pay on time nor the full amount anyway now do they? So if 50% of your walk in traffic pays CASH wow your golden no more bad baggage from the chiroquacks that make MAGIC bracelets, run w***e houses and all the other tricks of the chiro trade. Back to the Report here. Do you not agree that the two DR.s (LOL) riped off the system fighting over a befuddled patient? You would never do a thing like that now would you? WHOOPS you here defending the quacks that fight over people too stupid or befuddled to know which quack they are seeing at what time or what day in what office.

MediCal has a fee schedule that pays approximately 12.5 cents on the dollar compared to the Medicare fee schedule. Every little thing that a patient needs pretty much has to be approved (TAR), which can be a timely process. An insurance company can have a contract with hospitals and other healthcare providers to pay a certain fee for services, but it doesn't mean that they will pay it without kicking or screaming. Like when I worked at a "for-profit" medical center..so many patients relied on their insurance to pay a certain amount, only to get billed months later when the carrier failed to pay the contracted amount (if at all). Fortunately, I work for the state's largest HMO and the doctors make the decisions about care for their patients...not the insurance companies..we don't deal with them (other than Medicare and Medi-Cal in limited cases, as well as occasionally seeing critical patients who are non-members and transferring when stable).. Patients don't have hidden charges or unexpected bills. I think that HMOs were a great concept and they were well-intended..unfortunately, some like PacifiCare and the Blue Shield HMOs went awry and found it more profitable to cut corners at the expense of patient care. Worst deal for providers is when work comp carriers authorize care and diagnostics for their injured worker, yet, they don't pay or want to pay significantly less than fee schedule. Providers cannot bill a Work Comp patient for unpaid bills. That is why many Occupational Medicine providers don't take certain carriers any more. We stopped taking Gallagher-Bassett almost two years ago due to their failure to pay. I have been in the field for 23 years and have seen many changes..most, not for the good of the patient.

Kristian, That was one of the most well thought out and expressed rebuttals I have ever seen on this website. Most definitely the best on this post so far. Very well done indeed! Steve, you have posed some good questions before, and as stated, Kristian did a very good job aswering them. However, in your last post, it seems you are now reaching for straws. It is quite obvious that Kristian turned away the scammers as he did not want to participate in their scams. Doing so protects him from losing his license. Very admirable. He also stated he does not milk the patient's insurance. Isn't that enough for you? You talk about how he is able to quote stats off the top of his head. Maybe he didn't do that. Maybe he has been gathering the information over the last several days in order to create his last post. Or maybe he did. Some people (myself included) have an outstanding ability to memorize facts and figures. I work for a mainframe software company. We have thousands of clients all around the world. Some of them I deal with on a regular basis. I can quote account numbers, names, telephone numbers and email addresses off the top of my head. What's to say the same is not true for Kristian? Are you just trying to keep the argument going?

I have one last question for you Kristian. If your treatments are not mostly about the money than why is it that you are able to tell us the exact dollar amount how much insurance coverage your patients have for chiro care and how much the two patientS you mentioned had left when you finished their treatment. Seems kind of funny that you would know this off the top of your head if your patients weren't just dollar signs walking in your office door.Shouldn't you be more concerned with your patients medical treatment then their medical coverage? Lastly you mention that you have had a few fakers and scamers who you knew were playing the system. What I didn't hear from you is that you sent them away becuase you didn't want to take part in any scam, instead you say you sent them on there way because you don't want to risk your license. Again it's not about right or wrong but about you, about protecting number 1,and Protecting the gravy boat. Sherri, whats the deal with you, you don't have a clue what your talking about when it comes the med-I-cal or health insurance. In california Med-I-cal is now a HMO, it has been like that for over 7 years it's not a PPO any longer. Lastly it sounds to me like the hospital you work for must be over charging with those 100 dollar asprin and 25 dollar band aid. Each hospital has and agreement and a contract for set amount for good and services with EACH INSURANCE COMPANY.stay within that AND you they should pay you, overcharge them and get your bills kicked back to you.

First of all, regarding the unnecessary surgeries, it did happen and was written up in the Times and other papers. It was several years ago; I don't remember what year it was. Thankfully, the crooked doctors and marketers got busted. There were some surgical centers who got caught as well. And of course immigrants have PPO insurance. Just because they speak Spanish does not mean they can't get a PPO. Many have them paid for by their work. In this case however, the scam artists hooked the patient up with the insurance. Here is part of the reason why there are so many preauthorization steps in place now. Next, regarding getting rid of patients who are bogus, I have turned them away. I'm not going to risk my license for some quick cash. And I dont milk the insurance either. I just released one PI patient last month after only 8 treatments because he now feels like he did before the accident. He still comes in and pays out of pocket for adjustments and massage. Another girl I released after only 14 treatments for the same reason. She had $5000 worth of med-pay coverage from her accident, and she still has thousands left over because we released her when she was better. Sadly, not all my patients are, as you say, healed when their insurance runs out or the case is settled. You say they never return. Most do because even if they are not 100% to their pre injury status, they say it gives them relief and allows them to stay active. In response to your "isnt it funny" line is that I do not have patients who are full of crap. I did have one once, who was a work comp who was an expert at malingering. He faked all the orthopedic tests, but when his story of how he got hurt wasnt adding up, I got him out of my office. I have had others come in and ask me to put them on disability when they did not need it and offer to pay for the note. They too were turned away. And I am not the only one who does this. I have PPO patients who have unlimited chiro, and some with 90 visits per year, others with 60, and others with 40, as well as the average ones that have 12 to 24 per year. I do not burn up their insurance as you and Karlton claim we all do. They come to me when they are in pain and we help them. They are looking for alternatives to drugs, surgery, and being told to just go to bed and rest, and we help them. Did you know that this is the reason so many people come to my office? They say that their MD told them to just live with the pain, rest, or take meds, and they wanted something more proactive. They are not here because an attorney referred them. Also, despite you assertion, Steve and Karlton, that only people who have been in car accidents now come in, you could not be any more wrong. Over 50% of my practice is cash. People spend their own money because they feel better and we provide good service. I don't have any family plans, or convince people to bring their kids endlessly either, in case that is what you think it is. People pay full price, and refer their friends. I dont take HMOs because they do not allow us to do what is best for the patient and because we do quality care and not quantity. Many of my cash patients have HMOs that cover chiro, but have come to me and pay out of pocket because we have better service. REgarding your question about meds and why we ask about that. Here is one: the leading cause currently of peripheral neuropathy are statin drugs. So, if a person comes into our office with numbness and tingling, and we assume it is caused by nerve impingment and do not check the history for current meds, we may have a misdiagnosis. Additionally, since many of us recommend supplements, we need to know their meds because there are drug interactions with certain supps and herbs. For example: you don't want to give a supplement with licorice in it to a person on certain heart meds, or an herbal relaxer with valerian or other sedatives to a person on antidepressants. Having this info helps us work better with the patient's MD so that we can support each other, instead of argue dogmatically. Working together is best for the patient, arguing only boosts the practitioners ego. The last question you posited was what we do if "a person ask you a real medical question and you have no idea what there talking about?" First of all, it is rare that I have "no idea what I am talking about." If I do not have the answer, I refer them to the appropriate specialist. It is that simple. For questions about meds, I refer them back to their MD. SImple. I had one patient who on xray we found a Ewing's sarcoma. Obviously, he was sent to the emergency room. Another who had a displaced grwoth center at the proximal radius. Again, sent to emergency. Another who came in with a BO of 200 over 130 complaining of rib pain and wanting a rib adjustment. We drove him to emergency so that he could be evaluated. The MDs did, said it was musculoskeletal in origin and due to the pain and not an intrinsic heart problem. Hopefully you guys can see by now that many of us do know what we are talking about and how to work with others in the system. We are not the same DCs as the ones you talk about from 1900 or even from the 1980s. Because of the abuse of all practitioners, MDs, DCs, psychiatrists, etc, the insurance system is what it is today and patients suffer and today's physicians must practice differently. If you still hold to those notions about us after all I have shared with you 2, then it is obvious that you just want an argument and to reinforce your own beliefs based instead of really seeking the truth.

First, let me qualify my last post. Those were my last comments to Karlton as he and I were rehashing old stuff. Steve, I quote from your last post: "kristian how come once your D.C patients settle there cases they become healed never to return for treatment again. Isn't funny how a bucket of money make the patient forget there pain, thats if they really had any to began with." Again, this sounds like a blanket statement for all DCs. This just simply isn't true for all cases. Yes, it happens, and quite often, but not all the time. Sherri, I quite agree with you about Aetna. My current employer uses them, and here it is July 2005 and I'm still getting settlement notices from them for office visits we made in 2004! Man they are slow. And my bi-weekly premiums are high. Thinking about going outside work to find better insurance. Do you know if Kaiser available in AZ? Ironically, they are clients of where I work (we sell IT mainframe software). I have no back problems, so I'm not worried about out of pocket DC expenses.

Not the ones who come here to find work, ones who come here with quite a bit of money or a good support system (Russians, Indians, Asians, and many immigrants from the Middle East). I hae also seen Russian patients drive up in their new BMWs or Mercedes-Benz and pull out their Medi-Cal cards in order to be seen in our Emergency Department. Actually, in this day and time, a PPO is nothing more than a higher-priced HMO. You still have to get authorization to perform procedures, non-emergent surgeries, etc., and certain ones like Healthnet would cut corners like you would not believe (sending their Physical Therapist to determine whether or not one of their member's needed a hospital bed at home for a few weeks following an anterior to posterior five level decompression and fusion)..the spinal surgeon's opinion/patient's comfort be damned. Not to mention that a large number of PPOs do not want to pay the contracted rate they agreed to pay the health care provider. Getting some of them to pay is like pulling teeth (Aetna US Healthcare is one of the worst) and then when they do pay, they want to pay "18% below Medicare rate." I'll stick with my Kaiser plan, even though I do have to go out of pocket for chiropractic.

Not the ones who come here to find work, ones who come here with quite a bit of money or a good support system (Russians, Indians, Asians, and many immigrants from the Middle East). I hae also seen Russian patients drive up in their new BMWs or Mercedes-Benz and pull out their Medi-Cal cards in order to be seen in our Emergency Department. Actually, in this day and time, a PPO is nothing more than a higher-priced HMO. You still have to get authorization to perform procedures, non-emergent surgeries, etc., and certain ones like Healthnet would cut corners like you would not believe (sending their Physical Therapist to determine whether or not one of their member's needed a hospital bed at home for a few weeks following an anterior to posterior five level decompression and fusion)..the spinal surgeon's opinion/patient's comfort be damned. Not to mention that a large number of PPOs do not want to pay the contracted rate they agreed to pay the health care provider. Getting some of them to pay is like pulling teeth (Aetna US Healthcare is one of the worst) and then when they do pay, they want to pay "18% below Medicare rate." I'll stick with my Kaiser plan, even though I do have to go out of pocket for chiropractic.

Not the ones who come here to find work, ones who come here with quite a bit of money or a good support system (Russians, Indians, Asians, and many immigrants from the Middle East). I hae also seen Russian patients drive up in their new BMWs or Mercedes-Benz and pull out their Medi-Cal cards in order to be seen in our Emergency Department. Actually, in this day and time, a PPO is nothing more than a higher-priced HMO. You still have to get authorization to perform procedures, non-emergent surgeries, etc., and certain ones like Healthnet would cut corners like you would not believe (sending their Physical Therapist to determine whether or not one of their member's needed a hospital bed at home for a few weeks following an anterior to posterior five level decompression and fusion)..the spinal surgeon's opinion/patient's comfort be damned. Not to mention that a large number of PPOs do not want to pay the contracted rate they agreed to pay the health care provider. Getting some of them to pay is like pulling teeth (Aetna US Healthcare is one of the worst) and then when they do pay, they want to pay "18% below Medicare rate." I'll stick with my Kaiser plan, even though I do have to go out of pocket for chiropractic.

Not the ones who come here to find work, ones who come here with quite a bit of money or a good support system (Russians, Indians, Asians, and many immigrants from the Middle East). I hae also seen Russian patients drive up in their new BMWs or Mercedes-Benz and pull out their Medi-Cal cards in order to be seen in our Emergency Department. Actually, in this day and time, a PPO is nothing more than a higher-priced HMO. You still have to get authorization to perform procedures, non-emergent surgeries, etc., and certain ones like Healthnet would cut corners like you would not believe (sending their Physical Therapist to determine whether or not one of their member's needed a hospital bed at home for a few weeks following an anterior to posterior five level decompression and fusion)..the spinal surgeon's opinion/patient's comfort be damned. Not to mention that a large number of PPOs do not want to pay the contracted rate they agreed to pay the health care provider. Getting some of them to pay is like pulling teeth (Aetna US Healthcare is one of the worst) and then when they do pay, they want to pay "18% below Medicare rate." I'll stick with my Kaiser plan, even though I do have to go out of pocket for chiropractic.

I would like to know about these immigants with the PPO insurance kristian is talking about. We all know that the only type of insurance that would pay a doctor for surgery without and approval would be a PPO. My question is how are these immigrants getting this kind of high insurance coverage. I don't believe this for a second. I would think they would have medical, hmo or no insurance at all. kristian how come once your D.C patients settle there cases they become healed never to return for treatment again. Isn't funny how a bucket of money make the patient forget there pain, thats if they really had any to began with. Kristian how many patients have you had that you knew were full of crap about there accident or B.S. injury that you turned away form treatment because you knew they just wanted to play the system? Whats the point of chiro asking about medication on there forms when they really have very little training in this field and can't write or change any Rx's anyways. Also, what do you do when a person ask you a real medical question and you have no idea what there talking about?

If your statement that giving or doing something that does not provide a cure makes you a quack, then you have just put most MDs and even your father into the category of quack. Here is how... Medications- such as beta blockers, calcium channel blockers, statin drugs, NSAIDS, antidepressants and antipsychotics, insulin, thyroid, and other such drugs. None of these CURE a thing. They all treat a symptom. Therefore, according you Karlton's logic,they must be prescribed by a quack. Your dad, the neuro: does he actually cure a herniated disc and make it like new? No, he treats a symptom, and performs a procedure like a laminectomy or discetomy or fusion, etc, that treats the pain symptom but does not restore the body to its original state. And in many cases, statistically close to 90% (go to the AMA website and look up failed back surgery syndrome) there is actually no relief or an increase in symptoms 1 year after back surgery. Many times other surgeries are needed to correct the problems that resulted from the first. Does that make all surgeons quacks? Recently, in Santa Ana, some surgeons were paying immigrants 5k to have unnecessary surgeries like kidney removals, just to "take advantage of the insurance," as you would say. Does this mean all surgeons commit this kind of fraud? Therefore, according to Karlton's perfect logic, he has just blown all doctors out of the water and exposed everyone in his world as a quack. What amazes me about his posts is the arrogance and superior attitude that he takes when he is really narrow minded and about 30 years behind in his thinking. Example: most of my colleagues and I work closely with MDs and orthos to help each other give the best care possible to our patients, to give them the proper information of the pros and cons of each treatment and let them make up their own mind. Karlton represents the minority of us as what we all do. It is clear that he needs to go back to school and take some logic and scientific reasoning classes.

I think it's time for the three to go get a nice Chiro-massage from Dr. Kristian becuase my back still really does hurt.If he does a good job, using lots of warm oil I will be happy to call him whatever he wants, doctor, stallion master,ect . Now, about the price of this medical massage, I callad a local massage polar in long beach to find out the going rate for a good rub down is (I told them to hold the love, whips and chains I'm not into that). They gave me a price of $25 to $45 and hour. But let us remember they are not medical doctors but do know how to rub really good as I was told on the phone. SO Kristian if you could let us know your prices for the chiro massage that would be great. This way we could compare prices and see what the best deal is.

Karlton, Notice that I said "most" Plastic Surgeons, not "all". That was on purpose. Read; I know that there are some the do recontructive surgery. Hence the "most". I thought you would have at least comprehended that. And the $10K part. That was over multiple patients, not just one. Call it a rip off if you like. At least people like Dee are getting help. PTs are not doctors, they are therapists. They may help a person heal, but like DCs, they also cannot "cure" patients. I grow tired of rehashing the same old arguments. I'm done with this report.

You CAN blanket the entire group of Quacks who Claim they are "Doctors". By sheer definition of the word Doctor they are not Doctors as they heal nothing. Thus the blanket fits snug on anyone who dawns the moniker Doctor of Chiropractic. I said it before even here and I will say it once more, There is NOTHING wrong with a prescribed "Chiro Massage by a Chiro Massage Therapist" once you hang the term Doctor on it, then it Quacks like the Duck it is. Soon there will be less and less of them as they are being exposed as "Doctors of fraud". Why? Because the PI gravy train in California will dry up. What you will have left is a few good people who will not be so impressed with the stain of Dr. of Chiropractic, they will morph into good therapists. The rest will be driven under the waist heap of former frauds.

Patrick can you please re-read this, "Patrick my point is on this report and read how many times and ways I have said it. The Rip Off was the 10K the person spent on Chiroquactic. Glorified back rubs and joint cracking, nothing more nothing less." The INSURANCE fraud was done by BOTH QUACKS! Fighting over who was going to rip off the insurance company.

Patrick "don't you agree that the same can be said of PTs? How about plastic surgeons? Certainly, they are MDs, but most are in it for the money too, right?" 1) PTs work with Medical doctors as in part of the cure. I for one would have no problem with Ciro Massage as long as it is prescribed by a real M.D. 2) Tell that load to my mother who a Plastic surgeon saved her life. You neglected to reflect on the SURGEON part. As in HIGHLY trained Medical Doctor. I know of more plastic surgeons who do re-constructive work as do elective surgery. How many DC are welcome in surgery as the surgeon? So you have cancer on your face they have to cut it out or you die. After the surgery who you going to call a plastic surgeon or a ChiroQuactor? Oh how about this your burned in a car wreck call the chiro to come in to have your skin re-attached to your body LOL!

Karlton, A couple of things about your last post. First, you don't even remember what this report was about. And I quote from the OP: "This doctor commited insurance fraud. When I was working for another chiropractor, Dr Svastis stole some of the other doctor's patients when they showed up at his office by mistake. He told these patients, who had been referred to our office initially by friends, that the doctor they were looking for was "not in right now, but Dr Svastis can see you." He stole over $10,000 dollars in revenue from our office with this unethical approach. In one case, the person even had the card to our office but had trouble finding it and he still took them!" Did you get that? This is a report about how one DC stole patients from another, and committed insurance fraud. This is not a report about how someone spent $10K on a DC who said he could cure the patient of their ills. Next, you talk about Dee's post about how a DC helped her. You are trying to twist her post to your satisfaction. And I quote Dee: "I went to a chiropractor to help alleviate the pain and try to work through my pregnancy. I don't know about the rest of the country, but the chiropractor I went to was wonderful. His staff was so helpful and caring, he was gentle and always able to fit me in to the office when I needed assistance. Mind you, his practice is probably three times as busy as the medial doctors office I go to. That said, I went through 4 months of office visits, and after I had my baby, I stayed in the hospital and had the rest of my disc removed and the L4/L5 fused. Yes, it was tough without pain medication but I would not have been able to get through any of it without the chiropractor. Sure, it isn't for everyone and no, it is not a cure. However, for some it helps them deal with everyday pain. If you have never had that type of pain, you would not understand what I am talking about." Did you get that? She came right out immediately and said that she went to the DC for pain relief that she knew was a temporary fix, but was her only recourse during pregnancy. She even says she knew it was not a cure. You act as if she posted that the DC told her she would be cured with no further surgery needed. Totally not the case here. A quote from your next statement: "No such label is around a quacks neck or posted on his or her door." How do you know? Have you been to every office? You can't blanket statement all DCs. And finally, let me leave you with this statement. Hopefully, it will show you and Steve that I'm really not against you guys. There are many bad DCs all across this country. Most of them are in business simply to make money off PI cases. That's why you see their advertising plastered all over the phone books, billboards and late-night TV just like the PI lawyers. I agree that any DC who says he can "cure" you of your pain is not an ethical DC. Many of them abuse the system for insurance money. It's all about the money. However, not all DCs are like that. Just like there are many MDs that abuse the system also for money, but not all. Although the percentage of DCs who do is most likely much higher. All I'm saying is, don't apply the blanket "Quack" statement to all DCs. They do not deserve it, even if you feel otherwise. As in Dee's case, some are actually able to help clients. I apologize for the long-windedness. I seem to be doing that more often than not nowadays. I just wanted to make sure I got my point across.

Patrick my point is on this report and read how many times and ways I have said it. The Rip Off was the 10K the person spent on Chiroquactic. Glorified back rubs and joint cracking, nothing more nothing less. The lady who came on to say chiro helped her while she could not see any other practitioner was because her INSURANCE did not cover any other modality. Was she cured? NO she received TEMPORARY relief from pain that would have gone on her entire life had she not gone back to the Medical doctor. Patrick brought up OTC medications. Read the labels they all tell you up front what they are treating the symptoms of, not a cure. They also are regulated to tell you what damage they can cause and who should not take them. No such label is around a quacks neck or posted on his or her door. In California we have re-done our medical system to some degree. Chiros are closing in record numbers because they can no longer milk the system. Sure there are a few who have strong PI income but that is more due to attorneys feeding the quacks clients. The attorneys need large "green liens" to bolster there flimsy injury cases. That too will change in California. I bet our massage artist that much of his office traffic is now PI cases. You know I am correct. Tick Tock you time is running out, they are fixing that little mess as well. Soon there will be but a few chiroquacks left in California. When they depart it will increase the IQ of both states involved. Once they are out of here a large part of PI and Comp money will be back into the correct Medical stream, where it belonged in the first place. Thus lowering overall costs. The CONSUMER WINS ONE! Hooray!

Steve, Actually, the point of THIS report (and this report only) was that one DC was stealing patients from another. Nothing else. It was you and Karlton that started this whole tangent about whether or not DCs could cure anything. I totally agree that any DC who claims they can "cure" something is off their rocker. But that is not this report is about. You started the degeneration of this report back in April. As I said before, all professions have their bad apples, not just DCs.

The man whose book you quoted, Joe Keating, was our chiropractic philosophy instructor at LACC, which is now one of the colleges at Southern California Univeristy of Health Sciences. This class actually debunked all the mythology that DD and BJ Palmer taught at the end of the 1800s and start of the 1900s. Few of us today have ideas like DD (although there are still some people who do worship him practically). Keating's job was to get us to look scientifically at what chiropractic does instead of continuing the type of unjustified claims that some early chiros were making. Thank you for posting that quote so that this topic could be mentioned. It shows that if you respect this man enough to quote his book on the Palmers, which you can see in not biased in their favor at all, you should be able to see that our education is not as you think, since his (Keating's) instruction was received in many classes. Most health sciences started off with questionable beginnings. Just look at medical doctors from earlier, and even in the 1800s. Thankfully, we all keep continuing our education, and learning from the mistakes and crazy ideas of our predecessors so that we all can provide better services to people who need them.

I can't believe the information I have found about the founder of Chiropratic, D.D. Palmer. This quack wrote a letter putting himself in the same category as Jesus. He wanted to make chiropratic a religion with himself as the leader or like "POPE" of it. He made claims that he learned chiropratic from another world. Does anyone else out there think that this man might have been a little nuts? How can we take chiropratic seriously when the founder of it was out making crazy statement and thinking he was another jesus. This is not only sick this is so wrong.I can understand why some chiroprator might not want to talk about the founding of chiropratic.

If you had any doubt that chiropratic was nothing more than a bunch of quacks you won,t after you read some of the following passages taken from a letter writen by D.D. palmer the father of Chiropratic to P.W. johnson dated may 4, 1911. This letter was just recently uncovered in the archives of the David D. Palmer Health Science Library in Davenport, Iowa. Here is just some of the best parts: "I occupy in chiropractic a similar position as did Mrs.Eddy in Christian Science. Mrs Eddy Claimed to receive her ideas from the other world AND SO DO I. She founded theron a religioin, so may I. I am THE ONLY ONE IN CHIROPRACTIC WHO CAN DO SO" "you ask,what I think will be the final outcome of our law getting. it will be that we will have to build a boat similar to Christian Science and hoist a religious flag. I have received chiropractic from the OTHER WORLD, similar as did mrs. Eddy. No other one has lad claim to that, NOT EVEN B.J." "EXEMPTION clauses instead of chiro laws by all means, and LET THAT EXEMPTION BE THE RIGHT TO PRACTICE OUR RELIGION. But we must have a religious head, one who is the founder, as did Christ, Mohamed, Jo.Smith, Mrs. Eddy, Martin Luther and other who have founded religions. I am the fountain head" 'If either of the Davenport schools would take advantage of practicing our RELIGION FONDED BY D.D. PALMER, it will make the way of chiropractic as easy as it was for the S.C.'s Again this is only parts of the letter which stated it was submitted by Joseph C. Keating jr. Ph.D in 1995. I don't think anything more needs to be said as the letter shows chiropratic was started by a real life quack

The issue here is chiropractor who claim to be able to cure diseases and act as real doctor in treatment of sicknesses. If they would just stick to therapy of the muscularskeletal system there would be no problem. But you have so many of theses D.C.'s out there claiming the cure such things as asthma,ear infections to blood disorders that it's really nuts.I have never came across a P.T who has ever claim to be able to cure any of these problems. If they would just stop playing medical doctor and stick to what they know there wouldn't be these issues.They can go around and used the word doctor all they want but that doesn't make them real medical doctord becuase they are unable to cure any disease and there no medical proof such as xrays,or MIR's that there treatment for spine problems are a permanent cure either. I have also read where a patient have gone to see a chiroprator with the complaint of chest pains and was told he had a rib out of place that needed adjusting. Instead it turned out the patient had had or was having a heart attack. The patient had all the classic symptoms of a heart attack and the D.C's didn't even have a clue to think it might be the patients heart that was the problem and not a rib. The D.C. should have sent the patient to a medical doctor for and ekg to rule out a heart problem but instead told him to come back for more adjustments of his ribs. Who the quack now

OK, so I've sat on the sidelines watching long enough, now I want to join in on the game. This all started as a report about one DC stealing clients from another, but has degenerated into an "All DCs are Quacks" fest by Steve, Karlton and the defender of DCs Kristian. Steve's last post talks about how DCs are not MDs. I think that has already been well established. Even Kristian himself has pointed out that fact. Karlton, it looks like Kristian finally got tired of rehashing the same old argument over and over with you and Steve, and has decided to give up on his futile attempts at a constructive argument. You also made the following statement earlier in the report: "Kristian by your own words if you CAN'T cure ANYONE of ANY ILLNESS why are you a DC? Answer MONEY!" But Karlton, don't you agree that the same can be said of PTs? How about plastic surgeons? Certainly, they are MDs, but most are in it for the money too, right? And what about Tylenol? It can relieve flu symptoms, but cannot cure it. Does it fall into this rip off category too? So what does it matter? Dee said her pain was temporarily releived by a DC during her pregnancy. A PT probably could have done the same. But since the DC is providing a service (and not out trying to cure the world), don't they have every right to be in business? In every profession there will be bad apples, including MDs and even neurosurgeons. Some fields seem to have more than others (such as DCs and personal injury lawyers), so you can't just arbitrarily label every DC as a quack. If they did not provide at least some helpful service, then there certainly wouldn't be any around doing business. I enjoy a good argument (just look at the Blockbuster post). But I hate it when an argument dead ends with both sides repeating the same things over and over. Let's keep it civilized and constructive please.

How to spot a quack, L@@K for the Chiropractor sign on the door. I think we lost our massage artist. After posting the links to the peer reviewed reports he was so keen on us reading. I wonder why? I loved the other two reports on that one page both were less then five paragraphs long combined! Peer Reviewed HOG WASH reviewed to keep the greedy pigs in the insurance company pocket. So consumers know when you walk into a ChiroQuack your getting a glorified massage by a person who no more deserves to be called Doctor then I do. The original post about the walk in "Rip Off" was exposing the real Rip Off of the 10K the Quacks bilked out of that poor sap or his / her insurance company.

Is a Chiroprator a real medical doctor? I think not, If you really take the time to define these terms you will understand why I say this. First we will define Chiroprator using the American heritage dictionary. CHIROPRACTOR = " a THERAPIST WHO PRACTICES CHIROPRACTIC" As you can plainly see the american heritage dictionary does NOT say DOCTOR but CALLS THEM THERAPIST. NOW YOU MIGHT BE ASKING YOURSELF WAY IS THAT, WHY DOESN'T THE HERITAGE DICTIANARY CALL THEM Doctors but instead call them THERAPIST. If you define the terms "medical" and "Doctor" you will clearly understand this. DOCTOR = A PHYSICIAN, SURGEON, DENTIST OR VETERIANARION LICENSED TO PRACTICE HIS OR HER PROFESSION. It say nothing about chiropractor. Medical = "Requiring or devoted to medical treatment of diseases", according the dean at the New york college of chiropratic he stated that "chiroprator don't treat any diseases they treat wellness". Chiroprators will also tell you they can't cure any disease it's out of thier scope of practice. Now lets define chiropractic. CHIROPRACTIC = "A system of THERAPY which holds that disease results feom a lack of normal nerve function and which employs manipulation and specific adjustments of the body structures" once again we see that the term THERAPY is used and NOTHING is mention about any MEDICAL TREATMENT or treamnet by a doctor. Lastly some might wonder why so many chiropractors are called "quacks", while I think this is term is a bit harsh I now understand why some people call them this. Lets define the word Quack again using the american heritage dictionary. 'QUACK" AN UNTRAINED PERSON WHO PRETENDS TO BE A physician and dispenses medical advice and treatment. So we can plainly se why this term is used for chiroprators. They all know and state they can't cure any diseases, it's not in their scope of practice, they only treat welllness.But yet many are now calling themsevle physicans AND PRIMARY CARE DOCTORS.

Hey everyone, I just read that cold laser treatments are being used for hair removal now. So we might see chiroprators going into the hair removal bussiness.Finally something useful for D.C.'s to do with all there training. You will be able to get a massage and a wax job by a real doctor now (ha Ha),and all at the same office,WOW ! Maybe chiroprators will start doing makeup and hair in there offices the near future ? Anything for a buck

Hey everyone, I just read that cold laser treatments are being used for hair removal now. So we might see chiroprators going into the hair removal bussiness.Finally something useful for D.C.'s to do with all there training. You will be able to get a massage and a wax job by a real doctor now (ha Ha),and all at the same office,WOW ! Maybe chiroprators will start doing makeup and hair in there offices the near future ? Anything for a buck

Hey everyone, I just read that cold laser treatments are being used for hair removal now. So we might see chiroprators going into the hair removal bussiness.Finally something useful for D.C.'s to do with all there training. You will be able to get a massage and a wax job by a real doctor now (ha Ha),and all at the same office,WOW ! Maybe chiroprators will start doing makeup and hair in there offices the near future ? Anything for a buck

Hey everyone, I just read that cold laser treatments are being used for hair removal now. So we might see chiroprators going into the hair removal bussiness.Finally something useful for D.C.'s to do with all there training. You will be able to get a massage and a wax job by a real doctor now (ha Ha),and all at the same office,WOW ! Maybe chiroprators will start doing makeup and hair in there offices the near future ? Anything for a buck

Would you be so kind as to tell us who uses the cold laser? Did you know anyone can order and use a cold laser? Can PTs use it? (They can and some do) Can M.D. use it? (They can and some do for liposuction to help liquify the fat) Can ANYONE buy one? (YES!) So your point is you do nothing more then anyone can do on their own with the cold laser. Is that not true?

Would you be so kind as to tell us who uses the cold laser? Did you know anyone can order and use a cold laser? Can PTs use it? (They can and some do) Can M.D. use it? (They can and some do for liposuction to help liquify the fat) Can ANYONE buy one? (YES!) So your point is you do nothing more then anyone can do on their own with the cold laser. Is that not true?

Would you be so kind as to tell us who uses the cold laser? Did you know anyone can order and use a cold laser? Can PTs use it? (They can and some do) Can M.D. use it? (They can and some do for liposuction to help liquify the fat) Can ANYONE buy one? (YES!) So your point is you do nothing more then anyone can do on their own with the cold laser. Is that not true?

Would you be so kind as to tell us who uses the cold laser? Did you know anyone can order and use a cold laser? Can PTs use it? (They can and some do) Can M.D. use it? (They can and some do for liposuction to help liquify the fat) Can ANYONE buy one? (YES!) So your point is you do nothing more then anyone can do on their own with the cold laser. Is that not true?

Hi Karlton, I don't know if a PT would have been different than a DC. My insurance only would cover a DC at the time. What I did when I went to the DC was first lay on a heated type of bed with big warmed pillows. After that I was put on a machine that they put my wrists and ankles in, strapped me at the hips (my waist was quite big at the time!) and it gently pulled, basically cracking my back. It was a very slow and gentle process, and I know it doesn't work for everyone, but it sure worked for me. As soon as the machine pulled, I was pain free. Of course, the pain would eventually come back, but it was nice to be without pain for a few hours. As far as the PT goes, I cannot attest to what would have happened in my case because I didn't go to one until after I had my surgery. As I said, she only gave a few pages of exercises to do and explained to me how to do them and fill out a form everytime I did the exercises and how to increase the rep's, etc. Maybe I got a bad PT, I don't know, but she didn't seem like she really gave a darn. I was referred to her by my neurosurgeon, so I would've thought she was competent. I guess I am a bit disheartened by her attitude, and so I am guilty of the feeling that PT's don't do much, but I'm sure that isn't the case. However, since my insurance would not cover going to a PT before my surgery, I didn't even look into it, though my neuro did suggest either a DC or a PT. I went with what was partially covered at the time. I think that whether you use a PT or DC is either a personal choice, or one you go with considering what your insurance covers. I think insurance companies have changed their views on DC's and PT's today from what it was years ago. I feel I did benefit from seeing a DC. That was really the only issue I was trying to make. I hate taking pills of any kind, especially pain killers. I never wanted to be a person who had to pop 'em to live, you know what I mean? That is why I think seeing a DC worked for me. I appreciate your opinion though, and never did think of using yoga. What a great option. Of course, I don't know how good I would've been being a huge prego woman with extreme back pain, doing yoga! That is a funny picture in itself! Thanks for your response. Have a great day! Sincerely,

www.dcdoctor.com http://chiroplanet.com/ <-- BY QUACKS FOR QUACKS and ABOUT QUACKS! The KEY word here is PEER REVIEWED as in reviewed by quacks for quacks. Here is direct QUOTE of the EXTENSIVE studies you can read about! They had a whopping 110 patients! Do you know how many patients a medical procedure has to go through to get FDA approval? Direct word for word exhaustive study nothing deleted from the study in the Journal of Manipulative and Physiologic Therapeutics. Feb. 2001 as posted on http://www.dcdoctor.com/pages/rightpages_monthlynewsletter/newsletters/newsletter_vol_10_print.html "Cervical Adjustments May Lower Blood Pressure Patients with upper cervical (neck) joint dysfunction were studied to determine whether a cervical adjustment would lower their blood pressure. A total of 110 patients participated in two studies with 70 patients demonstrating signs of upper cervical subluxation/joint dysfunction. Patients receiving upper cervical adjustments had a significant decrease in systolic blood pressure compared to the control group." Hope that peer review study did not go to far over the non Doctors reading it heads. What did the group have? Oh yes your famous subluxation/joint dysfunction you do not stand by any longer. Your really on today with your slick willy tactics.

-->

1) You brought up Joe Montana. Did you read the report I copied for you? It was c**k o block full of hack QUACK tricks. Can you PLEASE answer me on how the "dr." cured the Flu and put 10 pounds back on the player? Your statement at face value, "Joe Montana- credits his chiro with saving him from back surgery." Saving him from what? HE HAD A BLOWN DISC! 2) Lance Armstrong does not have ANY chiro links on his web site yet he has medical companies links. He may well use your stuff but it is all him as you say all him. But then you go back and say its not him but his chiro. LOL @ U 3) Are you SURE you want to say Shaq? Before I BLOW you out of the water I want you on record on that one. 4) I LOVE this one! "Anyone who wants to get the actual research studies, and not just hear the rantings of 2 people who are obviously just misusing the Internet to try to "get a rise" out of us through posting ignorant statements like Karlton and Steve have should check out the peer reviewed journals: The Journal of Manipulative and Physiologic Therapeutics, and also Spine." Okay LOOK them UP People. The web pages are hosted on --> www.dcdoctor.com http://chiroplanet.com/ <-- BY QUACKS FOR QUACKS and ABOUT QUACKS! The KEY word here is PEER REVIEWED as in reviewed by quacks for quacks. Here is direct QUOTE of the EXTENSIVE studies you can read about! They had a whopping 110 patients! Do you know how many patients a medical procedure has to go through to get FDA approval? Direct word for word exhaustive study nothing deleted from the study in the Journal of Manipulative and Physiologic Therapeutics. Feb. 2001 as posted on http://www.dcdoctor.com/pages/rightpages_monthlynewsletter/newsletters/newsletter_vol_10_print.html "Cervical Adjustments May Lower Blood Pressure Patients with upper cervical (neck) joint dysfunction were studied to determine whether a cervical adjustment would lower their blood pressure. A total of 110 patients participated in two studies with 70 patients demonstrating signs of upper cervical subluxation/joint dysfunction. Patients receiving upper cervical adjustments had a significant decrease in systolic blood pressure compared to the control group." Hope that peer review study did not go to far over the non Doctors reading it heads. What did the group have? Oh yes your famous subluxation/joint dysfunction you do not stand by any longer. Your really on today with your slick willy tactics.

Dee like I said before glad it worked for you. But two questions, what did the chiro do for you that could not have been done by a PT? Your PT gave you exercises and I doubt the DC would disagree that exercise is key for everyone. Did he pull on you tug on you or manipulate you in such a way that any other person on this great earth could not do? I doubt he had magic pulling powers. However, getting rid of pain is a great thing. The person who wants to take pain pills rather then get healthy is not looking long term in life. In your case not even an option to take pain meds. Now then, there is not one chiro maneuver that is not available to a PT. Just most PT'S do not subscribe to voodoo cracking. Glad to hear you are well, pain free and medication free. My wife got great results for back pain from yoga when she was pregnant. But she was not suffering from a degenerative disc as it sounds like you were.

I would just like to say that my health insurance at the time did NOT cover physical therapy. In fact, after I had my back surgery, I had to pay for my own. That said, 6 visits per year were covered for me to see the chiropractor. I was well over that, but they only charged me $175 total for the rest of the visits not covered. I do believe they were more interested in helping me than taking my money. I want to note though, that the office I went to had a massage therapist on staff. I never benefited from seeing him because I could not lay on my stomach! I was pregnant! And before you say it, laying on your side for a massage does not cut the mustard! That is why the chiropractic treatment worked for me. As I said, everyone is different and I never expected to be cured by the DC, I only went so I could finish my pregnancy without using med's for pain. Some people do not want back surgery. That is their choice. I do not regret having surgery, nor do I regret going to a DC. Both were beneficial to me. I know people who have had surgery on their back and still have pain and problems and go to the DC for manipulation to alleviate the pain. We are all different. Chiropractic care is not a cure all, however, neither is surgery in some cases. Physical therapy, in my opinion, was a waste of my time. I basically went, paid money, got exercises to do and after a few weeks was re-evaluated to go back to normal lifestyles. Big whoop. Why did that cost me more than the chiropractor? I never saw a PT except at the beginning and at the end. Two vists. I could've got those exercises from the neurosurgeon and just done them at home. I don't go to any of those folks anymore though..the neurosurgeon or the DC. I am perfectly fine now. My range of motion is actually pretty good. I can touch the ground, flat footed, with my palms. Pretty good for someone who is 40 something with a disc fused, don't you think? :-) I appreciate your responses, and thanks for listening. Have a great day. Sincerely,

Again, you have misquoted me. I NEVER said we could not cure a single thing. There are plenty of things we CAN fix. I said we cannot cure cancer or a DISEASE with an adjustment. That is what is outside our scope of practice. With our cold laser treatments, we have a 75.6% success rate with fixing carpal tunnel syndrome. The DRX spinal decompression unit we are using shows an over 80% success rate with disc injuries, and even with failed back surgeries. 83% of cervicogenic headaches go away with chiropractic treatment. Anyone who wants to get the actual research studies, and not just hear the rantings of 2 people who are obviously just misusing the internet to try to "get a rise" out of us through posting ignorant statements like Karlton and Steve have should check out the peer reviewed journals: The Journal of Manipulative and Physiologic Therapeutics, and also Spine. And Karlton, I never said anything about us curing Lance Armstrong's cancer. I said he uses us to enhance his performance athletically. He even endorses one of the lasers we use. The real credit for beating his cancer should go to him and no one else because even the medical community gave him less than 1 % chance of survival.

Dee, I'm happy to hear the back rubs and table dance treatments helped you a little. Sorry to hear the Chiroprator was NOT able to heal you and you still had to have surgery after all those D.C. treatment. If you just would have called Dr.Kristian D.C he would have told you he and all other Chiropratics aren't able to cure or heal anyone or anything. It's not in their scope of practice. I'm sure your chiroprator did everthing he could with his ice and hot packs, tens unit,dance around the adjustment table, xrays,and jar of icy-hot. I do have 3 questions for you Dee. Did the chiroprator use up all your chiro benifits before sending you back to the M.D., and if not did he try to talk you into coming back before or after your surgery. If I were you I would ask him for a refund for the adjustment as they did not work for you. I would also like too know what your M.D thought of you going to the chiroprator,I would bet he warned you to be careful with those adjustments but said the icy/hot rubs would be fine. Next time why not try a P.T. Most likely it would be cheaper and the insurance would be more likely to pay for it if your M.D ordered it.

Dee you would have received the same relief from a P.T. or a good massage therapist. I am glad you got the help you needed but you know that massage / physical therapy would have done the same thing, why because it was the same in your case. Only the DC did not have the PT training.

Just so we are clear here your telling us that a Chiro saved Joe from having back surgery? Your also telling us that Chiro can't cure a Flu and any Chiro who tells you he can cure a flu is a QUACK? How about you telling us that subluxation is no longer a claim you can stand by because it is not medically sound? Best get your facts straight. Joe had BACK surgery he had a blown disc! Then a QUACK wormed his way in to Joe life and did his "MAGIC". Here is an excerpt where the QUACK who worked on Joe claims to have CURED THE FLU! LOL! "Everyone knows about Joe Montanas's back surgery a couple of years ago, but what the public doesn't know about is his regular visits to Dr. Athens. He has been a regular patient along with his entire family for over two years, and of course received Athen's "magic touch" before the game on Superbowl Sunday. According to Dr. Athens, Montana's problem is his neck, lower back, and the elbow on his throwing arm. "Joe Montana has a subluxation near the atlas," Athens explains. "With regular chiropractic adjustments Joe knows his depth perception is better. He has more energy, quickness, and he tells me that he feels a sharper mental alertness." After his adjustments with Dr. Athens, Montana dosen't have the painful headaches that used to plague him. During superbowl week, it was Joe Montana who led the parade of 49ers getting their pre-game adjustments. Athens continues, "Joe felt as fresh in the fourth quarter as he did at the opening kick-off. During the pre-game visit, I adjusted his atlas, his right elbow, and again the lower back. Roger Craig has been a believer for over six years. On Tuesday of Superbowl week, Dr. Athens began his three times-a-day adjustments to relieve the flu symptoms. With Athens' help, Craig gained back the lost weight, and felt strong by game time. The 100% recovery was accomplished with nothing more than the adjustments. No drugs, no anti-biotics. Craig said he never felt stronger in his whole career. The stories go on and on." Now I thought you said "subluxation" was no longer accepted? Want to know where this came from? THE CHIROWEB HISTORY PAGE! Quacks every one of you! Here is more from the same report to laugh at! "As Dr. Athens combed through the pile of pink message slips it became obvious to him that many of the 49ers had been awaiting his arrival much as young children await Santa on Christmas, or the money being left by the tooth fairy." YUP and you get as much medical help from the tooth fairy as any QUACK! More fun from the same report! "Bubba Paris was suffering from low back pain and was taking muscle relaxers as prescribed by the team medical staff. Paris was getting little relief from the medication, so at the suggestion of several teammates he called Dr. Athens. "Bubba was suffering with a fifth lumbar subluxation." What was he suffering from? subluxation oh yeah! Now before you cry foul here is the WHOLE TEXT! Just to point out that report was very proud of the FREE advertising Quacks received and HOW MUCH it was worth. LOL at QUACKS! Always the money! http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/08/05/15.html "Chiropractic History Made at Superbowl XXIV -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The legions of Bronco fans worldwide were stunned as the San Francisco 49ers handed Denver the most lopsided defeat in Superbowl history. In the the 55-10 romp, the 49ers were unstoppable from the opening whistle to the final gun. Many agree the game wasn't as close as the score indicated. The Niners could easily have run up the score in the final minutes as Joe Montana's backup Steve Young (featured in Mentors) took the final snaps and simply downed the ball inside the Bronco 20, choosing not to further humiliate the proud and talented Denver squad. Many highly respected football experts believe that John Elway is actually a better quarterback than Joe Montana. But that isn't what 110 million people witnessed on Sunday the 28th of January. What they saw was total dominance by San Francisco. The talents of John Elway and his bunch seemed to have been left back in the mile high city as the Niners did any and everything they chose to do. To say the citizens of Denver were embarrassed is being kind. So what is the secret ingredient that makes the boys from the bay so dominant? Is it superior coaching? Superior talent? I don't think so. Denver Head Coach Dan Reeves is a proven winner, and his offensive coordinator is none other than the brilliant Mike Shanahan, former head coach of the Los Angeles Raiders. So what is it that made the game so lopsided? According to many players on the 49ers, the "secret" weapon in their arsenal was a chiropractor named Nick Athens from San Carlos, California. Unless you've been there to experience it first hand, the week leading up to the game is an unbelievable mass of media all vying for the "scoop" -- the "hot" story of the day. This year's game made chiropractic history. An estimated 90 million viewers watched the CBS pre-game show as Irv Cross interviewed Dr. Athens while Joe Montana received his pre-game adjustment. With the advertising rates set at $750,000 for a 30 second spot, the chiropractic profession received over $2,000,000 of air time, not to mention the talent fee Joe Montana would normally receive for such "endorsements." Dr. Athens feels; "every DC in the world owes a large debt of gratitude to Joe and the rest of the 49ers. They are doing more to bring us into the public eye than anyone ever has!" All week long, Dr. Athens found himself surrounded by reporters from CBS Television, Fox News, USA Today, UPI & AP, Sports Illustrated, and dozens of newspapers from across America. Why? To learn how he was chosen to provide chiropractic care to what has now been dubbed "The Team of The Decade." As the throngs of journalists were poised with pencils & notepads they learned that it was Roger Craig who first began utilizing Dr. Athens over six years ago when Craig was a rookie running back trying to win a spot on the 49er roster. It was during this critical time in his blossoming career that Craig discovered the talents of Dr. Nick Athens, and the "magic touch" he possessed known as chiropractic. Roger Craig is the workhorse of the 49ers. He's known as the Lou Gerhig of football due to his never missing a game in his entire career. This fact, he says is due largely to Dr. Athens and the chiropractic care he as been receiving. As time passed Craig began acting as the 49er's "unofficial" pied-piper for chiropractic. Other players watched as his durability improved, stamina increased, and he enjoyed rapid recovery from injuries that tended to take longer with other players who where not under chiropractic care. All the evidence pointed to Dr. Athens' success and further validated the efficacy of the treatments. The old cliche, "The proof is in the pudding" was never more evident than inside the painted gridiron on the Superdome's artificial turf. On the Tuesday prior to gameday, Dr. Athens arrived at the 49ers headquarters in the Hilton Hotel in New Orleans. As he checked in, the attractive front desk clerk pulled a large stack of papers out of the message box. She smiled knowingly, "Dr. Athens it seems that you have a lot of players waiting to see you." As Dr. Athens combed through the pile of pink message slips it became obvious to him that many of the 49ers had been awaiting his arrival much as young children await Santa on Christmas, or the money being left by the tooth fairy. Message after message read essentially the same, "Nick, call me as soon as you arrive---I need you to adjust me!" The list was long, from Roger Craig to Joe Montana, Jerry Rice to Bubba Paris. Not wanting to delay any treatment, Dr. Athens immediately called the players in the order received, no special treatment. First-come, first-served. The first call was from defensive back Eric Wright, "Dr. Nick, I've got a groin pull---I need an adjustment right away!" Dr. Athens left the unpacking for later and proceeded directly up one floor to Wright's room. After one knock the door flew open, "I need an adjustment baaaad!" Eric Wright was in obvious pain as Dr. Nick watched him limp across the room. Within five minutes after the adjustment, Wright felt almost complete relief. Next on the list was Roger Craig, suffering from a severe case of the flu. Craig had lost nine pounds and felt very weak. After his evaluation, Dr. Athens designed a treatment program that would include adjustments three times a day for the following five days leading up to the big game on Sunday (the most dramatic case of the week). Defensive back Ronnie Lott had suffered a deep thigh injury during the championship game with the Los Angeles Rams two weeks earlier. The pain was so severe, walking was difficult. Dr. Athens gave him the needed adjustment and prescribed Lott's treatment schedule for the rest of the week. As Dr. Nick left for his next "patient" Lott smiled, "Thanks Nick!" And so it went, all through the evening and late into the night. The "word" had spread to all the 49ers---Dr. Nick was in town! By Wednesday, Dr. Athens needed the help of his colleague, Dr. Jody Serra. Athens continues, "He set up his practice in Lebanon, New Jersey. It's Dr. Serra who treats the team when they travel East. Jody Serra is one of the most talented men I know. He is very much in demand by the players." All week long there was so much demand for adjustments both doctors could barely keep up! Thursday, more adjustments. Friday, more of the same intense pressure. Then, on the final night before the big game it got out of hand when 35 players from the 49er squad had to see Drs. Athens and Serra. They knew that they would "bury" the Broncos if they felt good physically, and that meant they would be mentally superior, sharper, quicker, more intense. Defensive back Tim McKyer was hurting badly when he first saw Dr. Athens. A few adjustments later, his muscle pull was totally healed. After the final adjustment he began to dance around the room showing Dr. Athens how great he felt, he began to sing, "On Super Sunday---I'm going to be superrrrman!" Bubba Paris was suffering from low back pain and was taking muscle relaxers as prescribed by the team medical staff. Paris was getting little relief from the medication, so at the suggestion of several teammates he called Dr. Athens. "Bubba was suffering with a fifth lumbar subluxation. The medication was sending his body phony neurological communications. After his adjustment he stopped taking the drugs and told me he felt like a new man." Bubba's remarks give further credibility to the success of chiropractic care, "I'm just worried that this wonderful feeling won't last until game time!" Dr. Athens assured him, "Don't worry Bubba, we'll adjust you right before the game." Paris' east-west smile showed Athens he had a happy and confident new patient. The unsung hero in the Bubba Paris case is Dr. Mark Steed who invented the adjusting table that carries his name. Bubba Paris is listed in the media guides as weighing 299 pounds. In reality he tilts the scales at well over 350 pounds so it took a quality table to support the mass. Dr. Athens really enjoyed working on the big man who, according to the doctor, "has a wonderful infectious personality. He's just a big kid in a huge grown-up's body. One thing for sure, he's now a real believer in chiropractic." Everyone knows about Joe Montanas's back surgery a couple of years ago, but what the public doesn't know about is his regular visits to Dr. Athens. He has been a regular patient along with his entire family for over two years, and of course received Athen's "magic touch" before the game on Superbowl Sunday. According to Dr. Athens, Montana's problem is his neck, lower back, and the elbow on his throwing arm. "Joe Montana has a subluxation near the atlas," Athens explains. "With regular chiropractic adjustments Joe knows his depth perception is better. He has more energy, quickness, and he tells me that he feels a sharper mental alertness." After his adjustments with Dr. Athens, Montana dosen't have the painful headaches that used to plague him. During superbowl week, it was Joe Montana who led the parade of 49ers getting their pre-game adjustments. Athens continues, "Joe felt as fresh in the fourth quarter as he did at the opening kick-off. During the pre-game visit, I adjusted his atlas, his right elbow, and again the lower back. Roger Craig has been a believer for over six years. On Tuesday of Superbowl week, Dr. Athens began his three times-a-day adjustments to relieve the flu symptoms. With Athens' help, Craig gained back the lost weight, and felt strong by game time. The 100% recovery was accomplished with nothing more than the adjustments. No drugs, no anti-biotics. Craig said he never felt stronger in his whole career. The stories go on and on. Jerry Rice, the MVP in the the previous Superbowl, had a fantastic game scoring three touchdowns. John Taylor had a great game. The whole team, according to Dr. Athens was, "totally balanced for peak performance." The Broncos on the other hand were out of sync the whole game. They didn't have any idea how the 49ers were so dominant. "Let's be honest." Athens continued, "The Denver Broncos are just as talented as any team in the NFL. These athletes are all gifted. So you have to look at all the factors to evaluate why San Francisco was so overpowering. In my opinion, it's because they received chiropractic adjustments all week long. They know chiropractic works. They know it will prolong their careers. The Broncos would have been a different team if they had a chiropractor working with their players. John Elway was lost out there. He didn't have energy, his instincts seemed to be dulled, his peripheral vision was poor, consequently, he was beat up all day long. Montana wasn't touched the whole game. Both teams have talent; but it takes more than talent to win a Superbowl. It's a simple formula; Talent + Balanced Health = Victory Those god-given abilities were balanced with chiropractic adjustments. The Denver Broncos weren't. It's just that simple." The 49er management has known for some time that most of their players visit Drs. Athens and Serra. It's obvious they embrace anything that keeps the ball rolling as it has been. Why mess around with success? Even the owner, Eddie Dibartolo has promised Dr. Athens that he'll come in for an adjustment once he returns from his post-Superbowl holiday. He wants to find out first hand how something so simple can work such dramatic results. After the game Joe Montana smiled, said he felt great, "Thanks Nick. Let's do it again next year!" The 49ers didn't know it at the time, but they were making chiropractic history! The future is full of promise for doctors who will follow the proven path. It dosen't happen overnight. Dr. Nick Athens has been working toward this goal for over eight years. He suggests that chiropractors begin on the local level. "Work with the high school athletes and the local colleges. Remember, as the young athletes get older and grow into adults, your reputation grows right along with them. When a few make it into the professional ranks, who do you think they'll call? Of course it will be you, their personal chiropractor who helped get them there!" Note: Dr. Nick will be featured in an upcoming issue of Sports Illustrated. The interview was conducted in New Orleans by renowned Sports Illustrated writer, Paul Zimmerman. To contact Dr. Athens call (415) 593-8441. Mike Radford Whittier, California" Now you can try and WORM your way out of what your own fellows tout. Face it your a massage artest.

After reading this entire thread I feel that my two cents worth may be interesting to those dealing with chiropractors versus medical doctors. First, I have had two back surgeries. I had a herniated and fragmented disc, L4/L5. My sciatic nerve was almost paper thin and I was in extreme pain. I went to a medical doctor who sent me to a neurosurgeon, and I had all but 10% of the disc removed. One year later, I began having the same pain down my leg and knew it was happening all over again. I, however, was pregnant and could not take med's for pain and swelling, nor have another operation. I went to a chiropractor to help alleviate the pain and try to work through my pregnancy. I don't know about the rest of the country, but the chiropractor I went to was wonderful. His staff was so helpful and caring, he was gentle and always able to fit me in to the office when I needed assistance. Mind you, his practice is probably three times as busy as the medial doctors office I go to. That said, I went through 4 months of office visits, and after I had my baby, I stayed in the hospital and had the rest of my disc removed and the L4/L5 fused. Yes, it was tough without pain medication but I would not have been able to get through any of it without the chiropractor. Sure, it isn't for everyone and no, it is not a cure. However, for some it helps them deal with everyday pain. If you have never had that type of pain, you would not understand what I am talking about. In this country, you have options. You can have surgery, you can do nothing, or you can go to the chiropractor or physical therapy. I think it is wonderful that we all have the choice. Surgery isn't an option for everyone. I chose surgery because I just couldn't "Favre" it forever. I hate taking vicodin. I am thankful that chiropractors are here. Mine helped me through a difficult and painful time. He was a real blessing. It's too bad that some have to ruin the good side of the profession with questionable tactics and ethics. However, that happens everywhere. Thanks to those of you DC's out there who work to help those of us who need you and want your services. You are appreciated!

ALL Pro Sports teams have people to massage the team so what if a few are back crackers! They also have TEAM DOCTORS. Lance Armstrong has not been on TV saying how a DC saved him from Cancer he does do that for his Doctors and the company that made the REAL medicine that saved his life! Shaquille O'Neill pitches ICY-HOT why not Chiroquacks? LOL @ U Plenty of Pro teams have groupies as well. In fact many pro teams send hookers to the other team to keep them up late before a big game. Who knows the could be sending in quacks to the other team as well. So what is your point that a few of your fellows have wormed there way into the inner circles of wealthy pro athletes? So what so have blond bimbos. You CURE nothing, YOU HEAL NOTHING, YOU ONLY MASSAGE soft tissue. Then charge up the arse for it.

Too bad you worked in an office like that. Obviously, we are not all like that and in fact most of us are honest and ethical, but it is the bad apples that hurt the rep of many. However, here are some people who are HUGE fans of what we do because it has kept them at the top of their game. Lance Armstrong- takes his personal chiro with him on the Tour de France and gets cold laser treatment from him so he can recover faster. John Stockton- credits his chiro for helping him have a long and healthy career. Joe Montana- credits his chiro with saving him from back surgery. Emmit Smith- had his personal chiro on the sidelines with him during games. The list goes on, and includes names like Shaq, Tiger Woods, Arnold Schwarneggar, Bill Romanowski, and countless others. Pro teams like the SF 49ers, KC Chiefs, and NY Jets all use chiros and also cold laser. Our support in the sporting community keeps growing, as it does in all communities. Maybe someday you and Karlton will at least objctively listen to what these sports greats have to say about how much chiropractic has helped them, and not view your experiences as being how all experiences are. Best of luck in whatever you choose to do.

You want to know what makes your profession quacks, ok fine, here it is! The majority of you D.C. claim to be able to treat diseases such as high blood pressure, stress, and asthma. you yorself ageed that your profession does not treat diseases but yet your coquacks are out there claiming to treat everything under the sun. Your profession is the one with no logical reasoning for making these treatment claims. The majority of the medical industry dislikes you D.c. for the way you lie, trick, and smooth talk the patients into the voodoo like treatments that they could basicly do at home with a heating pad and a jar of mineral ice. You all the that trained speech that you give to all your patients., (just like a used car salesman) . You all have your front office girls whom you tell to call you Doctor 1000 times a day .The girl who call and bug us when we cancel our appoitmnets. The once you see your front office girl is not able to get us back in it's then your turn to get on the phone to try to suck us back in. Does this sound familar Doc ? Oh, and what prizes does your office give out for referring a patient to your office? How many patients who's cases fell apart or insurance wouldn't pay have you let off the hook for thier bill. I bet you there is not one that you haven't either sent to collections or sued. Chiropractor have one of the highest precents of collecting theirs fees in the medical field. it's not really about caring for the patient come on DOC, don't pee on my shoes and tell me it raining. It's all about sucking every dollar you can out of insurance companies and the patients. You can't Bullshit man, I have work in the pits of hell (the D.C. offices),I have broken bread with the Devil (chiropractors) man. I prayed and was set free never to return to such a wicked place. I worked with too many of you snakes and seen how you operate and act.

How many more things don't you do any longer? Every time you are hit with the truth you squirm into saying we do not do that any longer. So you don't heal, you do not cure, you simply massage money out of the system. When will you stop doing that as well?

What the NYCC dean said is true. We do not treat diseases...like cancer, heart disease, etc. We primarily treat musculoskeletal injuries. Additionally, how does that make us quacks since we are not treating a disease? We still are helping people and actually have a higher patient satisfaction rate than traditional medical doctors. You have no logical conclusion in calling us quacks. Lastly, regarding the vertebral subluxation complex, the majority of us do not even talk about "subluxation" anymore. That is a theory that is clung to by certain practitioners.

Hey Kristian, I have a question for you. Out of the 14,000 or so diseases afflicting mankind today how many of these disease has chiropractic been able to cure and that there is scientific proof to back it up? I can tell you the answer to this question, NONE.( Info from New York Chiropratic College) The dean goes on the say " We do not treat disease we treat wellness" So how can you call yourself a doctor when you don't even treat any diseases. Further research into your Quack training shows that despite surgery, autopsy and sophisticated imagery, NO spinal vertebrel SUBLUXATION has ever been seen or shown thay a press on a nerve interfering with the passage of enery down that nerve causing diseases that chiropratic claim to treat. No more you talk to more we found out what quacks you chiroprators are. You better go get another Court order to silence to truth because the truth about you quacks is leaking out again all over the country.

First of all, Steve, I did not try to put myself in comparison with a surgeon, and second I was not complaining o=about the income. That was merely to show you that most of us are not rich from using up insurances like you were claiming. And research from the university of Columbia showed that manipulation actually reduced the occurrence of degeneration and improved joint range of motion. As for swelling for immobilization after an accident, you are correct that that is for protection. However, the problem is that if nothing is done to restore proper biomechanics then a person can have long term problems. I don't know why you are so angry after that last post, as I stated nothing inflammatory towards you, just some income statistics and injury statistics.

You really need to get back on your meds. Stooping to hurling attacks about people you do not know like the following are LAUGHABLE even for a low life "Doctor of Chiropractic! You can do better then that please. I said it IMHO you sir are a QUACK (and you have not proved are not in fact hurling false hoods like the ones you just posted show the shallows of your sole. I never said YOU SIR Crippled anyone. Now you say this sort of thing? How about we report you to your ethics committee? If you used your real name you will not be hard to find. If you did not your reports should not be posted. You hurled the following dung,"If you really want to talk about statistics, how many people did your dad cripple with his surgeries?" Answer NONE he has a CLEAN history, IN FACT he sued his insurance company in the 70s when in the "insurance scare" his insurance company tried to raise his rates 1000% for no reason. Not only did he win but he changed the law. So once more your talking out your D.Q.A. (Duck Quack Arse) You are nothing more then a massage parlor. Except the girls make more then $25.00 per visit. LOL @ U I said it before and you have YET to disprove it, When is a person going into a Chiropractors office a RIP OFF? Answer when they need a DOCTOR!

Kristian, If chiropratic are becoming so popular and such greart healers as you put it then why did Los Angelas College of Chiropratic dump it's name and mission statement after almost 100 years amd now are named Southern California University of Health Science. They also changed their misssion statement about using medicine. You stated before D.C.'s belive in the body's ability to health itself with the help of chiro to alien the bones of the spine so nerves are unimpeded. But right here your famous D.C. college are now pushing for you quacks to "learn to analyze, formulate and prescribe herbs", and why is that? Because that is where the money is now. Just follow the money!If the public wants medicine (pill)that bad and it makes the D.C.'s more money and keeps the patient coming back then lets give it to them. So your quack school threw away everything it belived in just to chase after to money. What a joke your profession is!

How dare you put youself in the same category as a surgeon! You don't have 1/10 the training they do and To complain that you are only getting $25 or $50 dollars a treatment sickens me.You really think a insurance company should pay you more that $50 a visit for your little 2 to 5 minute adjustment and dance around the table.You don't even do the P.T part you have your Chiro assnt do it. If you saw a patient every 5 minutes you would be making over $3000 dollars a hour if you could get enough suckers to come to your clinic for adjustment. So don't sit there and compalin to me about your pay. You d.c's. quacks did it to yourself being so greedy with the system. You can keep writing these posting until Hell freezes over. We patients that have been for D.C. treatments know what you Quacks are really all about, MONEY. If you really want to help someone go be a nurse. oh but then you would have to go back to school because your D.C. training doesn't count for s**t at a real university. Your school and training is right up there with Phil's Jr college, Bryman ,and many other of these trade schools. Your a joke nothing more and nothing less. Ask yourself this question Doc. Why does to body use swelling to immobilize and injuried joint? To prentent that area from moving while the body gives itself a chance to heal itself. Now you want to say that this is bad for you.you are really a joke. Studies have also shown that adjustments of the spine and joints hane cause artistes later on in life, so why your treatment might make some people fell a little better now later on they will pay the price for those adjustments. I am going to make it my mission to tell everyone I x-ray from now on my sad but true Chiroquacker stories. If I can keep just one poor person away for getting hurt or burn by you quacks then I have done my job and done it well.

Just yesterday after my post there was a report of a BIG bust of HUMAN smuggling in the SEX trade from S. Korea on Ch. 4 in Los Angles. Guess what kind of offices they busted? CHIROPRACTORS and Spas! LOL Never heard of that happening at say a Orthopedic office now have you? SO funny to see the reporters in front of the Chirquactors offices with hookers being taken out! I have posted links to the photos I hope RIP OFF REPORT will post the photos not just the links! Photos include, Western Chiropractic Therapy David W. Hiserodt D.C. http://www.nbc4.tv/slideshow/4677449/detail.html?qs=;s=4;w=320 Green Chiropractor http://www.nbc4.tv/slideshow/4677449/detail.html?qs=;s=1;w=320 Here is the text, "Authorities Bust Alleged South Korean Prostitute Smuggler Ring Alleged Ringleaders Accused Of Bringing Hundreds Of Women Into LA POSTED: 3:55 pm PDT July 1, 2005 UPDATED: 5:48 pm PDT July 1, 2005 LOS ANGELES -- Eighteen people who allegedly smuggled hundreds of South Korean women into the country to work as prostitutes in Los Angeles-area brothels were arrested Thursday night, authorities said. ---------------------- Images: Smuggling Arrests ---------------------- About 50 women who were working at the alleged brothels -- which authorities say were disguised as massage parlors, spas and chiropractic clinics -- were also taken into custody during the raids, though they have not been charged, authorities said. The women are being interviewed in hopes of gaining more information about how they came into the country and how they were treated. So far, there is no evidence the women were forced to work in the brothels, where they were paying off smuggling fees of up to $16,000, said Debra Wong Yang, the U.S. Attorney in Los Angeles. "Rest assured, if there's any indication of human trafficking, we will fully investigate it," Yang said. A total of 23 people were named in a criminal information filed Thursday that charges them with conspiracy. One of the alleged ringleaders, Young Joon Jung, is in custody, but another, h*o Kyung Kim, was one of five suspects who remained at large as of Friday afternoon, authorities said. The alleged brothels include spas in Santa Monica, West Los Angeles and South Gate, and chiropractic businesses on Western Avenue and Santa Monica Boulevard. The ring allegedly used private taxi drivers to take the women to the brothels. The drivers also allegedly drove the women to Texas, Colorado and the San Francisco area to work as prostitutes. Yang said the alleged use of drivers shows the ring was sophisticated and organized. "This type of criminal organization further exploits those immigrants who already come to this country in a vulnerable state," she said. A related crackdown was announced Friday morning in San Francisco, where 29 people were indicted for allegedly taking part in a smuggling and prostitution ring there. Yang said the two organizations would trade the women depending on their needs. Some of the women who worked at the brothels may be allowed to remain in the area as material witnesses in the case, while others may be deported, authorities said. The women apparently entered the United States from Mexico and Canada, and some came on tourist visas, Yang said." Photos in slide show format; http://www.nbc4.tv/slideshow/news/4677449/detail.html

Steve, Chiros are not getting rich off people's insurance. The average income for DCs is only $80-90,000 per year. That is hardly lining our pockets like the picture you claim. Most of us, MOST, are in this because we love it and we love to help people. And most private insurances will only pay between 25 and 70 dollars per visit for 12 to 24 visits. That is hardly getting rich, especially when you compare it to how much a surgery pays. Your claim that people should not see us for car accidents but should go to an MD shows that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to car accidents. The reason people see us is usually because they can get no help from the MD other than pain killers and anti-inflammatories. Many people today are wary of meds, and want a natural alternative. The care that we provide gives them relief and speeds their recovery while minimizing the formation of scar tissue. It is critical after an accident to ensure that normal range of motion is restored and that muscle symmetry is restored. If they are not, this will lead to poor biomechanics and the formation of scar tissue which can increase the chances for degeneration and the development of chronic pain. A high percentage of people develop cervicogenic headache after an accident. Chiropractic treatment has been shown by studies to be effective in 83% of these types of headaches. So these pictures that you and Karlton paint really smack of the efforts of the AMA prior to our Supreme Court lawsuit victory against them with Wilkes v the AMA. In 1987, they were found GUILTY of spreading false information about chiropractic in a systematic effort to "destroy and discredit" chiropractic. They did so with all forms of "alternative" healthcare. You can read about it in the book "Reclaiming Our Health," by John Robbins, founder of the Heal the Bay foundation. But it really does not matter what misinformation you continue to spread because the fact is that alternative therapies are booming because traditional medicine alone is failing. Look at the surgery failiures and prescription medication deaths. Statistically, doctors are one of the top 5 causes of deaths per year (over 250,000 per year from properly prescribed medications).

In that story you quoted, it said these places are fronts for ORGANIZED CRIME, and that very often there is NO legitimate proprietor on premises. These places are NOT run by chiros, genius. Read the story again and make sure you understand what you have read before you misinterpret something. The Russian mafia is behind many of them. If your reading comprehension is this poor, I can imagine what kind of a crappy job you did editing those books you claim to have edited. And regarding your idea that we talk about x-rays being healing, you again need to get your facts straight. That statement was by a PATIENT around the turn of the 20th century who thought he got better by a "chiropractic x-ray." And even if that were an old chiropractic belief, are you going to hold MDs accounting for prescribing cigarettes for stress in the 1950s, or how about for Vioxx in the last 2 decades, which resulted in over 55,000 DEATHS. If you really want to talk about statistics, how many people did your dad cripple with his surgeries? Statistics show that 90% of them FAIL after one year, and that most patients require multiple procedures and are still in pain. Meanwhile your dad lined his pockets with tens of thousands of dollars per surgery so he could pamper a brat like you. I know people like you and your dad. The kind who took one look at my xray when I was injured, and since my insurance was so good they wanted to set up surgery for me right away. They told me I was going to be crippled without it and in constant pain. Guess what. My chiro fixed me. And now I have no more pain. Meanwhile a friend of mine with the same injury went for the surgery. He came out walking with a cane. Kept getting worse. They told him he needed another. And another. Til they even had to operate on his NECK. He eventually killed himself because the pain from the surgery made him so miserable. Isolated event? hardly. I have several post-surgical patients in my office, and all but 1 say they are in worse pain now than before the surgery. So keep on chasing windmills Don Quixote, since you think they are all dragons.

We do both agree on that post. the latest news report about the harm of X-Rays fly in the face of Chiropractic claims of healing power of x-rays. One other point we have not talked about Chiroquactors is the flood of Chiro / Massage "providers" who are nothing more then a front for prostitution. It is very wide spread in the valley. Strip malls with a chiro who has hookers working the back room. Here is part of a story from USA Today, "Raids by vice squads in California cities in the past two years have hit scores of strip-mall storefronts that display the state license of a healing professional as a front for illicit sex. In back rooms, the police find miniskirted "masseuses" practicing unorthodox therapy and funneling the proceeds to organized crime. The tip-offs to cops: Customers ask for massages and "very seldom ever ask for the chiropractor," says Tom Rackleff, a police detective in Westminster, Calif. Frequently, no legitimate proprietor is on the premises. Office hours stretch past midnight. Neighbors notice that the clientele is exclusively male. The johns are responding to adult-entertainment ads offering "Oriental massage" or touting "curvaceous seoritas."

Lets face the fact, The only thing most Chiroprators make better are their own Bank accounts. I have yet to hear about one chiroprator that does any type of free services for the community. I'm glad the workers comp laws have changed and now limit D.C offices visits. The D.C. I was going to years ago had me come in sometimes twice a day for treatments. While I was in a very high amount of pain I found it more painful to have to drive there twice a day instead of once a day and resting the rest of the day. I finaly gave in the had the surgery after six months of treatment at the D.C. The only thing the chiorpratic did is made himself about $10,000 dollars off my treatments. It's ashame that there missing up the insurance system for everyone. They like to latch on to the injuried workers and suck every dollar they can get out of there insurance. Accidents equal $$$ for them. How many M.D's do you see out there that advertise to the injuried worker or the car accident victim. Almost none. Now open the phone book to Chiroprator and all you see is there ads looking to make a buck off other people accidents and suffering. If you D.C. can't fix the problem in 24 visits then you should pass the patient to a real docotr who might be able to do some good. here a list of patients I think a real medical doctor should refer to chiroprators. Fakers,hypochondriacs, patients who want voodoo style treatment, patient who enjoy hanging out at the doctors office because they have no life and seniors who love to complain about ever acke and pain they have. This way the real doctor will have more openings to treat the truly sick and injured.

Listen the facts of the matter are chiros are defaulting in record numbers. Our Ortho Doctors are not defaulting not one. Chiros are closing in record numbers in California. You said it and it is true you can not cure anyone that is out of the scope of your practice. Now you exposed the great lie that is Chiropractic. You know and I know that workmans comp laws were changed to stem the tide of bogus claims and bogus treatments from quacks. Orthos and Neuros are busy as ever in fact do a little research you will see that even the LA Times has done stories on how there is a shortage of Spinal doctors. The only people really affected by the change in laws are those who would bilk the system. GOOD riddance!

Chiros are not the only ones "dropping like flies" since the work comp changes. You know who has really been hit hard? People like your dad. Many surgical centers have closed as a result. Many orthos and neuros are struggling. So what is your point? Do you revel in other people's tough times. It will trickle back and affect your business too. Additionally, many law firms have moved out of the state due to the changes. Meanwhile, many of us chiros are still doing great. Why? Because we have a strong base of satisfied patients who continue to refer us their friends and family and who come see us when they have a problem because they know there is a high likelihood that we can get them better. So don't get your hopes up, we'll still be here for you to hate.

Steve drink your chiro-quack-coolaid. We sell digital x-ray equipment and some of my sales people go into quacks offices. Want to know who has the highest default rates out of the following groups? 1) Orthopedic offices 2) Vet clinics 3) Podiatrists 4) G.P. Md's 5) Chiropractors <-- YUP! Because of the workmans comp changes in California Chiroquacks are dropping like flys. Your funny though with your insults, did you enjoy the cough cough?

You are such a two-face. So it's fine for you to make money off chiropractors by renting and selling them offices but then you turn around and backstab them all, What a snake you are. You really are a sick-f**k.I never said I was molested by a chiroprator, I was just asking if that was part of the phyisical seeing how there just students.By the way I sued my neurosurgeon for malpractice back in 1990 and won. He was so worried about losing his license because of the quack job he did he had his insurance pay me off on the condition I wouldn't file charges with the state medical board office. SO quack quack quack to you and your dad. Theres other quacks in the pond that aren't chiroprators

No non of the above. So how did you like your exam? In fact I make a part of my living off selling to quack offices. Have yet to see ONE who is not a rip off. My father is a neurosurgeon in over 40 years he has yet to see an honest one. So why not expose them for what they are? RIP OFFS here on RIP OFF Report! Anger no, hate no, willingness to point out they are QUACKS sure not a problem

Karlton, Whats the deal man, You sound like you have some real issues about chiroprators. Did a chiroprator molest you once your something ? Did one try to adjust your weenie once? Maybe your boyfriend was a chiropractor and dump you for another guy.Did your chiropractor drop your treatment when your insurance money ran out? Karlton there is help out there for your mental issues and I pray that you seek it. Having this much hate in your heart is not good for you. Disliking a profession is one thing but you really take the cake. I am not that crazy about chiropratic treatment myself but I understand they do have there palce in the medical field and if patients want too seek treatments from them they have a right too. Chiroprators don't force the patient in the door to seek treatment; the patient is coming in willingly. It's people like you who bad mouth chiropratic so much with lies and made up bullshit that makes these D.C. have to over-promote there treatments to be given a chance in the medical field. You even made fun of Kristins name, Shame on you. Lets just stop all this hate.

One BIG difference here is ChiroQuactic is a direct result of Modern Day QUACKS, unlike the leach and bleed days of old. Oh and by the way George W demanded a servant BLEED him you fool! LOL @ U! "No one is quite sure what killed Washington. He was in fine health at age 67 when he contracted hoarseness and a sore throat a few days after helping to move a snow-mired carriage near his home. There was little alarm until he awoke in the middle of the night with difficulty breathing, almost unable to talk. A doctor was summoned, but Washington did not wait, ordering an employee to bleed him. Eventually, Washington requested no further bleeding be performed." Now then back to the original post. Where on earth is a walk in client being riped off> When he or she walks into a Chiroquactors office. IF (the BIG IF here folks) you HEAL NOTHING, YOU CAN RENDER NO REAL LASTING RELIEF FOR YOUR CLIENTS then your a QUACK! Next one to post is a QUACK! LOL

One BIG difference here is ChiroQuactic is a direct result of Modern Day QUACKS, unlike the leach and bleed days of old. Oh and by the way George W demanded a servant BLEED him you fool! LOL @ U! "No one is quite sure what killed Washington. He was in fine health at age 67 when he contracted hoarseness and a sore throat a few days after helping to move a snow-mired carriage near his home. There was little alarm until he awoke in the middle of the night with difficulty breathing, almost unable to talk. A doctor was summoned, but Washington did not wait, ordering an employee to bleed him. Eventually, Washington requested no further bleeding be performed." Now then back to the original post. Where on earth is a walk in client being riped off> When he or she walks into a Chiroquactors office. IF (the BIG IF here folks) you HEAL NOTHING, YOU CAN RENDER NO REAL LASTING RELIEF FOR YOUR CLIENTS then your a QUACK! Next one to post is a QUACK! LOL

One BIG difference here is ChiroQuactic is a direct result of Modern Day QUACKS, unlike the leach and bleed days of old. Oh and by the way George W demanded a servant BLEED him you fool! LOL @ U! "No one is quite sure what killed Washington. He was in fine health at age 67 when he contracted hoarseness and a sore throat a few days after helping to move a snow-mired carriage near his home. There was little alarm until he awoke in the middle of the night with difficulty breathing, almost unable to talk. A doctor was summoned, but Washington did not wait, ordering an employee to bleed him. Eventually, Washington requested no further bleeding be performed." Now then back to the original post. Where on earth is a walk in client being riped off> When he or she walks into a Chiroquactors office. IF (the BIG IF here folks) you HEAL NOTHING, YOU CAN RENDER NO REAL LASTING RELIEF FOR YOUR CLIENTS then your a QUACK! Next one to post is a QUACK! LOL

One BIG difference here is ChiroQuactic is a direct result of Modern Day QUACKS, unlike the leach and bleed days of old. Oh and by the way George W demanded a servant BLEED him you fool! LOL @ U! "No one is quite sure what killed Washington. He was in fine health at age 67 when he contracted hoarseness and a sore throat a few days after helping to move a snow-mired carriage near his home. There was little alarm until he awoke in the middle of the night with difficulty breathing, almost unable to talk. A doctor was summoned, but Washington did not wait, ordering an employee to bleed him. Eventually, Washington requested no further bleeding be performed." Now then back to the original post. Where on earth is a walk in client being riped off> When he or she walks into a Chiroquactors office. IF (the BIG IF here folks) you HEAL NOTHING, YOU CAN RENDER NO REAL LASTING RELIEF FOR YOUR CLIENTS then your a QUACK! Next one to post is a QUACK! LOL

First of all, the name is Kristian, which is a male name. Second, I never said there was NOTHING we could cure. I said we can not cure ANY thing (meaning all diseases). There are plenty of injuries that our treatment can improve... If you go to the origins of any medical profession, there were crazy things being said and done. We all grow on the past. Just look at the 1950s...MDs PRESCRIBED CIGARETTES for stress. In George Washington's case, it was his doctors who actually killed him through blood letting. And remember, the pres has access to the BEST doctors. So should today's MDs be held responsible for what their predecessors did? And Steve, we are trained to perform hernia checks. If you were a minor, then you parents should have given consent for treatment.

Kristian you already posted you can not cure anyone you own words it is out of the scope of practice. So why defend quackness? People READ the ORIGINS of Chiropractic! Kristian yes or no did chiropractic start with quacks who professed X-Rays were a cure or MANY ailments? YES or NO PLEASE (She has yet to really answer that simple just pointing out how she trying to defend QUACKS)

I had a 3rd year chiroprator student at L.A.C.C. once tell me to drop my pants and underwear so he could check me for any hernias.He said this was part of the normal exam. I am now wondering if this was a normal check that D.C. do, or if he was just trying to see my privates. By the way, I was a minor at the time this too place.Any D.C. out there please let me know. P.S. I went in for back pain not anything else.

This is just an observation and please correct me if I'm wrong, but in brief search of these "Chiropractic Colleges", there are no major or state universities that offer Chiropractic courses. If this is true, I wonder why not? They seem to be closer to a vocational institute than an actual university or college. Just my take, but I look at it more as a form of alternitive medicine than anything else. It also doesn't seem right that Chiropracters retain the title of Doctor. Then again, that's just my take on it. If I were to be seriously injured, I'd have 100 times more confidence in a dentist or podiatrist coming to my aid than a chiropracter.

Before you walk into this trap with a quack. a) Did you doctor give you any time frame for the meds? In other words is it just to end the spasm cycle. b) Did they get you any physical therapy (a PT can do what a chiro can do and they work with your doctor. c) Have you had an MRI yet? Because a Chiro MAY be able to relieve some of the pain for a while. That is how they HOOK you in until your insurance is all eaten up. If your Dr has prescribed pain killers strong enough to make you drool your messed up beyond chiropractic. Ask your Doctor if you are a good candidate for chiropractic.

Good points. One thing though, I was not arguing that my treatment was better. I was merely defending it against the accusation of quackery.

I'm not a Doctor but I stayed at a Holiday Inn. She already reported she can't cure anyone from anything. So the rest here is just for fun. DC are all quacks 100% have been from day one. Ever read the history of Chiropractic?

I'm not a Doctor but I stayed at a Holiday Inn. She already reported she can't cure anyone from anything. So the rest here is just for fun. DC are all quacks 100% have been from day one. Ever read the history of Chiropractic?

I'm not a Doctor but I stayed at a Holiday Inn. She already reported she can't cure anyone from anything. So the rest here is just for fun. DC are all quacks 100% have been from day one. Ever read the history of Chiropractic?

I have always been leery of Chiroprators; however, I injured my lower back a month ago lifting a pressure washer into my car. Pain shoots down my legs and I have a constant dull ache in my lower back. Medical doctors prescribe meds but I don't like falling asleep at the office drooling on myself. Is this something a chiroprator can remedy as the MD's aren't making it go away? If so, my attitude towards chiroprators will certainly shift to the positive side of the spectrum!

She had her surgery 2 years ago with NO RELIEF. She had been getting traditional therapy with NO RELIEF. She stopped and started seeing me. She got relief and it has lasted OVER A MONTH. The ortho and PT treatment did not give her more than ONE DAY of pain relief. Right now I cannot believe that someone as ignorant as you was able to even read a book let alone edit one. I routinely get people in my office with failed CTS surgeries that I have helped. How? The MD misdiagnosed the problem and treated the wrong area in these cases. These people may have had hand symptoms, but there were multiple crush sites along the course of the nerve, such as at the cubital tunnel, in the musculature of the shoulder and/or neck, and usually some faulty movement patterns and muscle shortening with myofascial adhesions. Releasing only the wrist did not address these other sites which I and most of my colleagues do. That is why we get great results with CTS.

HELLO, Listen to yourselfs, you guys are acting like little kids fighting over a toy. I'm a better doctor, no I am" Why don't the three of you grow up. There are good doctors and bad doctors in every field of medicine. If a patient get some relief from getting and adjustment thats great. I think we would all agree the patient is better off with and adjustment if it makes them feel better then getting hooked on pain-killers from the M.D. We all know that some chiroprators claim to able too treat some medical conditions that they have no bussiness saying they can treat. But just because there is no phyiscal proof that a D.C. can or can't help a paient with a disc problem doesn't mean there treatment doesn't work. It' would be the same as if and M.D was treatng a patient for depression and precribed a rx treatment of paxil 40mg q.d for 60 days. if after the 60 days the patient cames back and informs the doctor there feeling much better and the depression is gone wouldn't that doctor take credit for curing that patients depression? I think they would. Now what if that M.D . was ask to prove that they cured that patients depression would they be able medicaly prove this cure? No, I don't think so. Reason, aside from having that patient claim they are cured there would be no medical proof that the paxil the M.D gave the patient worked. So should we call the Medical doctors treatment horseshit or quackery just because there is no medical proof besided the patients claim that the paxil worked? I would think you guys would have better things to do they fight about who's treatments work better.

Are you sure one WHOLE month? WOW! "I have had one carpal tunnel sufferer who had been to a well respected ortho for treatment for the last 5 years with no improvement even post surgery. Using Cold Laser combined with myofascial release and adjustment, as well a nutritional approaches and stretches/exercises, she is now symptom free, and has been for month." Rolling on floor laughing out loud. Ever occure to you that this is a result of post op PT not ciro-quack-tic?

After having been to the web page you referenced, I see what it is that you and Barrat and Homolo are criticizing. You are criticizing the DCs who try to claim they can cure any and everything with an adjustment, and who follow the teachings of the Palmers as a religious dogma. These doctors are also known as "straight" chiropractors. I do not align myself with that school of practice, and most of my colleagues do not practice in this manner anymore. In fact, much of the literature that is referenced on your site is from 30 years ago or older. In my office, I perform a thorough examination which utilizes procedures that conform with AMA guidelines, formulate a differentail diagnosis, and a treatment plan that is targeted for that diagnosis. I work closely with other specialists and consult with them on the cases we have. I complete more than the required hours of continuing ed per year so that I can continue to stay on the cutting edge. And, I am not an anomoly in my profession. Most of the docs that I meet at the seminar are just like me...honest...ethical...evidence based...educated. So I encourage you, Karlton, to not have the bad docs held up as the standard for us all. Also, if you look into recent issues of Spine and the JMPT, you will see that more and more research has continued to emerge to support the efficacy of our treatment, and that show that our patients have higher customer satisfaction ratings than other forms of treatment, including tradtional medical care.

See you simply can't give a simple yes or no. We both know the answer is NO, so why not be honest and admit all DCs are nothing but unsupervised back crackers who do nothing to cure anyone as in a QUACK that simply drains the patient of insurance funds. By the way I am so sorry for you now that the workman comp laws have changed in California, no wonder you have so much PC time rather then DC time. ROFLOL!

First of all, what is your definition of "cured." In your opinion, is that to mean A) that the disc is no longer degenerated or herniated, or B) that they are no longer symptomatic. If A), then to the best of my knowledge by traditional manipulation no. (although research on the DRX spinal decompression unit looks promising) If B), then absolutely. Myself included. I was recommended for surgery with radicular pain and paresthesias. I month of chiro tx took ALL the symptoms away. And now, a monthly maintenance visit has kept it from coming back. Additionally, I have dozens of patients who have experienced the same thing. The come in occasionally on their own schedule because THEY feel it helps keep their symptoms from coming back. I have not sold them on the idea or used fear to keep them coming. But they are now fine, and also avoided the surgeon's knife. I have done the same for cervicogenic headache suffers who after one or a few treatments say they no longer get the headaches. One girl had been suffering since she was 16 with daily headaches, and after one treatment they stopped and have not come back in 2 years. I have had one carpal tunnel sufferer who had been to a well respected ortho for treatment for the last 5 years with no improvement even post surgery. Using Cold Laser combined with myofascial release and adjustment, as well a nutritional approaches and stretches/exercises, she is now symptom free, and has been for month. I could continue on, but I won't. Again, if you want to hear my patients on CD or read therir stories, give me your email address and I will send it to you.

Please answer the following in YES or NO format. A) Have you or any DC ever cured a patient with a herniated or degenerative disc? Simple enough for you? No long wind answers just Yes or No.

I went to your website, Karlton, and I noticed an interesting thing... Out of the 7 DCs in the whole state that your beloved authors recommend, one of them is , Dr Steven Svastis. Another interesting point is that your author says he does not believe in laser therapy (which a recent research study showed to be effective in 75.6 percent of carpal tunnel patients), yet this same Dr Svastis says on his website that he does laser treatments. Interesting occurrence

Obviously by your juvenile behavior your are just some angry and lonely guy who needs attention or to feel important by trying to get a rise out of people, and not someone with anything meaningful to say. As for answering your questions, you need to post some before they can be answered. All you do is blather on about quacks but don't ask questions or post anything other than nonsense. At least when you copied a book line by line you made some bit of sense, but you still did not post any questions. Again I thank you for posting because you actually do my profession a favor. How? By showing through your posts that you are not logical person but one who is obviously irrational, you lend even more credibility to us and demonstrate that the people who hold to your beliefs are nothing more than 'conspiracy theory' type lunatics left over from the days before we won the Wilkes v the AMA Supreme Court case in 1987 for dispersing negative smear propaganda like this. Consumers today are too savvy to buy into your rhetoric, especially when research and case studies keep supporting what we do as safe, cost effective, and outcomes effective. So unless you have some meaningful question or point to make besides just some quack remarks, I won't waste any time casting my pearls before you the swine...

Kristian until you answer the questions I asked in a straight out fashion, your a QUACK IMHO! Now if you can answer the questions please do so so we can debunk your quack "logic". Do you need me to ask them once more? Stop acting like a bag of Quack Wind and answer them please.

Thank you for the balanced statement Steve. And thank you Karlton for writing such childish posts to try to discredit my profession. You, Karlton, manage to show the kind of person you are by shouting 'quack' instead of discussing. In your "quote", you showed that the number of stroke from manipulation was around 1 in 400,000 to 1 in 3,000,000. Don't forget that in those stats you also quoted that almost half of the manipulations in your study were NOT performed by chiropractors. The stat of 1 in 3 million is roughly your chance of getting hit by lightning. Additionally, you did not state the finding that it is more frequent for a person to suffer a stroke in a beauty salon because of the position of extreme extension that is maintained. A patient can be screened for the possibility of stroke simpl by performing a series of tests called George's test, which involves auscultating the vertebral arteries for bruits, checking blood pressure, and placing the person in and extended and rotated position and looking for nystagmus or nausea or tinnitus. It is quite interesting that you will call my profession full of quacks for the rare injury you describe. What then do you think of MDs, when PROPERLY PRESCRIBED medications kill over 250,000 people per year? Do you think that they are all quacks? What about the fact that in a recent hospital study that they found that a large percentage of medical interns did not know how to properly use a stethoscope? Does that make them all quacks because of a few idiots? I know there are some real idiots in my profession...they are in every profession. There are stories of surgeons who botch surgeries too. The first chiro I went to had a tumor on his tonsil and the surgeon removed the wrong one and the cancer spread and killed him. Are all surgeons to be held responsible for the actions of this incompetent person? What about the doctors who were getting spanish speaking patients in Orange county, CA to come in for unnecessary surgeries, like getting a kidney removed, so they could get big reimbursement from the insurance company? They were paying these people a few thousand dollars for signing up for the unneeded operation. Thank God they got caught! But should this cast a shadow on all the honest MDs out there? Karlton, you can continue to spread hatred and ignorance, but eventually the truth will win out. Our patients keep talking to other people. Every week I get new people into my office who have never been to a chiro before but who have heard good things. Every week I get people better, and they send new ones. Alternative healthcare is booming because it works and is not as risky as traditional treatments. Just look at the Vioxx fiasco. What do you think about that? The FDA new the risk. So did the drug companies. Do you call them quacks?

I really enjoyed the information about D.C.'s. I know of patient at the former LACC who's brain stem was repurted during and adjustment. The only thing about your response I disagree with is your statement about ALL chiropractors being quacks.I can assure you that There are a few nice ones out there that do care about their patients and if there not able to help them they will refer them to a medical doctor. I work for one as a xray tech a few years ago.we had this one patient that was having a lot of lower back pain so the D.C had me take some xrays of this female patients L-spine (Low back)on the xray there was a large mass in her lower lumbar spine area. He didn't try to treat her,Instead he called the patients personal M.D and told the M.D. what he found, we copied the xrays and sent them over to the M.D. office. The patient had the tumor removed a few weeks later and is doing fine after that. I really think that chiropractor help saved that patients life by identifying the mass on the xray and sending the patient for the correct treatment. SO don't put everyone D.C in the same boat, one might save your life one day.

Here is a great quote from Quack Watch "Don't Let Chiropractors Fool You Stephen Barrett, M.D. Chiropractors claim their profession was founded in 1895 when Daniel David Palmer restored the hearing of a deaf janitor by "adjusting" a bump on his spine. Soon afterward, he concluded that misaligned bones ("subluxations") interfered with the body's expression of "Innate Intelligence" -- the "Soul, Spirit, or Spark of Life" that controlled the healing process. Although philosophy and treatment vary greatly from one practitioner to another, most of today's 60,000-or-so chiropractors can be classified as "straights" or "mixers." Straights tend to cling to Palmer's doctrine that most diseases are caused by misaligned spinal bones ("subluxations") correctable by spinal adjustment. Some straights, however, maintain that they neither diagnose nor treat diseases, but confine themselves to detecting and correcting vertebral subluxations. Mixers acknowledge that factors such as germs and hormones play a role in disease, but they tend to regard mechanical disturbances of the nervous system as the underlying cause of lowered resistance to disease. Louis Sportelli, D.C., who later became chairman of the American Chiropractic Association's board of governors, expressed this concept in a pamphlet called "What Kinds of Conditions Do Chiropractors Treat?" which he distributed in the 1980s. The pamphlet stated: The doctor of chiropractic directs his attention to the spine, searching for an area which is deviant from normal. The deviation or malpositioning of a spinal vertebra may cause a neurological imbalance within the body, setting the stage for lowered resistance, and subsequently a disease process. . . . Chiropractic is based on the premise that every gland, organ and cell of the body needs a nerve supply to function properly. Therefore it would seem logical that malfunctions in these areas would also respond to chiropractic adjustments. It is with this basic thought in mind that the answer to, "What can you treat, doctor?" could be as varied and vast as the nervous system itself. In addition to spinal manipulation, mixers may prescribe nutrient concoctions, homeopathic products, and various types of physiotherapy (heat, cold, traction, exercise, massage, and ultrasound). Straights tend to disparage medical diagnosis, claiming that examination of the spine is the proper way for chiropractors to analyze their patients. Mixers are more likely to diagnose medical conditions in addition to spinal abnormalities, and to refer patients to medical practitioners for treatment. Some practitioners claim that chiropractic treatment is effective against nearly the entire range of human ailments. A small percentage of chiropractors reject Palmer's dogma and treat only musculoskeletal problems. I do not believe that spinal manipulation is effective against other problems. Research Findings During the past few years, two reports about the treatment of low-back pain have placed chiropractic in a favorable light. One, issued by the RAND Corporation, concluded that spinal manipulation was appropriate for some cases of low-back pain. The other, produced by the Agency for Health Care Policy and Research (AHCPR), judged manipulation useful for controlling symptoms while awaiting the spontaneous recovery that occurs within a month in most patients with low-back problems. Although chiropractors have promoted these reports as endorsements of chiropractic, they are not. They merely support the use of manipulation in carefully selected patients. Only a few of the research studies on which their conclusions were based involved manipulation by chiropractors; most were done by medical doctors and physical therapists whose practices are not identical to those of chiropractors. Most chiropractors manipulate the vast majority of patients who walk through their door, some use techniques that have not been studied scientifically, and many urge all of their patients to undergo monthly or even weekly "preventive maintenance" visits throughout their life. In addition, many chiropractors emphasize a technique that is more vigorous (and therefore less safe) than the controlled manipulation used by other practitioners. The only places where "chiropractic" and "chiropractors" are mentioned in the body of the AHCPR report are in the passages about the make-up of the AHCPR expert panel. X-rays and Medicare Most chiropractors claim that x-rays help them locate the "subluxations" that D.D. Palmer envisioned. But they do not agree among themselves about what subluxations are. Some chiropractors believe they are displaced bones that can be seen on x-rays and can be put back in place by spinal adjustments. Others define subluxations vaguely or say they do not necessarily show on x-rays. But what chiropractors contend about x-rays also depends upon who asks and how the question is posed. Chiropractic coverage under Medicare, which began in 1973, was limited to manual manipulation of the spine for the treatment of "subluxations demonstrated by x-rays to exist." To enable payment, federal officials accepted an elaborate chiropractic "definition" of subluxations for which payment could be made. During the mid-1980s, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services' Office of the Inspector General (OIG) surveyed 145 chiropractors by telephone about their billing practices. Eighty-four percent said that some subluxations do not show on x-rays. Nearly half responded that when billing Medicare, they "could always find something" (by x-ray or physical examination) to justify the diagnosis, or they actually tailored the diagnosis to obtain reimbursement. The OIG's report noted that chiropractic manipulation was the ninth most frequently billed procedure under Medicare during 1983. In 1997, after many years of intense lobbying, chiropractors persuaded Congress to remove the mandatory x-ray provision. The Balanced Budget Act of 1997 eliminates the requirement as of January 1, 2000, and requires the Secretary of Health and Human Services to develop and implement utilization guidelines for chiropractic coverage when a subluxation has not been demonstrated by X-ray. The new policy is expected to increase the number of claims Medicare pays for chiropractic services. Primary-Care Providers? Managed-care plans provide unlimited access to one's primary physician, but specialized care must be authorized by that physician -- usually a family practitioner. Chiropractors are worried that if they cannot be accessed directly, their income will suffer. Moreover, in communities where managed care predominates, nonparticipating chiropractors could lose their ability to earn a living. Chiropractic leaders are attempting to deal with this threat by claiming that chiropractors are primary-care providers to whom patients should be given access without referral. In line with this viewpoint, most chiropractors claim they can diagnose conditions within their scope and refer the rest to appropriate providers. However, clinical training in chiropractic schools is vastly inferior to that in medical schools. Whereas medical school faculties are large and contain experts in virtually every aspect of medical practice, chiropractic schools have little or no input from medical experts. Whereas medical students see patients encompassing the full range of disease, most patients seen by chiropractic students have musculoskeletal problems. Although some of their courses are based on standard medical textbooks, chiropractic students lack the clinical experience necessary to make the information meaningful. Chiropractic schooling in such subjects as pediatrics, obstetrics, and gynecology is usually limited to classroom instruction with little or no actual patient contact and no experience with hospitalized patients. One school, for example, has used only rubber models to teach students how to perform pelvic and rectal examinations! The thousand-member Federation of Straight Chiropractors and Organizations (FSCO) asserts that chiropractic practice should be limited to the analysis and correction of "subluxations." FSCO asserts that chiropractors are neither licensed nor trained to diagnose medical problems or make medical referrals. Large percentages of chiropractors do not believe that immunizations are effective and do not recommend them to their patients [1,2]. For these reasons and more, the claim that chiropractors are generally qualified to be "primary-care providers" is absurd. Spinal Roulette? In 1992, researchers at the Stanford Stroke Center asked 486 California members of the American Academy of Neurology how many patients they had seen during the previous two years who had suffered a stroke within 24 hours of neck manipulation by a chiropractor. The survey was sponsored by the American Heart Association. One hundred seventy-seven neurologists reported treating 55 such patients, all of whom were between the ages of 21 and 60. One patient had died, and 48 were left with permanent neurologic deficits such as slurred speech, inability to arrange words properly, and vertigo. The usual cause of the strokes was thought to be tearing of the vertebral artery walls [3]. A recent review of 116 articles published between 1925 and 1997 found 177 cases of neck injury associated with neck manipulation, at least 60% of which was done by chiropractors [4]. One patient proven to have been killed by neck manipulation was Kristi A. Bedenbaugh, a medical office administrator and former beauty queen from Little Mountain, South Carolina. In 1993, Kristi consulted a chiropractor seeking relief from the pain of sinus headaches. During her second visit, she suffered a stroke immediately after the chiropractor manipulated her neck. She died three days later, one day before her 25th birthday. The autopsy revealed that the manipulation had split the inside walls of both of her vertebral arteries, causing the walls to balloon and block the blood supply to the lower part of her brain. Additional studies concluded that blood clots had formed on the days the manipulation took place. In 1997, the State Board of Chiropractic Examiners of South Carolina issued a consent order in which the chiropractor agreed to pay a $1,000 fine and to acquire 12 hours of continuing education credits in the areas of neurological disorders and emergency response. Reader Comment How common are strokes following neck manipulation? Nobody knows. No clinical research has addressed this problem, and chiropractic malpractice insurance companies have refused to make their data public [5]. Most speculations run from 1 in 400,000 to 1 in 3,000,000. But when manipulations are done without valid reason -- as they often are -- no complication is excusable. References Colley F. Chiropractic perspectives on immunization. Dynamic Chiropractic 11(2):32,38, 1993. Anderson R. Chiropractors for and against immunization. Medical Anthropology 12:169-186, 1990. Lee KP and others. Neurologic complications following chiropractic manipulation: a survey of California neurologists. Neurology 45:1213-1215, 1995. Di Fabio R. Manipulation of the cervical spine: Risks and benefits. Physical Therapy 79:50-65, 1999. Barrett S. Chiropractic's Dirty Secret: Neck Manipulation and Strokes. Quackwatch, revised May 11, 2002. For Additional Information To what extent can chiropractors help people? Does it ever make sense to seek chiropractic care? If so, how can a reliable chiropractor be found? These questions -- which are not simple to answer -- are thoroughly discussed in Chiropractic: The Victim's Perspective (1995), written by George J. Magner, III, and Inside Chiropractic: A Patient's Guide (1999), by Samuel Homola, D.C. Both were edited by me and published by Prometheus Books. Together they provide the most detailed analysis of the chiropractic marketplace ever published. Comprehensive information is also available on Chirobase, our skeptical guide to chiropractic history, theories, and current practices."

Answer the questions QUACK! YOU and YOUR QUACK TREATMENTS have not cured a single person. By your own words that is out of the scope of your practice you are a Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack. Clear enough for you Quack? I love the line where you say you have to take the same classes as any MD. Well you could put a duck in the classroom that does not make them on the same level. :) QUACK You may think your not a back cracking Quack but if your a DC you are. DO NOT USE CHIRO-QUACKS they are all RIP OFFS!

Answer the questions QUACK! YOU and YOUR QUACK TREATMENTS have not cured a single person. By your own words that is out of the scope of your practice you are a Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack. Clear enough for you Quack? I love the line where you say you have to take the same classes as any MD. Well you could put a duck in the classroom that does not make them on the same level. :) QUACK You may think your not a back cracking Quack but if your a DC you are. DO NOT USE CHIRO-QUACKS they are all RIP OFFS!

Answer the questions QUACK! YOU and YOUR QUACK TREATMENTS have not cured a single person. By your own words that is out of the scope of your practice you are a Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack Quack. Clear enough for you Quack? I love the line where you say you have to take the same classes as any MD. Well you could put a duck in the classroom that does not make them on the same level. :) QUACK You may think your not a back cracking Quack but if your a DC you are. DO NOT USE CHIRO-QUACKS they are all RIP OFFS!

What does your "quack quack" line mean? And as far as your questions for "any DC to answer," please explain the logic the leads to the conclusion that if we state we have cured any patients that we are a "quack." You are completely entitled to your opinion, but can you back it up with ANY FACTS or research? I can back up the proof for my profession with research. It can be found in the journal Spine in the 2003 edition which published a research study which suggested that chiro treatment was more effective than medications, acupuncture, or traditional therapy. Additionally, the Rand study showed again that for the treatment of low back pain chiropractic was more effective than any other form of treatment. But most powerfully, I was saved from a lifetime of pain or from surgery by the chiropractor that I went to. He so powerfully helped my life that I decided to become one myself. So if saving someone from pain and giving them their life back is your definition of a quack, then call me Donald Duck, as I have done so for many of my patients. So many in fact that they have VOLUNTEERED to do unsolicited and non-reimbursed testimonials for me. I have a CD with their stories on it, or you can give me your email and I will send you the link to my webpage where you can see them for yourself. So please, do some research and reading. Peer reviewed scientific studies are coming out in support of our work. I suggest you look at the journal Spine (which is well respected and NOT a chiropractic journal), and also the Journal of Manipulative and Therapeutic Physiologics.

Any DC please answer the following questions: 1) How many herniated discs have you been able to cure? 2 )How many patients have you been able to cure? If the answer is greater to or equal to zero then your a QUACK and a fraud! Question that goes back to the original "Rip Off Report", how is a Quack taking another Quack's walk in a rip off? Answer when the patient needed a DOCTOR!

ALL hospital systems have bad debt from underinsured/non-insured patients, as well as certain healthcare plans (Healthnet, for one) not paying the contracted rate for services rendered. Actually, some time ago, the John Muir Healthcare system stopped taking Healthnet for some time, as did some of the other groups in the East Bay. Naturally, it costs more to do business in California (who has some of the highest Worker's Compensation rates in the United States, despite "Ah-nold"s reform), Salaries are higher as well, due to the cost of living out here, whether it be Santa Barbara or the poor areas, like San Pablo (the site of a very contentious nurses strike). If we are talking degrees, I am a Nurse Practitioner with a D.N.sc with emphasis in Health Policy, as well as having a M.S. N. I personally prefer patient care as opposed to pencil-pushing.

ALL hospital systems have bad debt from underinsured/non-insured patients, as well as certain healthcare plans (Healthnet, for one) not paying the contracted rate for services rendered. Actually, some time ago, the John Muir Healthcare system stopped taking Healthnet for some time, as did some of the other groups in the East Bay. Naturally, it costs more to do business in California (who has some of the highest Worker's Compensation rates in the United States, despite "Ah-nold"s reform), Salaries are higher as well, due to the cost of living out here, whether it be Santa Barbara or the poor areas, like San Pablo (the site of a very contentious nurses strike). If we are talking degrees, I am a Nurse Practitioner with a D.N.sc with emphasis in Health Policy, as well as having a M.S. N. I personally prefer patient care as opposed to pencil-pushing.

ALL hospital systems have bad debt from underinsured/non-insured patients, as well as certain healthcare plans (Healthnet, for one) not paying the contracted rate for services rendered. Actually, some time ago, the John Muir Healthcare system stopped taking Healthnet for some time, as did some of the other groups in the East Bay. Naturally, it costs more to do business in California (who has some of the highest Worker's Compensation rates in the United States, despite "Ah-nold"s reform), Salaries are higher as well, due to the cost of living out here, whether it be Santa Barbara or the poor areas, like San Pablo (the site of a very contentious nurses strike). If we are talking degrees, I am a Nurse Practitioner with a D.N.sc with emphasis in Health Policy, as well as having a M.S. N. I personally prefer patient care as opposed to pencil-pushing.

ALL hospital systems have bad debt from underinsured/non-insured patients, as well as certain healthcare plans (Healthnet, for one) not paying the contracted rate for services rendered. Actually, some time ago, the John Muir Healthcare system stopped taking Healthnet for some time, as did some of the other groups in the East Bay. Naturally, it costs more to do business in California (who has some of the highest Worker's Compensation rates in the United States, despite "Ah-nold"s reform), Salaries are higher as well, due to the cost of living out here, whether it be Santa Barbara or the poor areas, like San Pablo (the site of a very contentious nurses strike). If we are talking degrees, I am a Nurse Practitioner with a D.N.sc with emphasis in Health Policy, as well as having a M.S. N. I personally prefer patient care as opposed to pencil-pushing.

Thank you, Steve It is true that it was a stretch to compare the chiros not a dr statement to racism, but it was done to show that it can be very hurtful to those of us who love what we do and love helping people yet get persecuted for it. You see, it strikes a nerve for many of us because the American Medical Association did just that to us for many years. As recently as the early 70's, an MD could get his license revoked in some states just for associating with a DC. In 1987, we won a Supreme Court case against the AMA that proved that they had set out to discredit and destroy our profession. So I hope I did not offend you either, its just that the words brought up these old bones... And I know that kinds of DC practices you are talking about. I used to work at one and got disgusted so I left. When it comes to treating a PI case in my office, it is all evidence based, not insurance based. I perform computerized Range of motion and muscle testing to establish a baseline for the injury. Also, the patient is given standardized questionnaires to assess how much the injury has affected their activities of daily living. My treatments are based on 4 to 6 week trials that must show objective improvement in ROM and muscle symmetry as well as ADLs to continue with care. If there is no significant improvement, the then patient is released. The attorney has no say in the matter because I do not get patients from them. So I havent really had a problem with that in my office. I have had a few work ccmp and PI patients ask me to juice the bill or say they were coming in when they did not so there were no holes in their treatment. I told them that if they wanted that done that they should find another doctor. And as for the percentage of people who stay after they are done after a case, it is closer to 25% who adopt a maintenance program after a work comp or PI case is done. I still consider that low, but not as low as the 1% you estimated. Part of the reason for the low level is that most of my patients are pain free at the end of release. This rate is higher if you accept them returning within a year of treatment but not in the immediate 2 months following release. I have many former accident patients who come in to see me 1 or even 5 years after an accident, who do have to now pay out of pocket. This is why I have been able to be succesful without marketing to attorneys or big yellow pages ads. I have a very high rate of retention and my practice is 90% referral from previous happy patients. I think that I have this high rate because I do not make false promises, I deliver a good product, and I teach people how to minimize their need for me by instructing them on stretches and exercises, nutrition and supplementation, and also relaxation techniques. Thank you for asking and also for your kind response. :)

Tenet had 40 hospitals in California - As I recall we have sold/closed 14 - It is called CASH INFUSION - Tenet still maintains hospitals in the California area - Yes there were several doctors who committed Medicare/Medi-Cal fraud in Redding but that does not mean that the company bailed out - I have seen most of the records pertaining to this situation and know the circumstances to the company leaving California 1. It costs too much money to have a center in Santa Barbara 2. If you read the business section in the newspaper Tenet lost money due to Bad Debts Therefore it is in the best interest of the company to relocate to the Dallas headquarters to save money and to maintain the standards of quality health care - I want to make a note - I have a degree both in Business Administration and Social Work

Kristian, I would agree and think the Malpractice rates would be low for Chiroprators. Seeing how it would be very hard to hurt someone when the majority of your treatments consist of heat/ice packs, tens unit,activator, massage, and of course the famous adjustment. I like the palmer adjustments. With your treatments not being very invasive the risk of being sued should be very small.I would guess P.T malpractice rates are low just like yours. The only risk I could think of would be a bad adjustment or misdiagnoses of the x-rays. I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings and I know you did go to school for many years and I also understand how important it is to you to be called and thought of as a doctor.I do think your statement comparing your profession and people that are racist is a big stretch. A person is not born a chiropractor unlike each person that is born into a certain race. If you really feel deep down that you are really helping people get better and have a better quality of life then thats great; Keep up the good work.I think you really know if patient is truely coming to you because there in pain or just want to run up a bill to give to there laywer So the insurance will settle for more money. 3 times the bills is what I have heard every D.C. say is the standard. 1/3 patient, 1/3 D.C. and 1/3 laywer. I want to ask you one question. How many accident patients come back to you for treatment once their case is settled and if they wanted more treatment they have to pay it out of there own pocket. I bet it's not even 1%

Kristian, I would agree and think the Malpractice rates would be low for Chiroprators. Seeing how it would be very hard to hurt someone when the majority of your treatments consist of heat/ice packs, tens unit,activator, massage, and of course the famous adjustment. I like the palmer adjustments. With your treatments not being very invasive the risk of being sued should be very small.I would guess P.T malpractice rates are low just like yours. The only risk I could think of would be a bad adjustment or misdiagnoses of the x-rays. I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings and I know you did go to school for many years and I also understand how important it is to you to be called and thought of as a doctor.I do think your statement comparing your profession and people that are racist is a big stretch. A person is not born a chiropractor unlike each person that is born into a certain race. If you really feel deep down that you are really helping people get better and have a better quality of life then thats great; Keep up the good work.I think you really know if patient is truely coming to you because there in pain or just want to run up a bill to give to there laywer So the insurance will settle for more money. 3 times the bills is what I have heard every D.C. say is the standard. 1/3 patient, 1/3 D.C. and 1/3 laywer. I want to ask you one question. How many accident patients come back to you for treatment once their case is settled and if they wanted more treatment they have to pay it out of there own pocket. I bet it's not even 1%

Kristian, I would agree and think the Malpractice rates would be low for Chiroprators. Seeing how it would be very hard to hurt someone when the majority of your treatments consist of heat/ice packs, tens unit,activator, massage, and of course the famous adjustment. I like the palmer adjustments. With your treatments not being very invasive the risk of being sued should be very small.I would guess P.T malpractice rates are low just like yours. The only risk I could think of would be a bad adjustment or misdiagnoses of the x-rays. I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings and I know you did go to school for many years and I also understand how important it is to you to be called and thought of as a doctor.I do think your statement comparing your profession and people that are racist is a big stretch. A person is not born a chiropractor unlike each person that is born into a certain race. If you really feel deep down that you are really helping people get better and have a better quality of life then thats great; Keep up the good work.I think you really know if patient is truely coming to you because there in pain or just want to run up a bill to give to there laywer So the insurance will settle for more money. 3 times the bills is what I have heard every D.C. say is the standard. 1/3 patient, 1/3 D.C. and 1/3 laywer. I want to ask you one question. How many accident patients come back to you for treatment once their case is settled and if they wanted more treatment they have to pay it out of there own pocket. I bet it's not even 1%

Your really missing the point here my friend.I don't hate chiropractors, that wasn't the issue here. The issue was the chiroprators that go around acting like their medical doctors and claiming too treating medical problems that are out of there scope of practice. AS I have stated before I have been treated by a chiroprator before and left on good terms after six months of treatment. He did his best and thats all I expected. As I have stated also, I have worked with 5 different chiropractors including ones the I would have too say billings was very very Questionable. Examble, having his billing clerk bill for x-ray under the M.D.'S name so they could collect more money than for billing under the D.C for the same x-rays, also billing the same way if the insurance wouldn't pay for D.C x-ray but would paid if the M.D order them. Billing for P.T. treatment under the M.D."S lic if chiropractic treatment wasn't covered. I told them I wouldn't work for and office the operated like this.I was only there a very short time (2 weeks) but I did conforted the D.C. with what the billing clerk was saying.I told him I was sorry but I was quiting because of the way he was doing his billing and I wanted no part of workiing in a place like this. I also called the state insurance comission,and medicare to let them know what was going on (this was like 10 years ago). I have also seen and heard from students from the former L.A.C.C.who's admission councilor would tell the new incoming student about all the money they can make as D.C.I use to live less than one block from the school and knew many people that worked there. I seen the pain after gradution of many of the new D.C. not being able to find jobs.So when you ask me why I do't love Chiropratic I hope you can understand. Kristian.by the way, This is also why LACC is not called LACC anymore. They drop the word Chiropractic out of there school name after almost 100 years. I wish you nothing but good luck in life as a Doctor of Chiropractic and I am sure you are one of the few good honset D.C. out there. One bit of advice. Alway stay within your scope of pratice, if a patient is willing to sue for a minor accident that same person won't think twice about sueing you as there D.C. if they think they can collect some money. Not all patients that come in are real patient, some have been sent in to test your honesty. Peace and love, Steve

The others, I couldn't tell you, as I did not work for them. Part of it may have been the financial losses from the various labor strikes, including the strike by CNA (which I did not agree with and many of the nurses did manage to strike their way out of a job), Unfortunately with Tenet's bailing out of California, patient's choices are becoming limited in Northern California, as that leaves Kaiser, Sutter, and to a limited extent, Catholic Healthcare West as the "big three", and Kaiser is the only one considered "labor friendly" up here. You have to admit that the Medicare scandal sure didn't help Tenet, at least in California.

Steve I am sorry that you are so bitter over your experience. You ask for one case where chiropractic "cured" a problem. My best example is my story. I was injured playing sports, had a disc herniation at L5-S1 with a grade II spondylolisthesis. Radicular pain into both legs that was severe and shooting. I was recommended for surgery by an ortho group that my sports team referred me to. He said I needed spinal fusion, a discectomy, and that I would still be in pain for the rest of my life even with the surgery. I was told I would have to learn to live with it, and that if I tried to remain active it could cripple me. Thankfully I was referred to a friend's chiro. I was scared because I had heard stories from people like you. But surgery scared me more, what with the statistics on how often it did no better, and from seeing family friends who were now more crippled than before. Before I go on, I do want to say that I am not attacking surgery, as of course there are times when it is indicated... After a couple of months of treatment and rehab, I was fine, and am still fine 20 years later. No radiculopathies or pain. Do I still have the bulge and the spondy? Of course. But they cause me no pain now, and I can still play any sport I wish. Do I still get treated? Of course. At least once per month. Why should I stop if it keeps me pain free? Telling someone that it does no good if you have to keep going is like telling a person with mental illness to stop taking their meds since they have to everyday so obviously they are not helping. Would it make any sense to stop exercising once you got physically fit just because you had to "keep doing it?" Steve, I will not pretend to no more about labeling an x-ray than you do. That is not my specialty. In fact, I do not shoot x-rays in my office because I want it done by someone who does it all the time and I want it interpreted by a radiologist. We are trained in setting up and in interp, but I would much rather spend my time with my patients doing diagnosis and treatment then in a darkroom or lab. I have forgotten much of the labeling becuase I do not use it regularly. As for QME cert, you are correct that it is only 2 courses. However, you must also pass a state exam that is the same for all specialists. And it is a big deal to have it even though you ridicule it. In court cases it makes quite a difference to the judges and attorneys, but I guess you know more than they do because you "looked it up." Steve, obviously you are going to hold to your belief that we are "just PTs." Go ahead and cling to your incorrect beliefs, just as a racist will cling to his incorrect beliefs about other ethnicities, and use sterotypes and generalities as well as name calling to try to bring that which they fear or do not understand down, or to make an insecure person feel big. Your efforts are futile because as you scream in the dark, everyday more research comes out to support what we do, and more people seek us out and get relief, like I did. Of course it does not work for everyone, nothing does. But asserting that this makes us useless, would also serve to make surgeries and medications useless since they too do not always work. And SOME bad DCs do not make us ALL bad, just as SOME bad MDs or NEUROSURGEONS do not make them ALL BAD. And as one last note, our type of care is safe enough that we have the lowest malpractice insurance rates of any, as you would say, "doctor." It costs us around 1 to 2 thousand dollars per year for 1 million/3 million coverage. A good friend of mine who is an MD has to pay $75,000 per year for the same coverage. Why? Because unlike the earlier statement about "DCs mistakes," our treatment is very safe and rarely causes serious injury. I'm sure you want proof. Just look at the insurance rates. If we were hurting people, would our rates be so low? So I hope you find some way to deal with your hate. Perhaps you feel insecure for some reason, as you are the one bragging about your x ray tech degree and what you know about films. I never questioned your intelligence, though you attacked mine. Be proud of what you have accomplished and who you are, and focus on bettering yourself instead of spreading ignorance.

I work for Tenet and I know the real reason that my company left teh California reason Sherri

If I have a patient come in and his complaints are consistent with that of possible herniation, I will then order an AP lateral and usually bilateral obliques, as well as a coned-down view of the suspected area of herniation. If subjective symptoms are more consistent with something else, then I will order a limited series. That is in the ER. However, in Occ Med, I can only order an AP lateral initially. Usually for a series, I have to await okay from the injured worker's work comp carrier or case manager before I can send the patient for a full series or for a CT or MRI. Qualifying as a QME is not a one-time thing. There is lots required as far as CEUs and things are constantly changing within the ACOEM guidelines in California, requiring more classes and seminars in order to stay current. If we don't stay current, then the carriers don't pay. The Permanent Disability rating guidelines changed this year and not as worker-friendly as they were in 2004. Subjective findings have far less weight on a disability rating...the carriers and WCAB want to see objective evidence. There are far more physicians who commit Medicare fraud than there are chiropractors committing insurance fraud. That is one of the reasons Tenet Healthcare bailed out of California. Again, there are good and bad actors in all healthcare disciplines, so one should not generalize.

If I have a patient come in and his complaints are consistent with that of possible herniation, I will then order an AP lateral and usually bilateral obliques, as well as a coned-down view of the suspected area of herniation. If subjective symptoms are more consistent with something else, then I will order a limited series. That is in the ER. However, in Occ Med, I can only order an AP lateral initially. Usually for a series, I have to await okay from the injured worker's work comp carrier or case manager before I can send the patient for a full series or for a CT or MRI. Qualifying as a QME is not a one-time thing. There is lots required as far as CEUs and things are constantly changing within the ACOEM guidelines in California, requiring more classes and seminars in order to stay current. If we don't stay current, then the carriers don't pay. The Permanent Disability rating guidelines changed this year and not as worker-friendly as they were in 2004. Subjective findings have far less weight on a disability rating...the carriers and WCAB want to see objective evidence. There are far more physicians who commit Medicare fraud than there are chiropractors committing insurance fraud. That is one of the reasons Tenet Healthcare bailed out of California. Again, there are good and bad actors in all healthcare disciplines, so one should not generalize.

If I have a patient come in and his complaints are consistent with that of possible herniation, I will then order an AP lateral and usually bilateral obliques, as well as a coned-down view of the suspected area of herniation. If subjective symptoms are more consistent with something else, then I will order a limited series. That is in the ER. However, in Occ Med, I can only order an AP lateral initially. Usually for a series, I have to await okay from the injured worker's work comp carrier or case manager before I can send the patient for a full series or for a CT or MRI. Qualifying as a QME is not a one-time thing. There is lots required as far as CEUs and things are constantly changing within the ACOEM guidelines in California, requiring more classes and seminars in order to stay current. If we don't stay current, then the carriers don't pay. The Permanent Disability rating guidelines changed this year and not as worker-friendly as they were in 2004. Subjective findings have far less weight on a disability rating...the carriers and WCAB want to see objective evidence. There are far more physicians who commit Medicare fraud than there are chiropractors committing insurance fraud. That is one of the reasons Tenet Healthcare bailed out of California. Again, there are good and bad actors in all healthcare disciplines, so one should not generalize.

Kristian, I'm impressed, besides being having a doctors in the arts of Chiropractic you now tell us your a real QME. I went ahead and looked up the requirements to become and "QME" in California, (as you want to brag about having this so-called having higher training and certification). I figured you most have done another year or two in school and maybe had to work along side other "doctor" of the arts. Again I find myself laughing at your profession.To become this higher skilled QME (which you think is going to impress us all) you have to take two short seminars. #1. Basic workers compensation seminar 8 hours. #2. Disability Evaluation certification Seminar 36 hours. Wow a total of 44 hour of schooling to become a QME.The way you talk you would think or a orthopedist with this highly certified skilled. Even the nurse that agrees somewhat with you put you in the same category as PT and acupucturist. I'm not saying that your profession has never help anyone but I personaly think of you not as doctors but more as P.T. Let's really see how skilled you are.By the way I am a lic. x-ray tech. in california and have work and laugh with some will known chiropractor. Only one D.C that I have worked with do I respect and think highly of.And that is because he knows his place in the medical field and doesn't play these doctor games that 95% of you are pulling out there.Ok, here the question. I have a two view x-ray of the L-spine(I say 2 view because d.c use 2 views of the L-spine and M.D like 5 Views of there is a possible injury) And A.P. and a lateral I'm hoping you know what these term mean? there is a marker on both films that reads S.R.above or below the date. What does the "S.R" stand for? If you don't respone to this question then every one out there is going too know that you a Doctor of chiropratic doesn't now as much as a A.S. cert. X-ray tech.You can ask your other D.C. friends I have yet to find one that knows why it shot into the film. They must not teach x-ray theory very well at your Doctor school. Good luck with the question.

I am Nurse Practitioner in an Emergency Department, as well as seeing patients in the Occupational Health Clinic three days per week. Chiropractic cannot help everyone, some patients don't respond well to physical therapy, just as some patients don't respond to conventional treatment with pain meds and NSAIDS. Bad thing about back injuries is that injury to one disc can lead to degeneration of adjacent discs if not treated in a timely manner. In my opinion, the injured worker's biggest enemy is their work comp carrier. Many are a pain to deal with about getting appropriate treatment authorized (State Fund and Gallagher-Bassett are two that immediately come to mind), or they will delay treatment, while they find attempt to find a provider who will accept 18% below the Medicare fee schedule, instead of the Work Comp fee schedule. I will refer a patient for chiropractic treatment in some cases, as well as acupuncture treatments (which I have personally found to be quite helpful). And just to let you know, a chiropractor can be a PTP and a QME, as can an L.ac (Licensed Acupuncturist) on certain injuries. I can also be a PTP, though I do have to have an MD co-sign any prescriptions I write for some medications. There are crooked medical providers everywhere, so it isn't fair to generalize that all chiropractors are quacks. There are bad doctors everywhere, whether they have the designation of Medical Doctor or Doctor of Chiropractic. I could write a book about some of the things I saw at the VA Hospital.

Melanie, your story only proves my point that chiropractic treatment does not heal anyone. You stated in your letter that you had to keep going back for months or even years for treatment from your chiropractor to try get some relief from the pain of your low back but finally realized that this was only a waste of time. When my back hurts I can get some pain relief from useing "Bengay" or "icy hot" on the painful area. Does this mean Bengay or icy hot heal me? NO, not at all,just like the temporary relief that some get from chiropractic treatment. Feels good but doesn't fix the problem,and the medical problem is this there. You even stated that the chiro treatemnt stopped working, so you weren't cured. I was in the same boat as you my friend, the rodding, the fushion, the multiple back surgeries ect, SO I really do understand 100%. I was off work for over 10 years on social security disability, but I was able to find a treatment that really works. It's called selective nerve root blook treatment. Done by a MD. I have been back to work for over 3 years and am doing good. By the way, the only reason that some worker comp companies have D.C.'s treatment Patients with back pain is it cheaper for them to send them to a chiropractor for treatments then a real doctor.

I have to say that I really took offense to the remarks that people with back pain that seek treatment from a Chiropractor instead of an M.D. are either faking it or are people who just don't want to work because they must not be in "real" pain or else they would be going to an M.D.. While there may be some people that try that, by no means is that the case with everyone who seeks treatment from a Chiropractor. Those comments were highly insulting, very narrow minded and show that some people are very misinformed. Perhaps their biggest problem is that they just never met a really "good" chiropractor, or are perhaps an M.D. themselves or are in someway associated with the so called "legitimate" medical profession that looks down on Chiropractors. If chiropractic care is fake treatment for fake problems, then it is one of the longest running scams in history. The roots of chiropractic care can be traced all the way back to the beginning of recorded time. Writings from China and Greece written in 2700 B.C. and 1500 B.C. mention spinal manipulation and the maneuvering of the lower extremities to ease low back pain. Hippocrates, the Greek physician, who lived from 460 to 357 B.C., also published texts detailing the importance of chiropractic care. Chiropractors can and do help many people and I can personally attest to that fact. I injured my lower back in 1982 and again in 1988. I consulted with both an Orthopedic Surgeon and a Chiropractor and was diagnosed with a ruptured/herniated disc and pinched nerve. The surgeon wanted to operate right away while the chiropractor offered a course of fairly inexpensive ($35 ea) treatments. I was scared to death of spinal surgery so I opted to delay the surgery and went with the chiropractor. He saw me twice a week for four weeks then once every three or four months or whenever necessary if the pain became especially bad. There were times when I was able to go as long as six months between treatments. During this time I was able to continue to work full time at a job that I enjoyed and was paid extremely well for with excellent benefits. I may not have been completely out of pain but at least I was able to function on a daily basis. There eventually came a time when the Chiropractor said that my problems were beyond the abilities of his science and that he could no longer effectively relieve my pain. He suggested that I consider submitting to the surgery. I did so but thanks to my wonderful chiropractor I was able to avoid having the surgery for more than ten years and was able to keep working during that time!! I am just sorry that it wasn't longer because having the surgery was the worst mistake I ever made and changed my life forever. I have now had three operations and am worse off now than I was before the first operation. The first surgery involved a spinal fusion with Rogozinski rods and relieved most of my pain for about eighteen months but then it came back and was worse than before. This resulted in a second surgery to remove the hardware and some scar tissue which proved to offer no relief at all. By the time I had my third surgery, which had to be performed thru my abdomen because of all the scar tissue in my back, it was to remove three damaged discs and fuse my spine again. It was labeled as strictly "salvage surgery" to try to improve my quality of life, not as a cure because I had too much permanent damage for which there was/is no cure for. "Quality of life", what a joke! I live every single moment of every single day in extreme pain and have to rely on pain medication 24/7 just to keep me from putting myself out of my pain and misery permanently. By the way, thanks to the many medical doctors and pain clinics that insisted on bombarding my body with every narcotic on the market for four years in an attempt to relieve the pain, I am now extremely allergic to ALL narcotics and have to rely strictly on non-narcotic medications to lessen my pain. I say lessen because nothing I can take, or have ever taken, actually takes all of the pain away. I have had countless epidurals, tried the TENS unit and lost count of the mylograms, discograms, x-rays, EMG's, CAT scans and MRI's that have been done. I won't even go into all the "accidents" that happened during some of the tests and treatments that I received from the M.D.'s, that caused even more pain and problems. The cost of all of this--well I quit counting when it went over $150,000, and that was a long time ago. Just what did I get for all that money? I now have so much scar tissue in my back and nerve damage to my legs that I cannot even walk half a block much less do all the things I use to enjoy doing--water and snow sking, riding/showing horses, white water rafting, rock climbing, dancing and many other physical activities. Everyday activities that most people take for granted like grocery shopping, cleaning house, or even sleeping six or eight hours at a time are now major challenges for me. Being a single divorced mother trying to live on a disability income is a challenge all in itself. It doesn't take much of a brain to figure out that it would be much easier to live on the $50,000+ salary I would be bringing home from my old job, if I could still work, than it is to try and live on the $21,000 I receive on disability--not to mention all the benefits I lost, like medical, dental and vision insurance, drug coverage, life insurance and such. The dental insurance, if I still had it, would really come in handy now considering I have broken three of my teeth in my sleep because of gritting my teeth in pain not to mention the TMJ that I have developed since the first operation failed. Faking it--I think not!! Working at a job would be a heck of a lot easier than trying to get thru a day in pain and trying to pay the ever escalating bills on my disability income. Over the last few years, since having my first surgery I have met dozens and dozens of other people that have had back surgery and I can count on one hand the ones who have only undergone a single back surgery, most of which occured in the last two years. Most people have had on average three to five operations and some have had anywhere from ten to twenty operations. I am now facing surgery number four as the M.D.'s are telling me that I need another operation because the disc's above and below the previous fusion site are now shot and need fused too. Since I am told that this is a common problem after any spinal fusion then I guess they could go on operating until my spine was fused from the base of my skull to my tail bone. Of the reputable chiropractors that I know of, not one will touch me now because of all the operations I have had and I have enough sense to know to run the other way if one says they will. They are doctors of the science of chiropractic not miracle workers. What has been done to me cannot be undone by anyone--it is permanent! I truly feel that I would have been better off if I had never let an M.D. operate on me and I am sorry now that I ever did. But that is a mistake that I get to live with for the rest of my life. If anyone reading this is facing the possibility of spinal surgery then I hope that you will think long and hard about it, do a lot of research and seek out others that have already undergone such operations to hear their opinions and long term outcomes.

Steve, we are PTP for work comp. I have been on dozens of cases and I am a QME and able to perform disability ratings. My reports have been accepted in court as medically and legally sound. If a patient came to me with something is his eye or a laceration, I would refer him to the appropriate specialist. However, for cases of acute episodic low back pain, our treatment has been shown to be more effective both in terms of cost and patient satisfaction when compared to traditional medical or surgical approaches. In fact, statistically over 90% of all low back surgeries fail within 1 year after the procedure. It has its own diagnosis code called "failed low back surgery syndrome." I am sorry that your DC could not help you. We cannot help everyone.

Steve, we are PTP for work comp. I have been on dozens of cases and I am a QME and able to perform disability ratings. My reports have been accepted in court as medically and legally sound. If a patient came to me with something is his eye or a laceration, I would refer him to the appropriate specialist. However, for cases of acute episodic low back pain, our treatment has been shown to be more effective both in terms of cost and patient satisfaction when compared to traditional medical or surgical approaches. In fact, statistically over 90% of all low back surgeries fail within 1 year after the procedure. It has its own diagnosis code called "failed low back surgery syndrome." I am sorry that your DC could not help you. We cannot help everyone.

Steve, we are PTP for work comp. I have been on dozens of cases and I am a QME and able to perform disability ratings. My reports have been accepted in court as medically and legally sound. If a patient came to me with something is his eye or a laceration, I would refer him to the appropriate specialist. However, for cases of acute episodic low back pain, our treatment has been shown to be more effective both in terms of cost and patient satisfaction when compared to traditional medical or surgical approaches. In fact, statistically over 90% of all low back surgeries fail within 1 year after the procedure. It has its own diagnosis code called "failed low back surgery syndrome." I am sorry that your DC could not help you. We cannot help everyone.

Steve, we are PTP for work comp. I have been on dozens of cases and I am a QME and able to perform disability ratings. My reports have been accepted in court as medically and legally sound. If a patient came to me with something is his eye or a laceration, I would refer him to the appropriate specialist. However, for cases of acute episodic low back pain, our treatment has been shown to be more effective both in terms of cost and patient satisfaction when compared to traditional medical or surgical approaches. In fact, statistically over 90% of all low back surgeries fail within 1 year after the procedure. It has its own diagnosis code called "failed low back surgery syndrome." I am sorry that your DC could not help you. We cannot help everyone.

Kristain, I can't belive you really think a chiropractor could ever be the Primary treating "Physician" for a workers comp clinic. If a worker was to get a forgien object in their eye at work how would a Chropractor be able to treat it? If a patient with a laceration walks into the Primary D.C. office is the Chiropractor going to stitch up up the wound or let me guess, all he needs is a good adjustment to stop the bleeding (Ha HA).As a Physician Chiropractor how would you treat and infected wound with a patient that is running a high temp. Stop kidding yourself, your not a real doctor and almost the whole world agree with this statement. How many herniated disc how been healed by Chiropractic care, Studies how shown that even if a patient gets some relief from an adjustment it's only temporary.If you could really repair a herniated disc then why are there so many decompression surgeries done each year.I will tell you about the people that come to you and you do help.The fakers, the patient that might has some back pain and/or does not want too work anymore, but yet, when they complain and complain for months or even years and surgry is then mention to them they say "No way" and why do they say no way if it hurts so bad? Because there full of s**t. If your in that much pain you will do anything to get out of pain. I know this because I have had the surgery done after seeing a Chiropractor for 6 months. And wow once the pressure is off the nerves problem sloved. If my Chiropractor did is delayied me from getting porper treatment from a real doctor who could do smoething real for me. If Chiropractor are such real doctor how come you never see them in the E.R treating the sick and injuried.It so pathetic how you D.C.'s walk around calling each other Doctor even in school before you even gradutated. I know because my mom worked for LACC for 5 years and I heard all crap going on there day to day. example patients being injuried from the adjustments such as there brain stem reputured. Oh, and then lets talks about how much money you can make as a D.C, money, money, money.There's only two reasons a person becomes a chiropractor. The money they THINK they will make and the title Doctor.You need to face the facts that your not a REAL doctor and everyone know it.

Kristain, I can't belive you really think a chiropractor could ever be the Primary treating "Physician" for a workers comp clinic. If a worker was to get a forgien object in their eye at work how would a Chropractor be able to treat it? If a patient with a laceration walks into the Primary D.C. office is the Chiropractor going to stitch up up the wound or let me guess, all he needs is a good adjustment to stop the bleeding (Ha HA).As a Physician Chiropractor how would you treat and infected wound with a patient that is running a high temp. Stop kidding yourself, your not a real doctor and almost the whole world agree with this statement. How many herniated disc how been healed by Chiropractic care, Studies how shown that even if a patient gets some relief from an adjustment it's only temporary.If you could really repair a herniated disc then why are there so many decompression surgeries done each year.I will tell you about the people that come to you and you do help.The fakers, the patient that might has some back pain and/or does not want too work anymore, but yet, when they complain and complain for months or even years and surgry is then mention to them they say "No way" and why do they say no way if it hurts so bad? Because there full of s**t. If your in that much pain you will do anything to get out of pain. I know this because I have had the surgery done after seeing a Chiropractor for 6 months. And wow once the pressure is off the nerves problem sloved. If my Chiropractor did is delayied me from getting porper treatment from a real doctor who could do smoething real for me. If Chiropractor are such real doctor how come you never see them in the E.R treating the sick and injuried.It so pathetic how you D.C.'s walk around calling each other Doctor even in school before you even gradutated. I know because my mom worked for LACC for 5 years and I heard all crap going on there day to day. example patients being injuried from the adjustments such as there brain stem reputured. Oh, and then lets talks about how much money you can make as a D.C, money, money, money.There's only two reasons a person becomes a chiropractor. The money they THINK they will make and the title Doctor.You need to face the facts that your not a REAL doctor and everyone know it.

Kristain, I can't belive you really think a chiropractor could ever be the Primary treating "Physician" for a workers comp clinic. If a worker was to get a forgien object in their eye at work how would a Chropractor be able to treat it? If a patient with a laceration walks into the Primary D.C. office is the Chiropractor going to stitch up up the wound or let me guess, all he needs is a good adjustment to stop the bleeding (Ha HA).As a Physician Chiropractor how would you treat and infected wound with a patient that is running a high temp. Stop kidding yourself, your not a real doctor and almost the whole world agree with this statement. How many herniated disc how been healed by Chiropractic care, Studies how shown that even if a patient gets some relief from an adjustment it's only temporary.If you could really repair a herniated disc then why are there so many decompression surgeries done each year.I will tell you about the people that come to you and you do help.The fakers, the patient that might has some back pain and/or does not want too work anymore, but yet, when they complain and complain for months or even years and surgry is then mention to them they say "No way" and why do they say no way if it hurts so bad? Because there full of s**t. If your in that much pain you will do anything to get out of pain. I know this because I have had the surgery done after seeing a Chiropractor for 6 months. And wow once the pressure is off the nerves problem sloved. If my Chiropractor did is delayied me from getting porper treatment from a real doctor who could do smoething real for me. If Chiropractor are such real doctor how come you never see them in the E.R treating the sick and injuried.It so pathetic how you D.C.'s walk around calling each other Doctor even in school before you even gradutated. I know because my mom worked for LACC for 5 years and I heard all crap going on there day to day. example patients being injuried from the adjustments such as there brain stem reputured. Oh, and then lets talks about how much money you can make as a D.C, money, money, money.There's only two reasons a person becomes a chiropractor. The money they THINK they will make and the title Doctor.You need to face the facts that your not a REAL doctor and everyone know it.

Kristain, I can't belive you really think a chiropractor could ever be the Primary treating "Physician" for a workers comp clinic. If a worker was to get a forgien object in their eye at work how would a Chropractor be able to treat it? If a patient with a laceration walks into the Primary D.C. office is the Chiropractor going to stitch up up the wound or let me guess, all he needs is a good adjustment to stop the bleeding (Ha HA).As a Physician Chiropractor how would you treat and infected wound with a patient that is running a high temp. Stop kidding yourself, your not a real doctor and almost the whole world agree with this statement. How many herniated disc how been healed by Chiropractic care, Studies how shown that even if a patient gets some relief from an adjustment it's only temporary.If you could really repair a herniated disc then why are there so many decompression surgeries done each year.I will tell you about the people that come to you and you do help.The fakers, the patient that might has some back pain and/or does not want too work anymore, but yet, when they complain and complain for months or even years and surgry is then mention to them they say "No way" and why do they say no way if it hurts so bad? Because there full of s**t. If your in that much pain you will do anything to get out of pain. I know this because I have had the surgery done after seeing a Chiropractor for 6 months. And wow once the pressure is off the nerves problem sloved. If my Chiropractor did is delayied me from getting porper treatment from a real doctor who could do smoething real for me. If Chiropractor are such real doctor how come you never see them in the E.R treating the sick and injuried.It so pathetic how you D.C.'s walk around calling each other Doctor even in school before you even gradutated. I know because my mom worked for LACC for 5 years and I heard all crap going on there day to day. example patients being injuried from the adjustments such as there brain stem reputured. Oh, and then lets talks about how much money you can make as a D.C, money, money, money.There's only two reasons a person becomes a chiropractor. The money they THINK they will make and the title Doctor.You need to face the facts that your not a REAL doctor and everyone know it.

Sally think about it this way, your "Doctor" and the other DC are both not able to heal anyone. Thus they are both taking away from the patent the insurance funds needed to get real healing help. Your all sucking insurance money from the system that should go to real M.D.s, get over it! I love Kristan's line about in California a DC can be Primary Care in Workman's comp cases. LOL the only reason is for BILLING not for healing. If the DC correctly sees a (or on a QME review more likely) patient needs a lumbar fusion or a discectomy the DC can do nothing! LOL at DCs everywhere.

If you read Kristian's response she tells the truth! "Finally, a DC who says he can cure any illness is treating outside of the accepted scope of practice and is subject to disciplinary measures by the state board. This is not a condoned practice in the profession, but the example of how a few bad apples can give a bad impression." Back crackers DO NOTHING any PT can do but a PT has to work with an M.D. In fact a DC can do MORE harm then good for injured patients. How many degenerative discs have DC's EVER cured? Answer not ONE! How many multi level herniated, degenerative discs have DC's EVER manipulated back into place? Answer NONE! Not one documented case ever. How many cervical discs have been cured by a DC in a "whiplash" there claim to fame? Answer NONE! Chiropractic should be re-named Chiro-quack-tic. BTW Steve your town is spelled, Whittier home of a famous DC school. For eye opening laughs sit in on a few classes all about the money not the "healing arts". My father was / is (retired) a renown Neurosurgeon who specialized in spinal cases. One of his sayings was that "Chiropractor's failures put all eight of his kids through collage" Kristian by your own words if you CAN'T cure ANYONE of ANY ILLNESS why are you a DC? Answer MONEY! I want my ROR TV!

Kristian, If anyone is mistaken it's you. Please take a look again at what you can and can't do as a D.C. When you stated that blood draw, and injections are not limited too doctors but nurses have some license to do this you are so wrong. While it's true nurses are the ones in the office that draw blood, give injections and do the lab work it's NEVER done without and order from and M.D. Any nurse that would order and draw blood and or give and injectable medication without a doctors order that is M.D would find herself with big trouble with the state for pract. medicine without a lic. I have worked with some D.C. before and they were all jokes. They walk around in white coats calling each other doctor and giving EVERYONE the same treatment. Hot packs, Tens unit, adjustment, cold packs.This is done until the insurance money runs out or it's time to settle the case. And wow once the case is settled the patient is healed. Ha HA. If it makes you feel better to think of yourself as a doctor thats find, but we both know the only thing most D.C are good at is bull shitting the patient and collecting the insurance money. By the way. ON a 2 view xray a disc compessing into the spinal can. cannot be seen on a 2 view xray you need a CT to see this but most DC that I shot xrays for all claim to see this.

Steve, you are quite misinformed. Chiropractors are actual doctors and are recognized as physicians. We do not claim to be "MDs", as MDs are doctors of medicine, which is another discipline of health care. We are doctors of chiropractic. MDs are not the only profession with a copyright on the term doctor. The chiropractic program is not a PhD program, but actually a state and nationally recognized program that meets accredidation requirements. DCs must complete the same basic science courses as MDs, and then complete 4 years of training plus a clinical internship and externship with a nationally set # of hours in diagnosis, treatment, treatment planning, and case management. There are many other forms of treatment than just taking blood, doing injections, and writing prescriptions. A nurse can take blood and perform injections, so that task is obviously not uniwue to MDs. Finally, a DC who says he can cure any illness is treating outside of the accepted scope of practice and is subject to disciplinary measures by the state board. This is not a condoned practice in the profession, but the example of how a few bad apples can give a bad impression. I hope you will not let those rogues give you a continued misunderstanding. Chiropractic has been and continues to be validated by many case studies, and in many injuries it has been proven more effective than traditional medical treatment. Please do more research so that you can understand that you have been misinformed by someone about our profession. THank you In fact, in California where you live, chiropractors are allowed to be team doctors, primary treating physicians for worker's comp cases, and actually do

I think it's funny how some Chiropractor pass themselves off as medical doctors when all they really have is a Phd in chiropractic; this is why they are able to use to term "DOCTOR". If I got a Phd in music, or in education I would be called call a "doctor" also. Chiropractors are not medical doctors and that why they don't have the "M.D" after there names. Chiropractors can't write Rx's, give injuections or even draw blood.While there might be some benifits in there treatment are some going around claiming to be able to treat any illness give them a bad name.Remember just becuase a person calls himself doctor does not mean he or she is a medical doctor.Example- My Veterinarian is called "doctor" but you don't see people going to him for treatment

Hi Sally, From what you wrote this DC is committing insurance fraud. I am a chiropractor so I follow what happens when the Feds, and the insurance companies get these guys, they throw them in the slammer. One guy here in MN got 10 years for doing insurance fraud. It is people like this Svastis guy that gives the good chiropractors a bad name.